The Written Oral Law?

[Freelance_Policeman]

Pardon my ignorance, as I've only begun reading the Talmud recently. But my question is, if Moses actually was given two Laws, one written and one oral, why would the rabbis who compiled the Mishna write down what was supposedly commanded by HaShem to be oral? To me it seems like they were more afraid of losing their oral traditions than breaking a commandment of HaShem. Could someone please explain these rabbis' actions?

To clarify on my position regarding the Mishna, I have to read it more before deciding on its authenticity. (Why I have doubts regarding that is a longer story. I don't reject it though; they're just minor concerns that will be the topic of another thread.) As to the Gemara, I don't accept as inerrant or infallible. I don't know if this is how most of Judaism feels about it or not. I'd appreciate some insight into this as well.

 

[Avi1001]

Hi FP, I will give you my thoughts on your questions. But I expect there will be widely varying ideas. The time between Moses and Misna was around 1,000 years, lots happens. What was originally oral, eventually becomes written. Sure, there is more to it than that, like for example, G-d's will, but lets not make it too complicated .

Now, with respect to the Misna being inerrant or infallible, as a reform Jew, I don't accept either of those. Not only for Talmud, but Torah as well. I think the whole deal is "G-d inspired", we were not given an operating manual. I am pretty sure the Orthodox may not agree.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Pardon my ignorance, as I've only begun reading the Talmud recently. But my question is, if Moses actually was given two Laws, one written and one oral, why would the rabbis who compiled the Mishna write down what was supposedly commanded by HaShem to be oral? To me it seems like they were more afraid of losing their oral traditions than breaking a commandment of HaShem. Could someone please explain these rabbis' actions?

What have you read about Talmud?

 

[Tarheeler]

Could someone please explain these rabbis' actions?

Judaism was in danger of dying out in the early centuries after the destruction of the Second Temple. Jewish practice was often banned in public, sages and rabbis were systematically arrested and either imprisoned or executed, and those that remained justifiably thought that the end of Judaism and the oral traditions were at risk of disappearing forever. This, coupled with the exile, helped to create a disjointed and scattered Jewish people with different schools starting to pop up in individual communities. Putting the Oral Law into writing created a permanent record that could be shared among the different communities and reduced the reliance on the traditional system of pupils leaning the Law by rote from their teachers.

In short, the decision to write it down was one of self-preservation.

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna | Jewish Virtual Library
Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
History Crash Course #39: The Talmud

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Growing up, when I would ask my father a question, his first response [when appropriate] was always: "Did you look it up?

I'm sorry, but I simply do not understand why a serious "Jewish Proselyte" would appeal to unknown people in a sub-forum before engaging in even the most rudimentary research.

 

[Levite]

Judaism was in danger of dying out in the early centuries after the destruction of the Second Temple. Jewish practice was often banned in public, sages and rabbis were systematically arrested and either imprisoned or executed, and those that remained justifiably thought that the end of Judaism and the oral traditions were at risk of disappearing forever. This, coupled with the exile, helped to create a disjointed and scattered Jewish people with different schools starting to pop up in individual communities. Putting the Oral Law into writing created a permanent record that could be shared among the different communities and reduced the reliance on the traditional system of pupils leaning the Law by rote from their teachers.

In short, the decision to write it down was one of self-preservation.

The Oral Law -Talmud & Mishna | Jewish Virtual Library
Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
History Crash Course #39: The Talmud

There's a lot correct in this. Added to that were the increasing risk of oral traditions being garbled as schools of thought moved farther away from one another and the Exile grew. And the shift in culture from an oral-heavy culture to a writing-heavy culture.

But also, the Rabbis shaped Oral Torah, and it evolved considerably under their auspices, and no doubt they thought it was best to record their teachings for the benefit of future generations, and not trust that fading oral transmission would adequately explain and justify what they did.

 

[CMike]

Pardon my ignorance, as I've only begun reading the Talmud recently. But my question is, if Moses actually was given two Laws, one written and one oral, why would the rabbis who compiled the Mishna write down what was supposedly commanded by HaShem to be oral? To me it seems like they were more afraid of losing their oral traditions than breaking a commandment of HaShem. Could someone please explain these rabbis' actions?

To clarify on my position regarding the Mishna, I have to read it more before deciding on its authenticity. (Why I have doubts regarding that is a longer story. I don't reject it though; they're just minor concerns that will be the topic of another thread.) As to the Gemara, I don't accept as inerrant or infallible. I don't know if this is how most of Judaism feels about it or not. I'd appreciate some insight into this as well.

As you said Moses was given two Torahs on Mt. Sinai one written and one oral.

The reason it was written down was because the rabbis were afraid that it may be changed unintentionally in the oral telling of the law.

It's like playing telephone. If it's told person to person it can be changed by mistake.

Therefore, the rabbis wrote it down.

The oral law is very important and it's critical in implementing the written law.

Also G-d gave a commandment that we must follow the laws even from the Talmud, and not to change it neither right or left.

Deuterenomy 17: 11. According to the law they instruct you and according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left.


Deuteronomy - Chapter 17 (Parshah Shoftim) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

 

[CMike]

Growing up, when I would ask my father a question, his first response [when appropriate] was always: "Did you look it up?

I'm sorry, but I simply do not understand why a serious "Jewish Proselyte" would appeal to unknown people in a sub-forum before engaging in even the most rudimentary research.

I see nothing wrong with it, and I'm glad he did it.

There is nothing wrong ever with asking questions.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nor is there anything wrong with responsible due diligence.

 

[Freelance_Policeman]

Growing up, when I would ask my father a question, his first response [when appropriate] was always: "Did you look it up?

I'm sorry, but I simply do not understand why a serious "Jewish Proselyte" would appeal to unknown people in a sub-forum before engaging in even the most rudimentary research.

Because...um...I would like to hear various opinions?

Everyone else, thank you. Sorry I wasn't clear; I do know about the exile, and how it led to the humongous task of writing down the Talmud. My question was, why did they feel it was so neccesary to write down what was given as an oral teaching? I realize my intellectual inferiority to these men, but in my humble opinion, it would seem better to trust that God would protect it than to alter his commandments.

I apologize again for my lack of clarity.

 

[Levite]

My question was, why did they feel it was so neccesary to write down what was given as an oral teaching? I realize my intellectual inferiority to these men, but in my humble opinion, it would seem better to trust that God would protect it than to alter his commandments.

There are no doubt a lot of explanations that might be given for this, and I'm sure you'll hear several.

The first thing that comes to mind here is the Rabbinic principle ein somechin al ha-nes (we don't rely on miracles). If someone is in danger, or even if someone's property is in danger, we don't sit back and do nothing, because we trust that God will step in and save them, or prevent the damage. We act to rescue the person. In fact, if a person is in real danger, we rescue them even if to rescue them we have to break Shabbat or violate the laws of Yom Kippur. We never rely on miracles for such things.

If the Torah was in danger of being forgotten, or otherwise being lost to the people, it was entirely proper to do whatever necessary to save it as best as possible.

 

[Freelance_Policeman]

There are no doubt a lot of explanations that might be given for this, and I'm sure you'll hear several.

The first thing that comes to mind here is the Rabbinic principle ein somechin al ha-nes (we don't rely on miracles). If someone is in danger, or even if someone's property is in danger, we don't sit back and do nothing, because we trust that God will step in and save them, or prevent the damage. We act to rescue the person. In fact, if a person is in real danger, we rescue them even if to rescue them we have to break Shabbat or violate the laws of Yom Kippur. We never rely on miracles for such things.

If the Torah was in danger of being forgotten, or otherwise being lost to the people, it was entirely proper to do whatever necessary to save it as best as possible.

Oh, OK. I understand now, I think. I've heard this before; I think I needed to hear it in a different way for some reason.

Thanks!