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Featured Theists: Atheism is a Religion?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by JChnsc19, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

    the Lord God was with His cherubs Genesis 3:24
    His cherubs [angels] know what is good and evil.

    Please take note that there was a cherub who became Satan Ezekiel 28:14
    These cherubs were created holy, powerful and invincible
    Yet, we have a case of Lucifer gone rogue with 1/3 of the cherubs Isaiah 14:12-15
    That is why God prevented Adam and Eve from eating the Tree of Life after sinning.
    If they did eat from it, then it would be a problem - He would have another form of fleshy devils
    Immortal and sinful in the heart.

    Eve was accountable, she know what to do - she had a choice to obey or not.
    God said "never touch that and never eat that - or you're dead" something like that
    Did she follow? Nope. In fact she gave some to her husband Adam.
    So what happened? They became bad hombres.
    badhombre.jpg
    Bad hombres needed to be kicked out of the Garden
    and probably build a nice big beautiful wall in the southern border [joke]
    just a cherub with a flaming sword Genesis 3:24
    otherwise they would be undying bad hombres.

    Instead, the Lord God promised Christ
    That Christ will be victorious over the devil
    and that Christ will be killed by the offspring of the devil
    in the process Genesis 3:14-16

    But the promise of Christ has to be realized in the future - far in the future.
    It would have been easier if it was a Thanos like snap in which His creation would disappear
    snap.jpg
    and start over as if nothing happened - and then we won't have something to discuss, right?

    But God is not human and does not change his mind. Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29
    What God said, is God - his words never fail [and the word is God] Luke 1:37

    There are things he said to man that must be given to man. Genesis 1:26-31
    For a while until Christ comes - separate the sheep from the goats Matthew 25:32
    That would be the Real End Game
     
  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    Harsh as it may sound, that is the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. John 8:40-45
    Either a man is a sheep or a goat. Matthew 25:31-46


    During ancient times, the sword is the rule of the game.
    It is a time that human rights are not recognize.
    The time when there are no international rules of engagement during war.
    Isn't that the history of mankind - war immemorial?
    That is why we have conquerors like Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Xerex of Persia and so forth.
    Who are by the way, have different beliefs - they have killed many as compared with the numbers killed by the Israelites.
    A criminal act becomes criminal if there is a law saying that the act is criminal.
    Further the law has limitations and jurisdictions.
    A law enacted during 1776 does not apply to acts committed in 1775 and the law does not extend beyond the jurisdiction of another country.
    A crime committed in Egypt is not punishable in Persia or in Greece or..
    sparta.jpg
    These are the basic tenets and principles but they don't have those before.
    So we complain they committed crimes against humanity.
    Say what? They have laws like that during that time? There you go.
    We cannot impose the law, when the law is absent or non existent.



    There are increasing wickedness because that is the signs of the times.
    Signs which the apostles of Jesus asked - what are the signs?

    evil.jpg

    The followers came to be alone with him. They said, “Tell us when these things will happen. And what will happen to prepare us for your coming and the end of time?”

    Jesus answered, “Be careful! Don’t let anyone fool you. Many people will come and use my name. They will say, ‘I am the Messiah.’ And they will fool many people. You will hear about wars that are being fought. And you will hear stories about other wars beginning. But don’t be afraid. These things must happen before the end comes. Nations will fight against other nations. Kingdoms will fight against other kingdoms. There will be times when there is no food for people to eat. And there will be earthquakes in different places. These things are only the beginning of troubles, like the first pains of a woman giving birth.

    “Then you will be arrested and handed over to be punished and killed. People all over the world will hate you because you believe in me. During that time many believers will lose their faith. They will turn against each other and hate each other. Many false prophets will come and cause many people to believe things that are wrong. There will be so much more evil in the world that the love of most believers will grow cold. But the one who remains faithful to the end will be saved. And the Good News I have shared about God’s kingdom will be told throughout the world. It will be spread to every nation. Then the end will come.

    new jerusalem.jpg
     
  3. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    Eternal life = Immortality

    What must I do to have eternal life? - that is the question raised Matthew 19:16

    Obey God's laws Matthew 19:17
    If your relatives prevent you from following, leave them Matthew 19:29
    Be godly Matthew 25:46
    Prevent yourself from sinning Mark 9:43; Mark 9:45
    Never fear persecutions Mark 10:30
    Believe and obey what the Lord Jesus says John 3:36
    This is eternal life - to believe that the Father alone is the only true God while Jesus Christ was sent John 17:3
    Be Christ sheep, be in Christ body John 10:28; Ephesians 5:23
    Faith and knowledge will bring eternal life Titus 1:2
    Being faithful the reward is eternal life James 1:12
    Do not be a murderer or a hater among God's people 1 John 3:15

    These are the requisites, miss one = fail James 2:10

    It is either salvation or condemnation
    There is no in between, no half way house, no purgatory
    And that is in the Bible

    That's from the Bible, not from my personal opinions.
    My opinions mean nothing.
     
  4. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    We were talking about love, though, not worship. I don't really even now what "worship" means. I have no sense of "worship" within me, that I am aware of.

    And regarding a "loving God", to me it's not about the reality of it, it's about the possibility of it. And about my wanting that possibility to be actual. For me, faith is not the presumption of "X" being true. It's the hope that "X" is true, put into action.
    As good a guess as any. The Bible does not intend to define God for us. Unfortunately, a lot of people want a definition, though, and so they grab hold of one or two of those poetic euphemisms you mentioned and force them to be their 'definition of god'. I, personally, much prefer the mystery.
    Without free will, our existence is as pointless as a universe without consciousness.
     
  5. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    Nothing can offer you eternal life, surely you can figure that out for yourself.
     
  6. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    Someone did for those who believe In Context
     
  7. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
    Staff Member Premium Member

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    I am not an athiest.
    What if you're a theist who believes in a single God with multiple personality disorder?

    Interesting. :thumbsup:
     
  8. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    Believing makes it real?
     
  9. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    Gen 3:24 says nothing about who God was with in his statements in Gen 3:22. It only says, "He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. God is certainly NOT like one of his Cherubs. Although, the "Angel of God" can have a double meaning. You are simply making an assumption, not a truth claim. Everything could have easily been avoided, if God had let Adam and Eve eat the fruit. It would have avoided everything that was to follow. It would have been unnecessary for God to create a Son to be killed(sacrificed). Also, there would be no need to kill all humans in a world-wide flood, or even more in the second coming. Finally, since Adam and Eve did eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, why weren't they and their future descendants omniscient? Why would evil still exist if they possessed the knowledge of good and evil, and ultimate wisdom? A true paradox. It is unfortunate that Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit from the Tree of Life FIRST. They might have been around today to validate their story. Funny how it worked out that way;).

    I think you are having a problem with not seeing the forest for the trees. So, please allow your mind to use fresh eyes to see the obvious. The stories in the Book of Genesis are NOT literal or in anyway historical. They are Allegories. They give us more insight into the mind of the Author than they do into the mind of a God. An allegory is a story that have two levels of narratives. There is the "surface level" with its cast of characters, a plot, cinematics, narrative and structure. Then, there is the "symbolic level" which carries the deeper meaning represented by elements in the "surface level". You don't really think that there was a 5th person in the Garden transcribing the speeches between God, the Devil, and Adam and Eve, do you? You don't think that he later told this story, and all subsequent stories as an eyewitness, do you? We have many places on the planet that predate the Garden of Eden. We also have domesticated animals and crops that also predate the Garden. Therefore, the Garden could not have been the place where all life originally began. It is only a story, and not to be taken literally.

    Considering the inerrant nature of the Bible, it is hard to find any consistencies in its claims(moral or ethical). No amount of creative logical gymnastics can obfuscate the plain and obvious truth. No book can ever be errant. No book can ever be the words of a God. No Book can ever know the nature or the mind of a God. But we can certainly believe in anything we want to believe in. Finally, you might see the irony in this. If for many, that death only represent an escape from suffering, disease, war, suffering, sickness, sin and violence, then why do these same people cling so hard to life? Why do they choose suffering over death?


    .
     
  10. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    Eternal life does not equal Immortality. The humble jellyfish has eternal life. But simply removing its water and food supply and it will die. But if it were immortal, it wouldn't matter what you did to it, it would still continue to live. Unfortunately, there is no evidence of eternal life. The oldest person on the planet is 122 years old. Hardly eternal. The only prerequisite that I see as essential is Dying first. The rest seem academic after that.

    Where in the Universe do the dead go? What image of the dead is represented and how? What are the properties of a soul(material or immaterial). Is a soul exempt from cause and effect, or any of the other physical laws? This Pandora's box and slippery slope, can only get more slippery from here.
     
  11. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Correction: Someone CLAIMED someone else did...
     
  12. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    What is there not to believe? 2 Corinthians 5:7
     
  13. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    It's hard to focus on this.
    What is your question?
    You wrote 3 paragraphs here and its a hard read.

    I'm looking for the line of thought.

    In such times, I could either look at the top or the bottom.
    I'll go for the bottom.

    Why do people cling so hard to life and why do they choose suffering over death?
    I really don't know, maybe because they fear the unknown.

    'I don't want to die
    Sometimes wish I'd never been born at all"

    - excerpt Bohemian Rhapsody - Freddie Mercury Oct 31 1975
     
  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    When we die, we die like the animals.

    There's nothing special to it.

    Ecclesiastes 3:19 New International Version (NIV)
    Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless.

    We sleep and we return to dust.

    Genesis 3:19 New International Version (NIV)
    By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
    until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
    for dust you are
    and to dust you will return
    .”

    But we are veering away from the main topic.
    Maybe we should wait for someone to open a topic about - Death.
     
  15. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    Where were we again? :eek:
     
  16. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter how much we wish, hope, believe, or want something to be, the apple on the tree will never fall as an orange. Is it possible? Yes, but absurdly improbable and very near impossible. No matter how much we wish, hope or want, no beheading victim will be joining us at work tomorrow. When we die, entropy and oxidation(not God) takes over. The energy used in creating life, will now be used in the creation of new life. Why would anyone fear death? We have all experienced non-life for 14.7 Billions of years before our birth. There was no pain, no suffering, and no conscious awareness of time and space? So why would we expect the same experience to cause pain and suffering? Unless someone can demonstrate the existence of a soul, an afterlife, or evidence of the dead suffering, I can only except what is clearly demonstrated. If there is any spiritual intervention after death, it will certainly be academic, since death is inevitable. Maybe we will become part of a universal consciousness, have a new subjective perspective, or even be reincarnated as a toad. We have no control, and we never will.

    Since the Bible does not define God, then any euphemism will be accurate, as well as irrelevant. I suppose "prefer the mystery", is just a euphemism for "willful ignorance".

    Objective evidence suggest that free will is only an illusion. The only control that we have is not our will power, but our won't power. We cannot control how we perceive reality, we can only control NOT to respond to what we perceive. Not how we DO respond to what we perceive. This is determined by our genetic makeup, and other positive and negative social feedbacks.

    Do you consider pointlessness as being subjective? I'm sure there are things that you consider pointless, and others may consider valuable and useful. It is relative. Do you think that a worm or an amoeba considers its life pointless? Its also relative. The Universe is material, not abstract. Therefore, it cannot be sentient and have a consciousness. That would be like saying that a shuffled deck of cards have a consciousness.
     
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  17. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. Clearly you understand that eternal life does not equal immortality. People cling to life because the body itself wants to survive. Barring being drugged, tricked(Russian roulette), the mind will always choose to survive. It is a trait hardwired by evolution. No matter how much you rationalize the positives of death, the body will always cling to life.

    Unless you were spontaneously aborted, life is a gift. Especially when considering the alternative.

    If you get a chance just post one post per paragraph. In the future I will keep my post brief.
     
  18. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    There's no time for us
    There's no place for us
    What is this thing that builds our dreams
    Yet slips away from us?
    Who wants to live forever?
    Who wants to live forever?
    There's no chance for us
    It's all decided for us
    This world has only one
    Sweet moment set aside for us
    Who wants to live forever?
    Who wants to live forever?
    Who?
    Who dares to love forever
    Oh, when love must die?
    But touch my tears with your lips
    Touch my world with your fingertips
    And we can have forever
    And we can love forever
    Forever is our today
    Who wants to live forever?
    Who wants to live forever?
    Forever is our today
    Who waits forever anyway?

    Songwriters: Brian May
    Who Wants to Live Forever lyrics © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC 1986

    Eternal life is about living forever.
    I think it is synonymous with "immortality" in a way
    Immortality in its truest sense is not experiencing death and living forever.
    The Bible sets the two choices - live forever or die forever
    Oh, people say - we really don't know that
    We don't, until it is too late.

    Daniel 12:2 New International Version (NIV)
    Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Where do you bet?
    On the black or the red?
    Not betting at all is a sure shame.
    I will take my chances than not taking chances at all.
    I know its real, not that I have seen it but there are prophecies written a long time ago that became true.
    How can I top that?
     
  19. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    These are really bad analogies. Absurdly bad.

    Let me pose a scenario.

    Let's say I choose to hope and trust in the idea that 'God' wants us all to serve our fellow humans to the best of our ability, because in so doing, all our lives will be improved. And because I have chosen to trust in this ideal, I try to act on it as best I can determine how, and am able.

    OK, ... so how does it matter that my 'God' may not exist, or may not be asking of me what I have chosen to trust God is asking of me? I still identify what I believe is an ideal purpose for myself, and I still gain sufficient reason and where-with-all to live according to this ideal as best I can.

    This is the value of living by faith. And we ALL do it to some extent, because we lack sufficient knowledge and/or surety to live any other way. It's how we move forward in our lives.
    Our ignorance is not "willful", it's inevitable, universal, and unremitting. None of us know if God exists or not, or even what "god's existence" means.: what it entails. Which is why none of this is even about whether or not God exists. It's about the POSSIBILITY, and how our engaging with that possibility can help us grow, and change, and even transcend ourselves.
     
  20. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Luke said that nothing can provide eternal life.

    You said that somebody did provide eternal life for those who believe.

    I said that it would be more accurate to say that somebody claimed that another person could provide eternal life, since the person who wrote the source was not the person making the claim.

    Of course, it would probably be most accurate to say the author of John CLAIMED that Jesus CLAIMED he could provide eternal life...

    So no evidence there that eternal life was ever actually provided. Just a bunch of claims it was.
     
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