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The "What if...?" - hypothetical scenario

cladking

Well-Known Member
Yes, and in that process, they learn critical thinking and are able to weed out unsupported and erroneous beliefs.

Are you suggesting the Bible reader will necessarily be able to do this!?!

NO. It doesn't work this way. We are each a product of our place and time and ARE our beliefs. People who believe science have a different set of beliefs than those who believe religion. Obviously there is overlap but the religion believer believes in a Creator and the science believer believes ancient people were sun addled and species change gradually due to survival of the fittest. I just believe in Yoko and me.

None of the most important things in life can be induced, deduced, or found in the Bible unless you believe and I DO NOT BELIEVE. The closest we can come to answering the important questions is to "sleep on it". We can wake up with answers at least sometimes.

Science can not tell you who to marry, what thinking is, or how to live your life. I suppose religion can provide answers but only if you believe and are willing to take a priest's opinion on the relative merits of Mary and Caroline. I don't and am not. This leaves only metaphysics and philosophy.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Nice copy-pastings - but you forget to include other atoms which participates to the E&M bindings of atoms and molecules.
I didn't copy-paste anything.

I was illustrating something I have known and learned back in high school physics (early 80s), what I can recall about atoms and about magnetism and electricity in physics subject in computer science course (mid-90s).

Why would I need to paste something that are actually basic physics?

Cosmological formation is much more than what you´ve learned of the basic E&M properties and motions, which can be mechanically and instrumentally measured.

Except that physics of matters and that of EM, weak, strong & gravitation, haven't change for the LAST 13.797 billion years, from the Recombination Epoch (378,000 years after the Big Bang), the time when the universe was -
  1. cool enough for electrons to bond with the elements that exist at that time, to form electrically neutral atoms: hydrogen, deuterium (hydrogen isotope with a neutron), helium and lithium;
  2. this bonding (in #1) resulted in changing the very hot plasma universe, from opaque universe to transparent universe with reduction of plasma in space;
  3. the bonding of electron to atomic nuclei in point #1, did two thing:
    1. Photons decoupled from newly neutral and stable atoms, light or photons travelled freely in the newly transparent universe (#2); the ancient light over time length in wavelength, turning light photons into microwave, hence radio telescopes detected the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR).
    2. The photon decoupling (3.1), the cosmic background radiation left photon energy signature and heat signature that space radio telescopes could detect & measure, like those used in WMAP and Planck missions.

Here is where I actually do some copying-and-pasting:

From Wikipedia article, Cosmic microwave background:

“Cosmic microwave background - Wikipedia” said:
The CMB has a thermal black body spectrum at a temperature of 2.72548±0.00057 K. The spectral radiance dEν/dν peaks at 160.23 GHz, in the microwave range of frequencies, corresponding to a photon energy of about 6.626 ⋅ 10−4 eV.

From arXiv.org:

“D J Fixsen - The Temperature Of The Cosmic Microwave Background” said:
The FIRAS data are independently recalibrated using the WMAP data to obtain a CMB temperature of 2.7260 +/- 0.0013. Measurements of the temperature of the cosmic microwave background are reviewed. The determination from the measurements from the literature is cosmic microwave background temperature of 2.72548 +/- 0.00057 K.

Source: arXiv:0911.1955 (link), D.J. Fixsen, The Temperature Of The Cosmic Microwave Background, 2009; that was only a copy of Fixsen’s abstract, so if you wanted to read more, click the link PDF.​

That’s how you would copy-paste, plus including citation of the sources.

Before the Recombination Epoch, light could not travel freely in space, because the whole universe was in plasma state, so the universe was till very hot, so photons that decouple would be reabsorbed by the plasma.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
Oh does it? it doesn't when your parrot is riding on thermal uplift which easily overcome your assumed gravity.
That's not a rebuttal to my comment, which is that the parrot, like my dog, exhibits an intuitive sense of gravity. Your comment about thermal uplifts doesn't contradict
Doesn´t it? So an opposite natural thermal uplifting motion doesn´t contradict your one-way-downwards Newtonian attraction?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I don't claim that science is complete, nor that some older ideas won't be reworked as occurred with gravity between Newton and Einstein, but science is immune from superstition as is any program of thought that rejects insufficiently supported beliefs. Empiricism and critical thought prevent it.
If you had just a pinch of true critical sense and scientific overlooking, this statement would have looked very different.
Newton assumed an occult force in the sense of something being unseen and unexplained = superficious which easily lead to assumptions which becomes superstitious.= believing in things which isn´t there.
Exactly this was the case with Newtons "universal laws of celestial motions" which failed blatantly in galactic scales with quite another orbital motion of stars and its planetary systems.
Summary: Newton - and huge numbers of his believers - believed in a force which wasn´t real = they believed in superstitious forces. And after this discovery, scientists simply invented yet another superstitious force called "dark matter" to patch their primary mistake.
And they still go on describing this superstitious force to everything else they don´t understand in cosmos to such extent that "dark matter" and "dark energy" fills the scientific universe with 96 % - all occult and superstitious forces.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I didn't copy-paste anything.
I was illustrating something I have known and learned back in high school physics (early 80s), what I can recall about atoms and about magnetism and electricity in physics subject in computer science course (mid-90s).
Why would I need to paste something that are actually basic physics?
Copy-pasting or parrot repeating conventional science, is all the same too me.
Except that physics of matters and that of EM, weak, strong & gravitation, haven't change for the LAST 13.797 billion years, from the Recombination Epoch (378,000 years after the Big Bang), the time when the universe was -

Native said:
Cosmological formation is much more than what you´ve learned of the basic E&M properties and motions, which can be mechanically and instrumentally measured.
Except that physics of matters and that of EM, weak, strong & gravitation, haven't change for the LAST 13.797 billion years, from the Recombination Epoch (378,000 years after the Big Bang), the time when the universe was -
Do you really believe in this unscientific idea? To me it is pure megalomania to believe in such an assumed once upon a time expansion measuring in all directions having the Earth as the measurement basis, as if the Earth once was the center of the Universe. This is outright ridiculous.

About the EM force: Its basic properties logically works equally in all formative situations according to the available atoms i the plasma (cloud) stages.

The E&M has strong attractive charges and strong repulsive charges and it´s polarities works in all electromagnetic frequencies, with all kind of charges and ranges Logically you cant divide this basic force into three different departments as the present science has done because of working with different astrophysical and cosmological scientific branches.
Before the Recombination Epoch, light could not travel freely in space, because the whole universe was in plasma state, so the universe was till very hot, so photons that decouple would be reabsorbed by the plasma.
Before this speculative and unnatural nonsense, the Universe was naturally perceived as being eternal and having an eternal principle and cyclical creation process of formation, dissolution, and re-formation.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Used to love Thai restaurants and knew a few owners. My theory is that Thais are good at running restaurants and tend to be great cooks. Once you get diverticulosis you have less interest in such places and this goes double when they hire an American chef.

LOL. Sorry about the diverticulosis, but I'm surprised that Thai food is off the menu. Maybe the peanuts.

Induction is superstition.

How do you know? Did you extract that generalization from experience?

You can't define define a "thai restaurant" even by cuisine. Every "restaurant" lies on a continuum of thai- not thai. You can't eat in the same thai restaurant twice any more than you can step into the same river twice. If you order the wrong thing in the finest restaurant you are likely to be very disappointed.

Yet I have no trouble finding Thai restaurants or finding what I expect Thai food to be there and enjoying a meal. I was disappointed by a local one, however, but not because the food wasn't Thai. They gave away our reservation, and we had to go elsewhere.

I've been wrong before and might be now but I don't see anyone presenting such experimental evidence. I have shown (in aggregate) a great deal of evidence for sudden change based on consciousness. Why did Gould disbelieve Darwin?

I've read much of your posting, but don't recall any evidence for sudden change based on consciousness in your posts, nor do I understand why you think that would contradict Darwin or natural selection if it had occurred.

If there's no such thing as dogma then why does Nova now bring up both global warming and structural racism on every single program no matter the subject.

I guess that you have a different definition of dogma than I do.

No! I'm not asking why it exists, I'm asking what it is.

Gravity? It's an attractive force drawing matter together.

Are you suggesting the Bible reader will necessarily be able to do this!?!

Think critically? It's not impossible, but people who spend a lot of time reading Bibles are told to suppress reason and believe by faith.

Science can not tell you who to marry, what thinking is, or how to live your life.

Science tells you how the world works through empiricism. Wisdom, which is knowing what to pursue to find happiness, is also acquired empirically, as with the restaurant example, but on a life-sized scale. We sample the world and repeat that which brought us joy while avoiding that which made us unhappy.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
It Aint Necessarily So said:
I don't agree. You said, "ancient people were sun addled bumpkins' is axiomatic to science," and I contradicted you by writing, "science has nothing to say about that. It is a set of principles for elucidating how the world works." Did you want to address that rebuttal?
Anthropology, Egyptology, Sumerology, Linguistics, archaeology, etc etc are all sciences until someone wants to dispute their nonsense.

I personally agree that none of these bear any relationship to science but any of them probably could if practiced differently.
Exactly so.

For instants I´m convinced that if interpreting the numerous ancient cultural Stories of Creation in the light of modern cosmological terms, lots of genuine cosmological knowledge could be gathered.

And some of the ancient telling could even correct the modern cosmological ideas as for instants having a cosmological formative cycle, instead of the linear one which is connected to the unnatural Big Bang.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So an opposite natural thermal uplifting motion doesn´t contradict your one-way-downwards Newtonian attraction?

The contradiction in a rebuttal is a set of words that make the rebutted incorrect if the rebuttal is sound, not an updraft.

Newton - and huge numbers of his believers - believed in a force which wasn´t real = they believed in superstitious forces.

Gravity is real.

scientists simply invented yet another superstitious force called "dark matter" to patch their primary mistake.

Also not an example of superstition. Superstition is magical belief, the product of faith, which is belief derived from imagination. The celestial motions that dark matter was posited to account for are real and observable. Something is causing that, and calling it dark matter is a good description of what it is: substance that generates gravity but is not otherwise detectable. Superstition is going beyond that and claiming things such as that the dark matter is Loki's invisible dragon maintaining the structural integrity of rotating galaxies. Now we're into the world of make believe. Now we've left evidence behind and started creating myths.

And they still go on describing this superstitious force to everything else they don´t understand in cosmos to such extent that "dark matter" and "dark energy" fills the scientific universe with 96 % - all occult and superstitious forces.

That's what the data suggests. It seems that you and cladking are among the many who disapprove of science, usually because it contradicts some rogue belief they hold. I don't the get the impression that either of you are creationists, but it's the same phenomenon there. Because the science contradicts so much scripture, especially evolution, there is a need to denigrate it. It isn't an actual criticism of science, since such people don't have issues with the sciences that don't contradict their faith-based beliefs such as electronics or pharmacology, but meet a alternative medicine person and you'll see the same argument except railing against medical science for the same reason. Such people resent not getting the same respect that the sciences get. One cardinal feature of them all is that they don't know the science they claim to disagree with.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I've read much of your posting, but don't recall any evidence for sudden change based on consciousness in your posts, nor do I understand why you think that would contradict Darwin or natural selection if it had occurred.

There is the fact that all observed change in life is sudden.

I guess that you have a different definition of dogma than I do.

"Dogma" is is holding conclusions as the only possibility. Science doesn't really create "dogma" but believers in science do. Real scientists are aware that interpretation of experiment used to create theory is dependent on premises and paradigms. But most real scientists also are aware that science changes one funeral at a time.

Believers will tell you what's what on any subject whether it has even been subjected to experiment or not. If you do not kowtow to their beliefs you will be ignored, demeaned, and will never get funding to study or experiment.

Science has become a belief system for most adherents and it gets worse every year. Dogma gets more and more entrenched. The status quo is inviolable.

Gravity? It's an attractive force drawing matter together.

There's a real nice start. So what causes it?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
It Aint Necessarily So said:
I don't agree. You said, "ancient people were sun addled bumpkins' is axiomatic to science," and I contradicted you by writing, "science has nothing to say about that. It is a set of principles for elucidating how the world works." Did you want to address that rebuttal?

Exactly so.

For instants I´m convinced that if interpreting the numerous ancient cultural Stories of Creation in the light of modern cosmological terms, lots of genuine cosmological knowledge could be gathered.

And some of the ancient telling could even correct the modern cosmological ideas as for instants having a cosmological formative cycle, instead of the linear one which is connected to the unnatural Big Bang.

A lot of what needs to be done is just systematically applying modern science and knowledge to every aspect of ancient sites and artefacts. Currently practitioners largely wait until they stumble on something and then ponder it for decades. Real applied science seeks anomalies to study and gathers evidence for the sake of having it. Egyptologists don't need no stinkin' evidence because they already know everything.

I'm not sure that studying myth and legend can really be done scientifically. Sir Isaac Newton studied the pyramid seeking clues to the nature of gravity and failed. Seeking clues in the legends etc can work but there is no formatting for understanding it at this time. I believe in the future even this might be done scientifically but not at this time. Now one might gain insights through intuition but this will only point you in the right direction and any conclusions must be confirmed by some other means.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
So an opposite natural thermal uplifting motion doesn´t contradict your one-way-downwards Newtonian attraction?
The contradiction in a rebuttal is a set of words that make the rebutted incorrect if the rebuttal is sound, not an updraft.
What about working with the contradiction instead of making word nit pickings?
Gravity is real.
Explain by what dynamic means it should work, then.
Superstition is magical belief, the product of faith, which is belief derived from imagination.
To which Newton qualified excellently making his occult superstitious theory which failed in galactic realms - in which our Solar System is an integrated formative and orbital part.

Native said:
scientists simply invented yet another superstitious force called "dark matter" to patch their primary mistake.
The celestial motions that dark matter was posited to account for are real and observable.
Give me a break, will you? Don´t you use your logical senses when reading of such You have an unexplainable gravity which doesn´t work in galaxies and now also a "dark matter" which isn´t explained or found, hence you have nothing firm to hang your hat on at all. That is but a lot of loose cosmological claims.

Native said:
And they still go on describing this superstitious force to everything else they don´t understand in cosmos to such extent that "dark matter" and "dark energy" fills the scientific universe with 96 % - all occult and superstitious forces.
It seems that you and cladking are among the many who disapprove of science, usually because it contradicts some rogue belief they hold.
You can take this your strawman and deposit it where the sun doesn´t shine. I can´t speak for Cladking, but personally I question modern cosmological science because it´s hopelessly insufficient and unnormal and often contradicted and pathed with lots of biased ad hoc assumptions.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is the fact that all observed change in life is sudden.

My comment was, "don't recall any evidence for sudden change based on consciousness in your posts, nor do I understand why you think that would contradict Darwin or natural selection if it had occurred."

I still don't know why you think observation of the rate at which evolution proceeds is an argument against the theory or how you think consciousness factors into whatever your specific criticism is. I think you're saying that evolutionary theory is incorrect. If you are, and you care to persuade rather than just state how things appear to you, you'll need a compelling argument in support of those ideas.

Science doesn't really create "dogma" but believers in science do.

That's also moving the goal post. Until now, you and Native have been saying that science is riddled with dogma and superstition. Now you say it's some believers. Now you've made a claim I can support. Some supporters of science no doubt are dogmatic. Experienced critical thinkers are not. Their conclusions are tentative and subject to revision pending the discovery of new relevant evidence, sometimes called philosophical doubt, which unlike the much commoner psychological doubt, is only understood, not felt.

Science has become a belief system for most adherents and it gets worse every year. Dogma gets more and more entrenched. The status quo is inviolable.

This sounds like the criticism people who use the word scientism derisively make - excessive reliance on science leading to some problem, usually an unstated problem in the form of "the problem with science" followed by a criticism but no specific problem identified.

So what is it that you think is getting worse due to belief that science (empiricism really, which includes the "science" of daily life as we've been discussing with generalizing about Thai restaurants) is the only reliable way to learn about how the world works, where learning means acquiring demonstrably correct ideas, whether we're considering supernovas or restaurant? What degradation in daily life has resulted? What have we lost by abandoning other methods, such as astrology. Many problems are created by the short-sighted application of science and technology, but these are not problems with science or due to scientism.

So what causes it?

Nobody knows. We can only say how we expect gravity to affect the objects and processes that experience its force. If you want more than that, you'll need to find a way to
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What about working with the contradiction instead of making word nit pickings?

The subject was rebuttal, which is done using words. Your reference to birds and updrafts doesn't contradict science's claims about gravity, and so is not a rebuttal of those claims.

Explain by what dynamic means it should work, then.

I can't and don't need it to predict its effects. That's complete knowledge. Anything else is metaphysical speculation. Even if I postulate a god, that still wouldn't tell us anything useful about gravity. I wonder why you and Cladking keep asking this answerless question. Surely you know that there are no answers, so perhaps you are asking a rhetorical question and making a statement of some sort. If so, until either of you state explicitly where you're going with these, I can only guess what it is. Usually, its a theist trying to make his deity seem more necessary or likely, but I'm not certain that either of you are theists. Maybe you're believers in advanced historical humans or extraterrestrials, although I don't know how that would lead one to keep returning to, "Why is there gravity" or "what makes it work?"

To which Newton qualified excellently making his occult superstitious theory which failed in galactic realms - in which our Solar System is an integrated formative and orbital part.

Newtons superstitions were his theism and his belief in alchemy. And there you go on again referring to failure. Newtonian mechanics was sufficient to take man to the moon and back. That's success, and that science works for almost all applications, which occur on and around earth.

You have an unexplainable gravity which doesn´t work in galaxies and now also a "dark matter" which isn´t explained or found, hence you have nothing firm to hang your hat on at all. That is but a lot of loose cosmological claims.

Gravity works in galaxies. It's effects are present everywhere there is matter. It's why there are galaxies and relatively few stars in intergalactic space rather than stars strewn evenly through space. It's why Andromeda and the Milky Way are coming together to collide. Perhaps you meant by gravity not working in galaxies that assuming that there was only ordinary matter in galaxies lead to inconsistencies in galactic dynamics that resulted in postulating dark matter. If so, that's not about gravity not working.

It's about gravity IS working, more than it ought to be given the amount of matter known to be in a galaxy in the form of stars, rocks, dust, and gas. Galactic gravitational effects also led to the discovery of our galaxy's central supermassive black hole, Sagittarius A*. The motions of close orbiting stars required the presence of a large, then invisible, central galactic mass. A supermassive black hole was posited to exist there to account for those gravitational effect, which has since been photographed - or at least the hot gas surrounding it has been.

Dark matter need not be explained or found beyond it's effect on ordinary matter, but in this case, since we're discussing physics rather than metaphysics, very well may someday be explained.

I question modern science because it´s hopelessly insufficient and unnormal and often contradicted and pathed with lots of biased ad hoc assumptions.

This is close to what I just addressed with Cladking. Here is another claim that there is a problem. What problem? What are the undesirable consequences of these defects you see in science, and what are your remedies? I'm assuming that you have no specific complaint or solution, just a general disesteem for science and a desire to undermine its authority.

So you say that science is hopelessly insufficient? It seems to be doing a pretty good job for us getting our messages around the world real time. Speaking of which, somebody wrote the following which I think nicely states the problem with this anti-science posture:
  • "You stare into your high definition plasma screen monitor, type into your cordless keyboard then hit enter, which causes your computer to convert all that visual data into a binary signal that's processed by millions of precise circuits. This is then converted to a frequency modulated signal to reach your wireless router where it is then converted to light waves and sent along a large fiber optics cable to be processed by a super computer on a mass server. This sends that bit you typed to a satellite orbiting the earth that was put there through the greatest feats of engineering and science, all so it could go back through a similar pathway to make it all the way here to my computer monitor 15,000 miles away from you just so you could say, "Science is all a bunch of man made hogwash."
And here you have the essence of modern cosmology.

I'd call it the essence of metaphysics: we don't know. The question answered required a metaphysical answer, and reality is fresh out of those, meaning that the answer to all such questions is that we don't know and never will. It's not an impediment to the march of science.

For me, the value of cosmology is in what IS known about the history, contents, and workings of the universe, and what that says about our common reality, our place in it, and where we come from.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
What about working with the contradiction instead of making word nit pickings?
The subject was rebuttal, which is done using words. Your reference to birds and updrafts doesn't contradict science's claims about gravity, and so is not a rebuttal of those claims.
It´s only so if you right out ignore the obvious uplift facts which contradicts and works against your occult, unexplainable superstitious gravity.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Gravity works in galaxies. It's effects are present everywhere there is matter. It's why there are galaxies and relatively few stars in intergalactic space rather than stars strewn evenly through space. It's why Andromeda and the Milky Way are coming together to collide. Perhaps you meant by gravity not working in galaxies that assuming that there was only ordinary matter in galaxies lead to inconsistencies in galactic dynamics that resulted in postulating dark matter. If so, that's not about gravity not working.

It's about gravity IS working, more than it ought to be given the amount of matter known to be in a galaxy in the form of stars, rocks, dust, and gas. Galactic gravitational effects also led to the discovery of our galaxy's central supermassive black hole, Sagittarius A*. The motions of close orbiting stars required the presence of a large, then invisible, central galactic mass. A supermassive black hole was posited to exist there to account for those gravitational effect, which has since been photographed - or at least the hot gas surrounding it has been.

Dark matter need not be explained or found beyond it's effect on ordinary matter, but in this case, since we're discussing physics rather than metaphysics, very well may someday be explained.
You´re presuming everything is OK , "we just have to find the dynamic explanation of by what means gravity should work", find a "dark matter, explain a "black hole" etc etc. - hence you´re jumping fences every time you are asked serious questions and just parroting the conventional dogmas.

cladking said:
So what causes it?

You: "Nobody knows".

Native said:
And here you have the essence of modern cosmology.
I'd call it the essence of metaphysics: we don't know.
Well, how is it then that you´re acting and replying as if modern science knows it all and has NO problems with its basic assumptions, hypothesis and theories?

Its NOT all a problem of "metaphysics". Some cosmological problems are obvious, but are being scientifically skewed by unnatural and over-speculative approaches.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It´s only so if you right out ignore the obvious uplift facts which contradicts and works against your occult, unexplainable superstitious gravity.

Contradict means: "deny the truth of (a statement) by asserting the opposite." This is done with words. Updrafts do not contradict gravity, because updrafts don't speak or write. What they do is offer a force that OPPOSES gravity. It's not relevant that science can't explain why gravity exists. It's sufficient that it describe its effects mathematically. I still don't know just what your objection is or what motivates it. You won't address either, so I have come up with my own most likely explanations. You're still welcome to include your input if you want a say in the assessment.

how is it then that you´re acting and replying as if modern science knows it all and has NO problems with its basic assumptions, hypothesis and theories?

I am not replying as if science knows it all. I have stated the opposite. There is much that science hasn't explained, and much of that that it will likely never explain. What I have said, however, is that there is no other method for doing that, assuming that by explanation we mean knowledge and not superstitious guessing.

I do agree, however, with the last half of that comment. There are no problems with the assumptions underlying science, the validity of which is confirmed by its success at describing and predicting reality. Hypotheses are neither right nor wrong, and the theories of science are well supported, some beyond being falsified, which does not mean unfalsifiable in the philosophical sense of there being no way to demonstrate falsity if present, but in the sense that that possibility has been ruled out empirically. You will never falsify the heliocentric theory or the germ theory of disease.

Its NOT all a problem of "metaphysics"

No, it's not. Some is physics, such as the factors that account for the rigid motions of galaxies (dark matter) and the accelerating expansion of the universe (dark energy), both which hypotheses I believe you have also called superstition. But the questions about why the physics is the way it is, such as why gravity exists, which are metaphysical in nature, are unanswerable. This seems to be a stumbling block for a few who seem to find this fact confounding and an obstruction to further understanding of science.

As I said, I presume that they are people with rogue ideas that don't comport with science, people like the creationists, who raise the same anti-science objections in an effort to undermine the authority science has in matters of what is real. If one contradict science or if science fails to support him, as with astrologers, homeopaths, the paranormal enthusiasts, flat earthers, and the like, he is apt to take an anti-science stand asking metaphysical questions and making false claims about science and the beliefs of people that understand it. The focus turns to what science can't do as an indication of its unreliability - not much of an argument against such a wildly successful program of thought that has made life longer, healthier, more functional, easier, more comfortable, and more interesting.

You and I could not have had this discussion remotely like this without it. One of us might be dead or suffering long-haul Covid or in a wheelchair from polio without this science. Do you wear glasses? Cars and air conditioners improve the human condition. Yet we still have people denigrating this achievement. Why? As I said, I have to assume that it is because science does not support a cherished belief they hold.
 
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