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The "virgin"??? Mary
- Thread starter pandamonk
- Start date
Isaiah 7:14 has been talked to death. Matthew is a joke.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The Hebrew does indeed use "almah" and this is the basis for assigning the verse to the servant song and the infant to the son of a king of Isaiah's lifetime.pandamonk said:
A couple things to keep in mind:
A: If the son of Isaiah is the son of the King in Isaiah's lifetime, he surely does not stand out much in the history of Israel and Judaica. He is a shadow-figure almost a non-entity.
B: "Virginity" was almost a legal time at the time of Isaiah and the nativity of Jesus. What it meant was that the girl was inexperienced sexually and it could be proven by an intact hymen.
C: According to the New Testament and the Qur'an Mary was impregnated by the will of God, not by instrumentation or artifical insemination. In otherwords, she was impregnated not by a sexual act, and the hymen was still untouched, and she was still virgin under the laws of the time until the baby was born.
Regards,
Scott
Well, here's a mamal that managed the same feat - three times.............
http://www.abc.net.au/cgi-bin/common/printfriendly.pl?/news/scitech/2002/09/item20020921093917_1.htm
A shark held with no male counterpart at Detroit's Belle Isle Aquarium for the past six years has produced three babies in what zoo officials are calling "virgin births".
Doug Sweet, curator of fishes at the aquarium, says the first two offspring hatched in July and the third was born earlier this week.
Mr Sweet says the female trio and their two-feet-long mother, a white spotted bamboo shark common to waters in the South Pacific, are all doing well.
He says a fourth offspring is expected in another couple of weeks.
"With fish, amphibians and reptiles it does happen sometimes, it is kind of rare but it can happen," Mr Sweet said of the unusual hatchings.
He says they are thought to be the result of a process called parthenogenesis, which is the ability of unfertilised eggs to develop into embryos without sperm.
"The other option here is that perhaps there's a chance that the female might be a self-fertilising hermaphrodite," Mr Sweet said.
"That is, she might have testicular tissue inside her as well as ovarian tissue, and it's possible she could be fertilising her own eggs. Either way you look at it, it's pretty weird."
Mr Sweet says the only other adult bamboo shark in the 2,600 litre tank where the mother is held is also a female.
"There's no male around and there hasn't been any male around for as long as we've had the sharks, and we've had them for over six years," he said.
Though the births in Detroit are thought to be extremely rare, Mr Sweet says a bonnethead shark, also held without any male companion, reproduced in late 2001 at a zoo in Omaha, Nebraska.
He says that unlike the biblical account of Jesus' birth and the Virgin Mary, "in nature, during parthenogenesis, it typically is always a female that is produced".
http://www.abc.net.au/cgi-bin/common/printfriendly.pl?/news/scitech/2002/09/item20020921093917_1.htm
A shark held with no male counterpart at Detroit's Belle Isle Aquarium for the past six years has produced three babies in what zoo officials are calling "virgin births".
Doug Sweet, curator of fishes at the aquarium, says the first two offspring hatched in July and the third was born earlier this week.
Mr Sweet says the female trio and their two-feet-long mother, a white spotted bamboo shark common to waters in the South Pacific, are all doing well.
He says a fourth offspring is expected in another couple of weeks.
"With fish, amphibians and reptiles it does happen sometimes, it is kind of rare but it can happen," Mr Sweet said of the unusual hatchings.
He says they are thought to be the result of a process called parthenogenesis, which is the ability of unfertilised eggs to develop into embryos without sperm.
"The other option here is that perhaps there's a chance that the female might be a self-fertilising hermaphrodite," Mr Sweet said.
"That is, she might have testicular tissue inside her as well as ovarian tissue, and it's possible she could be fertilising her own eggs. Either way you look at it, it's pretty weird."
Mr Sweet says the only other adult bamboo shark in the 2,600 litre tank where the mother is held is also a female.
"There's no male around and there hasn't been any male around for as long as we've had the sharks, and we've had them for over six years," he said.
Though the births in Detroit are thought to be extremely rare, Mr Sweet says a bonnethead shark, also held without any male companion, reproduced in late 2001 at a zoo in Omaha, Nebraska.
He says that unlike the biblical account of Jesus' birth and the Virgin Mary, "in nature, during parthenogenesis, it typically is always a female that is produced".
Fallen Goddess
Member
Sir Michel,
I would like to bath in those waters in Detroit and see what happens.
I would like to bath in those waters in Detroit and see what happens.
And zeus came down as a bull and impregnated a woman.
My belief is simply that joseph got mary pregnant, noone would take them in because they were not wed, she gave birth in a barn, the family moved around to get away from rumours that might get them killed.
Because of this lifestyle they became a liberal jewish family, you are not inclined to make judgements when you've already "sinned", being not as quick to judge they thought about things more, did not assume things should be as they always were, because they'd probably be dead if that was true.
But if the virgin birth is really that important to you, go ahead and believe in it, just show the same respect when i talk about my beliefs.
My belief is simply that joseph got mary pregnant, noone would take them in because they were not wed, she gave birth in a barn, the family moved around to get away from rumours that might get them killed.
Because of this lifestyle they became a liberal jewish family, you are not inclined to make judgements when you've already "sinned", being not as quick to judge they thought about things more, did not assume things should be as they always were, because they'd probably be dead if that was true.
But if the virgin birth is really that important to you, go ahead and believe in it, just show the same respect when i talk about my beliefs.
CaptainXeroid
Following Christ
If people didn't keep asking the same question about Jesus' conception and birth, someone wouldn't have to keep reminding people of this important verse.Isaiah 7:14 said:
This sums up my belief on the subject.Popeyesays said:
You speak of respect while you make disparaging remarks about the belief of many people.:tsk: Frankly, if you don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, your disbelief in the Immaculate Conception is completely irrelevant.Pardus said:
Anastasios
Member
A quotation from Ahmedi muslim beliefs:
Is a Literal Son of God Possible?
Evidently therefore, literal sonship of God is impossible because a literal son must have half the character of his father and half the character of his mother. So another problem surfaces, the son would be half man and half god. But those who believe in the literal sonship, claim and emphasise that Christ was a perfect man and a perfect god.
If the chromosomes were half the required number then we are not left with any problem, no child would be born anyway. Suppose it did happen, that child would only be half a man. Not to mention the missing twenty-three full chromosomes, even a single defective gene within one chromosome can play havoc with a child born with such a congenital defect. He could be blind, limbless, deaf and dumb. The dangers attendant to such a mishap are unlimited. One should be realistic; it is impossible to conceive God as possessing any chromosomes, human or otherwise.
Therefore, with the personal physical contribution of God having been ruled out, if a son were born to Mary with only the human character bearing genes possessed by her ovum, whatever the outcome, he would certainly not be the Son of God. At best you can describe that freak of nature as half a man and no more. If the reproductive organs of Mary were like any other female and still the ovum were to fertilize somehow by itself, the maximum one can expect is the creation of something with only half the human characters. It is abominable to call that something the Son of God.
So how was Christ born? We understand that research on the subject of single mother birth without the participation of a male is being carried out in many advanced countries of the world. But so far human knowledge is only at a stage where scientific research has not yet advanced to such a level where positive irrefutable evidence of virgin births in human beings can be produced. However, all sorts of possibilities remain open.
At lower orders of life two phenomena are scientifically well established: Parthenogenesis and Hermaphroditism. As such, the miraculous birth of Jesus, to Mary, can be understood to belong to some similar natural but very rare phenomenon, the peripheries of which are not yet fully fathomed by man.
Here follow brief descriptions of the phenomena of Parthenogenesis and Hermaphroditism. Readers interested in a more scientific treatment of the subject matter, based upon current understanding, may refer to Appendix II.
Parthenogenesis
This is the asexual development of a female ovum into an individual, without the aid of a male agent. It is observed among many lower forms of life such as aphids and also fish. There is also evidence that parthenogenesis can be a successful strategy among lizards living under low and unpredictable rainfall conditions. In laboratory conditions, mice and rabbit embryos have been developed parthenogenetically to a stage equivalent to halfway through pregnancy, but have then been aborted. In recent study, human embryos could be activated occasionally by parthenogenesis using calcium ionophore as a catalyst. Such research raises the prospect that some early human pregnancy losses may have involved the parthenogenetic activation of the embryo.
Hermaphroditism
This term applies when organs of both sexes are present within a single female and the chromosomes show both male and female characters aligned side by side. Laboratory tests have revealed cases such as that of a hermaphrodite rabbit which, at one stage, served several females and sired more than 250 young of both sexes, while at another stage, became pregnant in isolation and gave birth to seven healthy young of both sexes. When autopsied, it showed two functional ovaries and two infertile testes while in a pregnant condition. Recent studies suggest that such a phenomenon is possible, rarely, among humans also.
What are Miracles?
With the possibility of virgin birth being wide open, it does not remain to be all that impossible and unnatural. Where is the need to search for a supernatural explanation of Jesus birth, or even go beyond that to the farthest extreme of believing in the birth of a literal Son of God through a human birth? When all this is observed as a fact of nature, why is it hard to believe that the birth of Jesus Christ was a hidden natural phenomenon, brought about by a special design of God? Something happened in Mary which gave that child a miraculous birth, without a man having touched her. It is the Ahmadiyya Muslim belief that this is exactly what happened. Our case is unshakeable because no scientist can dismiss it as nonsensical or opposed to the known laws of nature. (From the book of Christianity: A Journey from Facts to Fiction)
Is a Literal Son of God Possible?
Evidently therefore, literal sonship of God is impossible because a literal son must have half the character of his father and half the character of his mother. So another problem surfaces, the son would be half man and half god. But those who believe in the literal sonship, claim and emphasise that Christ was a perfect man and a perfect god.
If the chromosomes were half the required number then we are not left with any problem, no child would be born anyway. Suppose it did happen, that child would only be half a man. Not to mention the missing twenty-three full chromosomes, even a single defective gene within one chromosome can play havoc with a child born with such a congenital defect. He could be blind, limbless, deaf and dumb. The dangers attendant to such a mishap are unlimited. One should be realistic; it is impossible to conceive God as possessing any chromosomes, human or otherwise.
Therefore, with the personal physical contribution of God having been ruled out, if a son were born to Mary with only the human character bearing genes possessed by her ovum, whatever the outcome, he would certainly not be the Son of God. At best you can describe that freak of nature as half a man and no more. If the reproductive organs of Mary were like any other female and still the ovum were to fertilize somehow by itself, the maximum one can expect is the creation of something with only half the human characters. It is abominable to call that something the Son of God.
So how was Christ born? We understand that research on the subject of single mother birth without the participation of a male is being carried out in many advanced countries of the world. But so far human knowledge is only at a stage where scientific research has not yet advanced to such a level where positive irrefutable evidence of virgin births in human beings can be produced. However, all sorts of possibilities remain open.
At lower orders of life two phenomena are scientifically well established: Parthenogenesis and Hermaphroditism. As such, the miraculous birth of Jesus, to Mary, can be understood to belong to some similar natural but very rare phenomenon, the peripheries of which are not yet fully fathomed by man.
Here follow brief descriptions of the phenomena of Parthenogenesis and Hermaphroditism. Readers interested in a more scientific treatment of the subject matter, based upon current understanding, may refer to Appendix II.
Parthenogenesis
This is the asexual development of a female ovum into an individual, without the aid of a male agent. It is observed among many lower forms of life such as aphids and also fish. There is also evidence that parthenogenesis can be a successful strategy among lizards living under low and unpredictable rainfall conditions. In laboratory conditions, mice and rabbit embryos have been developed parthenogenetically to a stage equivalent to halfway through pregnancy, but have then been aborted. In recent study, human embryos could be activated occasionally by parthenogenesis using calcium ionophore as a catalyst. Such research raises the prospect that some early human pregnancy losses may have involved the parthenogenetic activation of the embryo.
Hermaphroditism
This term applies when organs of both sexes are present within a single female and the chromosomes show both male and female characters aligned side by side. Laboratory tests have revealed cases such as that of a hermaphrodite rabbit which, at one stage, served several females and sired more than 250 young of both sexes, while at another stage, became pregnant in isolation and gave birth to seven healthy young of both sexes. When autopsied, it showed two functional ovaries and two infertile testes while in a pregnant condition. Recent studies suggest that such a phenomenon is possible, rarely, among humans also.
What are Miracles?
With the possibility of virgin birth being wide open, it does not remain to be all that impossible and unnatural. Where is the need to search for a supernatural explanation of Jesus birth, or even go beyond that to the farthest extreme of believing in the birth of a literal Son of God through a human birth? When all this is observed as a fact of nature, why is it hard to believe that the birth of Jesus Christ was a hidden natural phenomenon, brought about by a special design of God? Something happened in Mary which gave that child a miraculous birth, without a man having touched her. It is the Ahmadiyya Muslim belief that this is exactly what happened. Our case is unshakeable because no scientist can dismiss it as nonsensical or opposed to the known laws of nature. (From the book of Christianity: A Journey from Facts to Fiction)
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Parthenogenesis happens: http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0837738.html
But the birth of Jesus has nothing to do with a devine science project. Those with agenda to debunk Christianity will always have "issues" with this as well as other scriptures. They might hide behind a pseudo intellectual facade, but it is my humble opinion that they have an agenda: one to destroy and not to understand.
But the birth of Jesus has nothing to do with a devine science project. Those with agenda to debunk Christianity will always have "issues" with this as well as other scriptures. They might hide behind a pseudo intellectual facade, but it is my humble opinion that they have an agenda: one to destroy and not to understand.
Anastasios
Member
I see. when a belief is question, people always will try to destroy their so-called "enemies", what they are trying to do is to prove that what bible or kuran says is true about mary. You can be sure, many of them don't behave to debunk Christianity, but to reveal the facts. If the facts will debunk the Christianity, there is nothing to do against it. And that is what disturbs you. And it is not an agenda, but a way of searching truth beyond myth. In any case it is much more better to think about this suggestion than to believe something impossible. This idea is produced very long time ago actually, and while there is a posibble explanation which can be seen in nature, as was mentioned before, why should I believe this fiction.NetDoc said:
The same book says:
"First of all, let me remind you that the mother and father participate equally in producing a child. The cells of human beings contain 46 chromosomes, which carry the genes or character bearing threads of life. The ovum of a human mother possesses only 23 of the 46 chromosomes, which is half the number found in each man and woman. When the mothers ovum is ready and available for insemination, the other half of the chromosomes which it lacks, is provided by the male sperm, which then enters and fertilizes it. This is the design of God, otherwise, the number of chromosomes would begin to double with every generation. As a result the second generation would have 92 chromosomes; humans would soon be transformed into giants and the entire process of growth would run amok. God has so beautifully planned and designed the phenomenon of the survival of species that at productive levels of regenerative cells, chromosomes are halved in number. The mothers ovum contains 23 chromosomes and so does the fathers sperm. As such, one can reasonably expect half the characters bearing genes of the child to be provided by the female and half by the male partner. This is the meaning of a literal son. There is no other definition of being a literal son which can be ascribed to any human birth. There are variations in the methodology of course, but there are no exceptions to the rules and principles just explained.
Focusing our attention on the birth of Jesus, let us build a scenario about what might have happened in his case. The first possibility, which can be scientifically considered, is that Marys unfertilized ovum provided the 23 chromosomes as the mothers share in the forming of the embryo. That being so, the question would arise as to how the ovum was fertilized and where did the remaining 23 essential chromosomes come from? It is impossible to suggest that Jesus cells had only 23 chromosomes. No human child can be born alive with even 45 chromosomes. Even if a human being was deprived of a single chromosome out of the 46 necessary for the making of all human beings, the result would be something chaotic, if there was anything at all. Scientifically, Mary could not provide the 46 chromosomes alone, 23 had to come from somewhere else.
If God is the father then that presents several options. One; God also has the same chromosomes that humans have, and these must have been transferred somehow to the uterus of Mary. That is unbelievable and unacceptable; if God has the chromosomes of human beings it means he is no longer God. So as a consequence of belief in Jesus as the literal Son of God, even the divinity of the Father is jeopardised.
The second possibility is that God created the extra chromosomes as a supernatural phenomenon of creation. In other words, they did not actually belong to the person of God, but were created miraculously. This would automatically lead us to reject Jesus relationship to God as one of child and father, and would result in the all embracing relationship of the Universe to God, that is, the relationship of every created being to its Creator."
So, What is your explanation to enlighten us about this matter?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I simply do not accept the tales of a virgin birth. That being said, I fail to understand how that impacts on the ministry that Christ later would give. IF anything, becoming the son to an unwed mother simply underscores his humble roots. Humility comes to mind at being born a ba*tard.
Regardless of what the scholars and books say, I simply do no "get" why it is a big deal...
Christ's words do not crumble simply because he was not the product of a supernatural birth. His words stand on their own. Can someone explain to me WHY it is important to accept the concept?
Regardless of what the scholars and books say, I simply do no "get" why it is a big deal...
Christ's words do not crumble simply because he was not the product of a supernatural birth. His words stand on their own. Can someone explain to me WHY it is important to accept the concept?
Because simply "Mary" wasn't a married woman when she got pregnant with Jesus Christ and she was a vergin and she recieved the word of God through an angel. So, he was a fully man according to Islam. God created him the same as he did with Adam. Allah say "Be" then it been.YmirGF said: