The Word

[Clear]

Hi The Annointed;

It makes sense that you mixed up Clement of rome (born 35 a.d) with Clement of Alexandria (born 150 a.d.) but it makes no sense to leave the intent of the O.P. and start talking about Catholic Popes of a different era unless there is some relevance or reason to do so. Even then, I suggest you start your own thread rather than attempt to discuss it here.

Clear
ειειειτζω

 

[Nova2216]

1Cor 1:10,

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Rom 15:5,
Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:


That is not how I interpret those verses. True, Paul was doing more than hoping, but he was not commanding

Beseech: ask (someone) urgently and fervently to do something; implore; entreat. beseech means - Google Search

Moreover, I do not believe those verses from Paul are related to the verses on John 14. They are Jesus speaking on a wholly different subject. I do not understand how you tie them together, what you think their connection is?

You said - "does not mean it will be possible."

Paul would not have said those word if it were not possible, for he would have been lying.

Which would mean Jesus lied also b/c Paul was teaching the words of Christ (1Cor.14:37)


(Jn 14:26) relates to each and every scripture which Paul wrote.

That's how they remembered the words of Jesus they wrote in the epistles.


Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.



Thanks

 

[Nova2216]

There are 1000s of ways to misinterpret the word of God (Mt.22:29).

There is only one way to interpret the scriptures correctly. (1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16-19).

 

[The Anointed]

Paul was hoping that that Christians would all speak the same thing, and that there would be be no divisions among and that they would be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment, but hoping for something does not mean it will be possible. As long as there are humans, humans will disagree, because no two people think exactly alike and even the same person will not always be speaking the same thing at the same time.

As I said before, there can be many meanings to the same verses, and many meanings can be correct, as people look at the verse from another perspective.

For example, you said:
What does this mean?

John 14:28,

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Looks to me like God is greater than Jesus.

As I interpret that verse, I think the primary message from Jesus is that He is going away and He will come again, and if we love Him we should be happy about that.

The second part of the verse -- because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I -- is just an afterthought, not the main point Jesus sought to convey.

Moreover, in order to really understand what Jesus was getting at, John 14:28 needs to be read in the context of the surrounding verses. I have my own interpretation of what these verses mean, and they are related to other verses in John 15, 16 and 17.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

And all, that came out of the mouth of Jesus, were the words of our savior, who put his spirit/words into the mouth of Jesus and commanded him what to say in 'HIS NAME,' as revealed in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19. Where the Lord God our savior said to Moses; “I will send them a prophet just like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything that I command him to say. And whoever will not give heed to MY WORDS which he will speak in MY NAME, I will surely punish.”

Peter reveals who that prophet was, when in Acts 3: 12; in reference to the man Jesus, Peter says; “For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will send you a prophet just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc.”

Did the people of his day believe that the man Jesus was some God, who had been born of a virgin? Of course not, the Jews who lived in the day of Jesus, knew that God had said to Moses that he would choose a man from among the Israelites and send him to speak in his name, and the people of his day knew that HE was the man that God had chosen from among the Israelites and sent to speak in his name, when on his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, they cried out: “BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.”

 

[Clear]

What does this mean?

John 14:28,

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
​

Looks to me like God is greater than Jesus.

God bless

​

I like rrobs point that there is a hierarchy inside the relationship of God the Father and the Messiah, his son. This is true in multiple ways such as in the early Christian worldviews on Authority.

Early Judeo-Christian literature describes a Hierarchy where ultimate authority remains with God the Father who then delegates to others (including his son Jesus, or Prophets) the specific degree of authority he desires them to have. "No man takes this authority or it’s honor unto himself."

Individuals do not HAVE God’s authority to act in the name of God on any other basis other than delegation.

Consider the principle that Jesus did NOT possess the same level of authority as his Father did.

For example: When asked by his disciples to allow them to sit next to him in heaven, Jesus declined and defers to another will, that of his Father : " ...Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. (Matthew 20:23)

Jesus does NOT take unto himself the same authority as the Father, but admits the father is greater : “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)


THE FATHER COMMANDS AND SENDS THE SON. THE SON IS OBEDIENT TO THE FATHER, (THE SON NEVER SENDS OR COMMANDS THE FATHER)

“But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence. ( John 15:31)

The ancient christians understood that God the Father delegates to Jesus and others, whatever level of authority he desires and they understood this principle. Jesus did NOT "anoint himself" with divine power, but GOD the Father anointed him. Thus it was spoken “ How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. (Acts 10:38)

It is NOT Jesus who “raised up himself”, but God the Father raises him : “And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. Cor 6:14

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead Gal 1:1

“...how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he [the father] raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess 1:9-10

Christians spoke of the power of God “ Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,.... 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Eph 1:20-22; “ It is God the Father who gives jesus authority; who sends Jesus and whom Jesus obeys.

"...the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Cor 11:3

Not only does Jesus have less authority than his Father, but he has less knowledge than his Father as well. In speaking of the future, Jesus admits : “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mark 19:32) The father knows, but Jesus does not.

Not only does Jesus have less authority and less knowledge than God the Father, but it is Jesus, who is servant of the father. This was very clear in the earliest Christianities.

“Let all the nations know that you are the only God, “that Jesus Christ is your servant, and that “we are your people and the sheep of your pasture.” (1 Clement 59:4)

They spoke of the Father as “the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ, through whom he called us from darkness to light, ....among all of them have chosen those who love you through Jesus Christ, your beloved Servant, through whom you instructed us, sanctified us, honored us. (1 Clement 59:2-3)

The earliest Judao-christian understood and spoke of “...the all-seeing God and Master of spirits and Lord of all flesh, who chose the Lord Jesus Christ,. 1 Clement 64:1;

This choosing of Jesus by the LORD GOD was a clear and consistent theme in most of the earlier texts AND the doctrine becomes clearer the older the text as one approaches the time of Christ. For example : Enoch speaks of this time period when in vision of the pre-mortal heaven.

"...2 At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the Before-Time .... 3 even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. 4 He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall.” (1st Enoch 48:1-7)

It is God the Father who gives Jesus any important title and position and assignments.

Thus Bartholomew relates that “Jesus said to him: “Bartholomew, the Father named me Christ, that I might come down on earth and anoint with the oil of life everyone who came to me.” The Gospel of Bartholomew CH IV


Authority is an implicit principle within all sacred histories that I am aware of :

The Jews describe the “King” that “shall reign” (Jer 23:5) and upon whose “shoulder” his “government” is to rest (Isa 9:6). If Jesus is given a “dominion...and a kingdom” (Dan 7:14) and is to be a “king over all the earth”, then his government will have authority. In Jesus day, even the Jews recognized that “he taught them as one having authority” (matt 7:29 & Mk 1: 22).

It matters that Jesus really did have “power on earth to forgive sins”. (Mtt 9:6). The Jews understood that if Jesus had no authority to preach, then they had no obligation to obey Jesus. Yet, if Jesus was telling the truth when he finally claimed “by what authority I do these things” (Mtt 21:24), then the Lord God HAD given him authority. Jesus isn’t simply "demanding" as a scribe or pharisee, but rather “with authority commandeth he.” (Mk 1:27)

Jesus doesn’t simply have 12 “groupies” that hang around, and they do NOT claim to obtain their apostolic authority by “reading a book” (O.T.) or simply “believing in Jesus”, but rather, “he ordained twelve”. (Mk 3:14) Just as Jesus is given Authority by his FATHER and says “I am come in my Father’s name” (Jn 5:43), it is ONLY after receiving authority from Jesus that the twelve may act with authority.

Jesus himself does NOT assume to do these things on his own, but HIS authority is given to him by HIS Father as Jesus said “All things are delivered to me of my Father” (Lk 10:22) and the “Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” (John 3:35). Not only is Jesus SENT by the Father (Jn 7:29, 8:29; 17:18; 20:21, etc), but Jesus does not even take it upon himself to generate doctrines, but rather he admits “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.” (Jn 7:16). Jesus does not take upon himself the right to Judge men, but it is his FATHER who “hath committed all judgment unto the Son". (John 5: 22, 27; Jude 1: 15) Jesus is a servant of ANOTHER, who’s commandments he follows, thus he say “This commandment have I received of my Father” (John 10: 18; 12: 49; 14: 31).

Jesus does not become “Lord both of the dead and living.” (Rom 14:9) by inherent authority, but through authority given him by his FATHER, Jesus was “anointed” (Acts 4: 27) and “ordained” (Acts 10: 42; 17: 31) to his tasks. The early Christians were not ignorant that Jesus was given authority by another, thus they say that God “has spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed". (Heb 1:2), he was ”Called of God an high priest" (Heb 5:10)

It is not just the New Testament, but the Old Testament, the Apocrypha, the Nag Hamadi, the 40 day and DSS literature, is rife with specific references to the need for authentic authority to act for God.

Thanks for the reminding insight @rrobs

Clear
ειειφιδρω

 

[The Anointed]

I like rrobs point that there is a hierarchy inside the relationship of God the Father and the Messiah, his son. This is true in multiple ways such as in the early Christian worldviews on Authority.

Clear
ειειφιδρω

"No man takes this authority or it’s honor unto himself."

Hebrews 5: 5-6; In the same way, Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest. Instead, God said to him: “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” 6 He also said in another place, “You will be a priest for ever, in the priestly order of Melchizedek.”

" ...Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. (Matthew 20:23)

This was spoken by Jesus to the sons of his sister Salome the wife of Zebedee and mother to the two nephews of Jesus, James and young John.

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

These were the words of our Lord God and Savior, who chose the man Jesus from among the Israelites, and filled HIM with his spirit and sent him to speak ‘HIS WORDS’ to the people in ‘HIS NAME.’

“But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence. ( John 15:31)

Again, these were the words of “The Son of Man’ who chose the man Jesus from among the Israelites, and who filled HIM with his spirit and sent him to speak ‘HIS WORDS’ to the people in ‘HIS NAME.’

“ How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. (Acts 10:38)

Correct! The Lord God our savior, who had filled with his spirit. the man Jesus, who was Emmanuel, which means ‘God is with us.’

“And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. Cor 6:14

And it was the Lord God our savior, whose earthly temple was the man Jesus, who he had filled with his spirit, who said through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead Gal 1:1

1 Timothy 1; From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of God our savior and Christ Jesus our hope.

“...how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he [the father] raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess 1:9-10

How you turned to our Lord God and savior, ‘The Son of Man,’ whose spirit descended upon the man Jesus on the day he was baptized, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my son, TODAY I have become your Father.” Who raised his chosen Heir and successor, (The man Jesus) from death, and who is now incontestably divine and sits in the throne of our Father, Rev 3: 21; from where he invites all who like himself, are able to win the victory over the ruler of this world, to sit beside him in his heavenly throne. Jesus, who is to come and deliver us from the wrath to come.

Acts 17: 31; For he (The Lord God our savior) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with Justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

“ Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,.... 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Eph 1:20-22;

For the scripture says, “God put all things under his feet.” It is clear, of course, that the words “all things” do not include God himself, who puts all things under Christ. 1 Corinthians 15: 27.

"...the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Cor 11:3

I’ll go along with that.

“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mark 19:32)

I’ll go along with that also.

Not only does Jesus have less authority and less knowledge than God the Father, but it is Jesus, who is servant of the father. This was very clear in the earliest Christianities.

“Let all the nations know that you are the only God, “that Jesus Christ is your servant, and that “we are your people and the sheep of your pasture.” (1 Clement 59:4)

They spoke of the Father as “the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ, through whom he called us from darkness to light, ....among all of them have chosen those who love you through Jesus Christ, your beloved Servant, through whom you instructed us, sanctified us, honored us. (1 Clement 59:2-3)

The earliest Judao-christian understood and spoke of “...the all-seeing God and Master of spirits and Lord of all flesh, who chose the Lord Jesus Christ,. 1 Clement 64:1;

I put no stock in anything said by the popes of the worthless shepherd that God raised up in the land, after he was paid the majestic wage of thirty pieces of silver, KJV; Zechariah 12: 11-17, those worthless shepherds who claim to be Christ on earth. But the fact that Jesus was a servant, I accept, as revealed in Acts 3: 13; “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.”

But the footy is soon to start on TV, so I must leave you for now.

 

[eik]

The Greek word "logos" is used 256 times in the New Testament. As far as I can tell, with the exception of John 1:1 & 14, there would be few Christians that would say any of them refer to Jesus. They all are clearly seen as meaning a well thought out and reasoned communication using words, which happens to be the actual main definition in any Greek lexicon.

What makes it's usage in John indicate it means "Jesus?" Why couldn't it be consistent with all the other 252 usages and mean God's thoughts as spoken to mankind, that He had a plan in mind from the beginning which he revealed in the scriptures and which Jesus followed to the letter as per John 1:14?

John 1:9-13 and the preceding reference to John the Baptist in John 1:6-8 identifies the Logos with Jesus.

Before the gospel of John, "Logos" as a Greek word had already by the times of the gospels a very long provenance of being utilized in Greek religious contexts, although the actual shade of meaning varied considerably.

Specifically the Stoics (early 3rd century BC) spoke of the logos spermatikos (the generative principle of the Universe) which foreshadows related concepts in Neoplatonism (3rd century AD) from which philosophical Trinitarianism arose. Therefore it would be wrong to limit the scope of logos to just "words" and it would be wrong to limit the religious use of "logos" to Christianity. It had a wide application.

In the scriptural context, the shade of meaning is perhaps uniquely defined by its reference to Jesus, to the throne of God and to the "word of God." John says that "through [the Logos] all things were made (John 1:2) and this is echoed by Paul. 1 Cor 8:6 "And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist."

 

[Brian2]

The Greek word "logos" is used 256 times in the New Testament. As far as I can tell, with the exception of John 1:1 & 14, there would be few Christians that would say any of them refer to Jesus. They all are clearly seen as meaning a well thought out and reasoned communication using words, which happens to be the actual main definition in any Greek lexicon.

What makes it's usage in John indicate it means "Jesus?" Why couldn't it be consistent with all the other 252 usages and mean God's thoughts as spoken to mankind, that He had a plan in mind from the beginning which he revealed in the scriptures and which Jesus followed to the letter as per John 1:14?

John 1:1,14 cannot be taken in isolation. Other scriptures show a prehuman Jesus who was more than God's thoughts and was a living being.

 

[The Anointed]

John 1:9-13 and the preceding reference to John the Baptist in John 1:6-8 identifies the Logos with Jesus.

Before the gospel of John, "Logos" as a Greek word had already by the times of the gospels a very long provenance of being utilized in Greek religious contexts, although the actual shade of meaning varied considerably.

Specifically the Stoics (early 3rd century BC) spoke of the logos spermatikos (the generative principle of the Universe) which foreshadows related concepts in Neoplatonism (3rd century AD) from which philosophical Trinitarianism arose. Therefore it would be wrong to limit the scope of logos to just "words" and it would be wrong to limit the religious use of "logos" to Christianity. It had a wide application.

In the scriptural context, the shade of meaning is perhaps uniquely defined by its reference to Jesus, to the throne of God and to the "word of God." John says that "through [the Logos] all things were made (John 1:2) and this is echoed by Paul. 1 Cor 8:6 "And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist."

Let me repeat.

The root to the word “BRAHMAN” originally meant “SPEECH”, much the same as the “LOGOS” is said to mean ‘WORD.

Shabda Brahman From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shabda OR SHABDA STANDS FOR ‘WORD’ MANIFESTED BY SOUND [VERBAL]

Bhartrhari speaks about the creative power of shabda, the manifold universe is a creation of Shabda Brahman

The Rig Veda states that Brahman extends as far as Vāc (R.V.X.114.8), and has hymns in praise of ‘SPEECH AS THE CREATOR.’

The Greek word “LOGOS” which has been translated as “WORD”, should be seen as ‘The thoughts in the mind which are to be expressed.

The term, “LOGOS” pertains to the very plan from the outset. [The creation of a universal body in which a Supreme mind or personality of Godhead to that body, develops.] In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vach.' Vach means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vach has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as a thought, not as the spoken word or speech.

John 1: 1; In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was God. And the supreme personality or controlling mind to have developed within the invisible eternal body of ever evolving information, was “THE LIGHT OF MAN” All the information, knowledge, wisdom and insight, gained from the body of mankind, the MOST HIGH in the previous creation, who was the Light and life of that ever-growing body of information, which is called God. All things came into existence through him, by him and for him. Without him, nothing exists.

You the invisible mind that has developed within that created body of flesh and blood, are the controlling godhead to that body, with which you are one being, [body, soul and spirit]. But our words or our speech, is merely the expression of the thoughts that are stored in the minds that are we.

The Logos/word, should be seen as the gathered information of past aeons that is waiting to be expressed. The LOGOS is in fact, the invisible living universal mind, in which is gathered all of the information of every universal body throughout all eternity and should be seen as the essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates, and to which all must return.

The term, "THE WORD OF GOD," pertains to the sense that is identical to the term “LOGOS” or the mould. The mould by which the whole sense of a thing is given. In other words, the very plan from the outset. In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vach.' Vach means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vach has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as a thought, not as the spoken word or speech.

The plan from the outset of the conception of each generation of the universe, is to develop within each generation, who each occupy their own position in space-time, a Supreme Personality of Godhead to that universal body, which is a son and extension of the eternal evolving Logos.

We humans, may express in our spoken words, all the information that has been gathered through the senses of our bodies in the creation of the invisible minds or spirits that are “WE”. Our word is the expression of “Who we are.” Your words are the expression of the spirit that is “YOU” the mind.

But the “LOGOS=WORD” and BRAHMAN=SPEECH” which are the gathered universal information=spirit of the aeons, express the information that has been gathered to the universal soul as another universal body, which is in the image and likeness to the previous universe, [The Resurrection] in which the eternal Spirit or mind has and can, continue to evolve.

 

[eik]

The term, “LOGOS” pertains to the very plan from the outset. [The creation of a universal body in which a Supreme mind or personality of Godhead to that body, develops.] In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vach.' Vach means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vach has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as a thought, not as the spoken word or speech.

Why do we have to defer to pagan Hinduism to understand the bible?

John 1: 1; In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was God. And the supreme personality or controlling mind to have developed within the invisible eternal body of ever evolving information, was “THE LIGHT OF MAN” All the information, knowledge, wisdom and insight, gained from the body of mankind, the MOST HIGH in the previous creation,

Where does the bible say anything about a previous creation?

who was the Light and life of that ever-growing body of information, which is called God. All things came into existence through him, by him and for him. Without him, nothing exists.

You the invisible mind that has developed within that created body of flesh and blood, are the controlling godhead to that body, with which you are one being, [body, soul and spirit]. But our words or our speech, is merely the expression of the thoughts that are stored in the minds that are we.

In other words, words express our principles.

The Logos/word, should be seen as the gathered information of past aeons that is waiting to be expressed. The LOGOS is in fact, the invisible living universal mind, in which is gathered all of the information of every universal body throughout all eternity and should be seen as the essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates, and to which all must return.

Pantheism. Taosism may be.

The term, "THE WORD OF GOD," pertains to the sense that is identical to the term “LOGOS” or the mould. The mould by which the whole sense of a thing is given. In other words, the very plan from the outset. In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vach.' Vach means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vach has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as a thought, not as the spoken word or speech.

The plan from the outset of the conception of each generation of the universe, is to develop within each generation, who each occupy their own position in space-time, a Supreme Personality of Godhead to that universal body, which is a son and extension of the eternal evolving Logos.

Gnosticism.

We humans, may express in our spoken words, all the information that has been gathered through the senses of our bodies in the creation of the invisible minds or spirits that are “WE”. Our word is the expression of “Who we are.” Your words are the expression of the spirit that is “YOU” the mind.

But the “LOGOS=WORD” and BRAHMAN=SPEECH” which are the gathered universal information=spirit of the aeons, express the information that has been gathered to the universal soul as another universal body, which is in the image and likeness to the previous universe, [The Resurrection] in which the eternal Spirit or mind has and can, continue to evolve.

Total claptrap without any support from the bible.

 

[The Anointed]

Why do we have to defer to pagan Hinduism to understand the bible?



Where does the bible say anything about a previous creation?


In other words, words express our principles.


Pantheism. Taosism may be.


Gnosticism.


Total claptrap without any support from the bible.

Why do we have to defer to pagan Hinduism to understand the bible?

And you think that God only spoke to the Jews, which are but one of the thirteen tribes of Israel that have been scattered throughout the nations of the world, do you?

Where does the bible say anything about a previous creation?

Well we know that when this universe disappears as revealed by 2 Peter 10; "But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that Day the heavens will disappear with a shrill noise, the heavenly bodies will burn up and be destroyed, and the earth with everything in it will vanish." And we are told that God will create for us a new heavens and a new earth, in other words a new universe

And knowing that God spoke to all his children and not only to the Jews, I believe our ancient ancestors, who believe in an eternal oscillating universe.

According to the ancient cultures, and even our scientists today are beginning to realise that we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time, a living universal being who is all that exists, and in who, all that is, exists. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

Total claptrap without any support from the bible.

If you choose to rely on the few limited books of the canon that the Roman church of Emperor Constantine established in the fourth century as all the knowledge that you need to understand this eternal and boundless cosmos, which is the logos made manifest, then I pity you young fellow.

 

[Nova2216]

One cannot separate Jesus from His words (Jn 12:48).

This shows the power of His word and authority of Christ.

Lu 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

 

[eik]

Why do we have to defer to pagan Hinduism to understand the bible?

And you think that God only spoke to the Jews, which are but one of the thirteen tribes of Israel that have been scattered throughout the nations of the world, do you?

According to this article, http://www.sources.li/HALAH.pdf, the Jews were deported by the Assyrians to the Volga region in Russia, not India. Also to the land of the Medes.

Where does the bible say anything about a previous creation?

Well we know that when this universe disappears as revealed by 2 Peter 10; "But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that Day the heavens will disappear with a shrill noise, the heavenly bodies will burn up and be destroyed, and the earth with everything in it will vanish." And we are told that God will create for us a new heavens and a new earth, in other words a new universe

But this is going to be inhabited by people with spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15) so won't be anything like the current universe.

And knowing that God spoke to all his children and not only to the Jews, I believe our ancient ancestors, who believe in an eternal oscillating universe.

According to the ancient cultures, and even our scientists today are beginning to realise that we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time, a living universal being who is all that exists, and in who, all that is, exists. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

In scriptural terms, this would amount to gnosticism (i.e. the promotion of speculative knowledge or rather just speculation itself over biblical teachings). The bible has to be doctrinally self-interpreting. I won't allow foreign elements to interpret its doctrine.

Total claptrap without any support from the bible.

If you choose to rely on the few limited books of the canon that the Roman church of Emperor Constantine established in the fourth century as all the knowledge that you need to understand this eternal and boundless cosmos, which is the logos made manifest, then I pity you young fellow.

I'll admit the apocrypha and anything else from the Jew, but Christ did say "Salvation is from the Jews" Jn 4:22.

 

[rrobs]

Oh, we like explaining.

If one tries to pin it down, I tend to go with 'of one accord, perfectly', but I think that falls short. It's deeper than only agreement. They are truly together. (regarding other verses, every instance of 'one' doesn't have to carry the same sense in varied situations.

The simplest reading that seems right is 'in one accord', but it seems to me, personally, that with Christ, it goes deeper. It's not only in one accord, but more I think. But we don't have an ability to encompass or define all about God with our words.

I think you are right. "In one accord" alone does not describe the real depth of the unity Jesus had with his Father. I think of it as being in one accord on steroids (the accord on steroids, not us ), being of one accord to the nth degree, being of mega-accord, etc.

God bless

 

[rrobs]

Paul was hoping that that Christians would all speak the same thing, and that there would be be no divisions among and that they would be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment, but hoping for something does not mean it will be possible.

I see your point but I hope yo don't mind my pointing out that you seem to be adding something that just isn't there. Let's look at it again.

1Cor 1:10,

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
​

I'm not sure where I see Paul was "hoping" they would be of the same mind. He's sincerely asking us to do it. Just because we can't manage to do that doesn't mean we should make excuses. If we are not of the same mind, we should get of the same mind. How? Shedding tradition in favor of the pure words of God, the one's He purified 7 times.

Phil 2:2,

Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.
​

1Pet 3:8,

Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:
​

Phil 3:16,

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
​

I don't see any element of hope in any of these verses either. They all make an incredibly simple assertion, i.e., God does not want 40,000+ different denominations.

God bless

 

[rrobs]

I like rrobs point that there is a hierarchy inside the relationship of God the Father and the Messiah, his son. This is true in multiple ways such as in the early Christian worldviews on Authority.

Early Judeo-Christian literature describes a Hierarchy where ultimate authority remains with God the Father who then delegates to others (including his son Jesus, or Prophets) the specific degree of authority he desires them to have. "No man takes this authority or it’s honor unto himself."

Individuals do not HAVE God’s authority to act in the name of God on any other basis other than delegation.

Consider the principle that Jesus did NOT possess the same level of authority as his Father did.

For example: When asked by his disciples to allow them to sit next to him in heaven, Jesus declined and defers to another will, that of his Father : " ...Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. (Matthew 20:23)

Jesus does NOT take unto himself the same authority as the Father, but admits the father is greater : “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)


THE FATHER COMMANDS AND SENDS THE SON. THE SON IS OBEDIENT TO THE FATHER, (THE SON NEVER SENDS OR COMMANDS THE FATHER)

“But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence. ( John 15:31)

The ancient christians understood that God the Father delegates to Jesus and others, whatever level of authority he desires and they understood this principle. Jesus did NOT "anoint himself" with divine power, but GOD the Father anointed him. Thus it was spoken “ How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. (Acts 10:38)

It is NOT Jesus who “raised up himself”, but God the Father raises him : “And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. Cor 6:14

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead Gal 1:1

“...how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he [the father] raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess 1:9-10

Christians spoke of the power of God “ Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,.... 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Eph 1:20-22; “ It is God the Father who gives jesus authority; who sends Jesus and whom Jesus obeys.

"...the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Cor 11:3

Not only does Jesus have less authority than his Father, but he has less knowledge than his Father as well. In speaking of the future, Jesus admits : “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mark 19:32) The father knows, but Jesus does not.

Not only does Jesus have less authority and less knowledge than God the Father, but it is Jesus, who is servant of the father. This was very clear in the earliest Christianities.

“Let all the nations know that you are the only God, “that Jesus Christ is your servant, and that “we are your people and the sheep of your pasture.” (1 Clement 59:4)

They spoke of the Father as “the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ, through whom he called us from darkness to light, ....among all of them have chosen those who love you through Jesus Christ, your beloved Servant, through whom you instructed us, sanctified us, honored us. (1 Clement 59:2-3)

The earliest Judao-christian understood and spoke of “...the all-seeing God and Master of spirits and Lord of all flesh, who chose the Lord Jesus Christ,. 1 Clement 64:1;

This choosing of Jesus by the LORD GOD was a clear and consistent theme in most of the earlier texts AND the doctrine becomes clearer the older the text as one approaches the time of Christ. For example : Enoch speaks of this time period when in vision of the pre-mortal heaven.

"...2 At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the Before-Time .... 3 even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. 4 He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall.” (1st Enoch 48:1-7)

It is God the Father who gives Jesus any important title and position and assignments.

Thus Bartholomew relates that “Jesus said to him: “Bartholomew, the Father named me Christ, that I might come down on earth and anoint with the oil of life everyone who came to me.” The Gospel of Bartholomew CH IV


Authority is an implicit principle within all sacred histories that I am aware of :

The Jews describe the “King” that “shall reign” (Jer 23:5) and upon whose “shoulder” his “government” is to rest (Isa 9:6). If Jesus is given a “dominion...and a kingdom” (Dan 7:14) and is to be a “king over all the earth”, then his government will have authority. In Jesus day, even the Jews recognized that “he taught them as one having authority” (matt 7:29 & Mk 1: 22).

It matters that Jesus really did have “power on earth to forgive sins”. (Mtt 9:6). The Jews understood that if Jesus had no authority to preach, then they had no obligation to obey Jesus. Yet, if Jesus was telling the truth when he finally claimed “by what authority I do these things” (Mtt 21:24), then the Lord God HAD given him authority. Jesus isn’t simply "demanding" as a scribe or pharisee, but rather “with authority commandeth he.” (Mk 1:27)

Jesus doesn’t simply have 12 “groupies” that hang around, and they do NOT claim to obtain their apostolic authority by “reading a book” (O.T.) or simply “believing in Jesus”, but rather, “he ordained twelve”. (Mk 3:14) Just as Jesus is given Authority by his FATHER and says “I am come in my Father’s name” (Jn 5:43), it is ONLY after receiving authority from Jesus that the twelve may act with authority.

Jesus himself does NOT assume to do these things on his own, but HIS authority is given to him by HIS Father as Jesus said “All things are delivered to me of my Father” (Lk 10:22) and the “Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” (John 3:35). Not only is Jesus SENT by the Father (Jn 7:29, 8:29; 17:18; 20:21, etc), but Jesus does not even take it upon himself to generate doctrines, but rather he admits “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.” (Jn 7:16). Jesus does not take upon himself the right to Judge men, but it is his FATHER who “hath committed all judgment unto the Son". (John 5: 22, 27; Jude 1: 15) Jesus is a servant of ANOTHER, who’s commandments he follows, thus he say “This commandment have I received of my Father” (John 10: 18; 12: 49; 14: 31).

Jesus does not become “Lord both of the dead and living.” (Rom 14:9) by inherent authority, but through authority given him by his FATHER, Jesus was “anointed” (Acts 4: 27) and “ordained” (Acts 10: 42; 17: 31) to his tasks. The early Christians were not ignorant that Jesus was given authority by another, thus they say that God “has spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed". (Heb 1:2), he was ”Called of God an high priest" (Heb 5:10)

It is not just the New Testament, but the Old Testament, the Apocrypha, the Nag Hamadi, the 40 day and DSS literature, is rife with specific references to the need for authentic authority to act for God.

Thanks for the reminding insight @rrobs

Clear
ειειφιδρω

Thank you for your input. There are a few things there I never considered. I liked your insight on Jesus sending out the 12. I'll think about a lot of what you said.

God bless.

 

[rrobs]

Before the gospel of John, "Logos" as a Greek word had already by the times of the gospels a very long provenance of being utilized in Greek religious contexts, although the actual shade of meaning varied considerably.

Specifically the Stoics (early 3rd century BC) spoke of the logos spermatikos (the generative principle of the Universe) which foreshadows related concepts in Neoplatonism (3rd century AD) from which philosophical Trinitarianism arose. Therefore it would be wrong to limit the scope of logos to just "words" and it would be wrong to limit the religious use of "logos" to Christianity. It had a wide application.

Very true, I was just trying to keep things simple. The reality is that the people and culture that used the word "logos" was quite a bit different that our own modern Western culture. We need to understand it as they understood it and, as you said, it was a very rich word, one that can not be defined in one or two sentences.

Thanks for the input.

 

[rrobs]

John 1:1,14 cannot be taken in isolation. Other scriptures show a prehuman Jesus who was more than God's thoughts and was a living being.

Yes. Jesus was indeed a living human being. The question is when did he live, in eternity or when he was born?

All born again believers were in God's mind in the beginning (Eph 1:4) but we didn't become living beings until we were born. Not sure why Jesus needs to be any different. All God needed was a man to obey Him. There is no need for that man to have lived forever or to be God. Such a thought is getting dangerously close to Gnosticism. In fact, without Gnosticism's belief in an immortal soul, the idea that Jesus (or anybody else) lived before the were born would not be possible. We need to believe the lie of the devil in Gen 3:4 over the truth of God in Gen 2:17 if we are to make Jesus alive before he lived. I can't understand why life and death get so mixed up, why so many believe someone can be alive when the are obviously not alive. The period of life begins at birth and ends at death. Before birth and after death we do not literally exist. We can be in God's mind, but we're not actually here until we're here.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see your point but I hope yo don't mind my pointing out that you seem to be adding something that just isn't there. Let's look at it again.

1Cor 1:10,

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
​

I'm not sure where I see Paul was "hoping" they would be of the same mind. He's sincerely asking us to do it. Just because we can't manage to do that doesn't mean we should make excuses. If we are not of the same mind, we should get of the same mind. How? Shedding tradition in favor of the pure words of God, the one's He purified 7 times.

Phil 2:2,

Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.
​

1Pet 3:8,

Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:
​

Phil 3:16,

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
​

I don't see any element of hope in any of these verses either. They all make an incredibly simple assertion, i.e., God does not want 40,000+ different denominations.

God bless

1Cor 1:10,

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.​

Beseech: ask (someone) urgently and fervently to do something; implore; entreat. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=beseech+means'

I agree that Paul was not "hoping" they would be of the same mind. He was asking them to be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I believe unity (as opposed to division) is a laudable goal, but I still believe that Paul was overly optimistic because this could never have been the case, given human nature AND the way the Bible was written. lending itself to so many different interpretations of the same verses.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 1:1,14 cannot be taken in isolation. Other scriptures show a prehuman Jesus who was more than God's thoughts and was a living being.

Fancy meeting you here. I decided to hang out with some Christians for a while.

I still have three posts from you from the other thread I have intentions to respond to as soon as I have time. Life has been rather difficult lately so I have cut down on posting. I hope you are well.

As you already know, I agree that Jesus was pre-existent in the spiritual world before being born into this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)