The UK surveillance state. Why?

[HonestJoe]

For a free country, the UK surveillance system has reached epidemic proportions to the point where one wonders what's really going on with all this?

I question the idea that the scale is unusual, on either an international or historic scale. The legislation referred to in the article was largely applying existing principles to modern technology. The scale and scope of digital data does give governments access to much more but only because the technology creates much more in the first place.

And last, how are UK citizens dealing with it all?

Well the article is over a year old and I'm not aware of any concerns or complaints once the media frenzy (much of it misinformed or deliberately misleading) died down. I suspect most UK citizens have forgotten all about it because it never really bothered us in the first place.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

We don't. This is a massive difference between the U.K. and the U.S.

Honestly I think this has a lot to do with the 'every man is his own island' 'lone ranger' development our culture has gone through. The US sees it as more personal freedom, whereas UK or Japan might see it as antisocial or even a form of personal greed.

 

[Valjean]

My thoughts go back to Snowden and the NSA.

Bingo!
When the extent of the police state is pointed out to us, there is a massive groundswell of objection. Curiously, the most rabid condemnation comes from those demographics both most "patriotic" and most critical of "government," in general.
Seems kind of schizophrenic, if you ask me.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -Benjamin Franklin

The full quote is

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

And in context is pretty different from how it's used today. Benjamin was chastising the governor of Pennsylvania for denying a tax on the Penn family to fund defense budgets. In this case essential liberty being protection by a well funded military and safety being Penn's family who appointed him not getting pissed.

Franklin went on to try and change Pennsylvanian government to a royal system to forcibly remove Penn, even though the revolution was drawing near and royal systems were unpopular with the people.

Just goes to show that what security is, when it is temporary, and how it should be valued aganst equally vague freedoms is very debatable.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I'm not sure if I could live in something that that. The sheer amount of government surveillance. It comes across very much like a dystopian environment that people have to live in. Very George Orwellian and very errie to me that somebody is continually monitoring you 24/7.

Shhh! God is monitoring your thoughts and taking notes in anticipation of your upcoming trial on Judgment Day.

 

[Valjean]

it's kind of Maslovian. Security usually trumps freedom.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's true the UK is more densely covered with CCTV and traffic surveillance than anywhere else. And Gov forces now have powers to observe all financial transactions. They can also observe all IT traffic, phone calls, texts......... the lot.


It's great if you want more protection and security in your life. It's dreadful if you're a terrorist, criminal or tax dodger of any kind.


We tend to lock our shops and everything else when they close. How about where you live?


Yes, and always has been, but it's getting harder to hide mess about now.


Because we want to deter and defend from crime and loss, and catch the villains when they try.


........ fitting their own CCTV into cars, cycle helmets, properties etc. Mobile videoing any criminals seen and putting the vids up on U-Tube to catch and report. WE're better at this stuff than the friggin' Gov crowd!

I tend to think big brother is okay as long as we get to play with it too. They watch us, we watch them. ;0)

 

[oldbadger]

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -Benjamin Franklin

Ha ha!
You got suckered by a butchered misquote!

1. Since you bsashed out that innaccurate one-liner I will remember, and quote it back to you every time you support more controls of any kind in your country.

2. We are free, here, because we can do more, go further, be out later, knowing that bad actions will inevitably be recorded somehow, somewhere, by either residents, retailers, commerce, industry, councils, police or government.

3. .......and Benjamin Franklin would no doubt support all of our Safety and Security precautions.

4. .....you didn't know the real sentence, did you?

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_misquotations
Widely circulating on Facebook by The Tea Party: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Actual words: "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." It comes from the Historical Review of ...

How The World Butchered Benjamin Franklin's Quote On Liberty Vs ...

https://techcrunch.com/.../how-the-world-butchered-benjamin-franklins-quote-on-liberty-vs-security/
14 Feb 2014 ... You might have heard that American founding father Benjamin Franklin said something like "Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither." The quote has been ... Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

 

[oldbadger]

I tend to think big brother is okay as long as we get to play with it too. They watch us, we watch them. ;0)

We can! We do!
The number of powerful, influential folks who have been exposed by techno-seek is amazing.

Every single kid in our country is equipped with instant photo, video, messaging technology and can 'nail' any bad official doing any bad tghing in seconds, and 'viral' it in minutes.

The days when hypocrites could rant about crime whilst sunk deep in it are dwindling and they don't like it.

Our government officials are coming unstuck as well..... if they do bad things.

 

[Father Heathen]

Ha ha!
You got suckered by a butchered misquote!

1. Since you bsashed out that innaccurate one-liner I will remember, and quote it back to you every time you support more controls of any kind in your country.

2. We are free, here, because we can do more, go further, be out later, knowing that bad actions will inevitably be recorded somehow, somewhere, by either residents, retailers, commerce, industry, councils, police or government.

3. .......and Benjamin Franklin would no doubt support all of our Safety and Security precautions.

4. .....you didn't know the real sentence, did you?

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_misquotations
Widely circulating on Facebook by The Tea Party: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Actual words: "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." It comes from the Historical Review of ...

How The World Butchered Benjamin Franklin's Quote On Liberty Vs ...

https://techcrunch.com/.../how-the-world-butchered-benjamin-franklins-quote-on-liberty-vs-security/
14 Feb 2014 ... You might have heard that American founding father Benjamin Franklin said something like "Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither." The quote has been ... Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

I paraphrased from memory, but the point remains the same, so you and @ADigitalArtist made much ado about nothing. And if I were to ever support increased restrictions on any freedoms, please do quote it back at me.

 

[Notanumber]

Isis did not exist when Ben Franklin uttered those words

But Islam did exist - History is Fascinating: What Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin Discovered About Islam That Changed the Course of American History

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I paraphrased from memory, but the point remains the same, so you and @ADigitalArtist made much ado about nothing. And if I were to ever support increased restrictions on any freedoms, please do quote it back at me.

I didn't mean putting the quote in a corrective way. Just expanding on the history of the quote which gives it a pretty different meaning than today's colloquial use. In that what constitutes both temporary safety and essential liberties are debatable.

 

[Altfish]

I stand to be corrected but are most of these cameras erected by shop keepers, business owners, mall owners, etc.?
They are not state controlled but installed to deter thieves. Even home owners are now installing them and can watch remotely from work via their mobile as the cat triggers it.

Yes, there are cctv at government buildings and yes the police will ask for private footage if a crime has been committed, but most are NOT state controlled.

I'd rather have a lot of surveillance cameras than people armed with guns.

 

[HonestJoe]

I paraphrased from memory, but the point remains the same, so you and @ADigitalArtist made much ado about nothing. And if I were to ever support increased restrictions on any freedoms, please do quote it back at me.

The problem with your version of the quote is that it implies that there should be literally zero sacrifice of any freedom in return for improved security. That would include countless long established security measures that limit freedoms such as border controls, police power of arrest and your right to stop people from wondering through your garden.

 

[oldbadger]

I paraphrased from memory, but the point remains the same,

No it doesn't....... that misquote totally changed the point!

so you and @ADigitalArtist made much ado about nothing.

I'm making no 'Ado' about our techno-security and safety apps here at all.

And if I were to ever support increased restrictions on any freedoms, please do quote it back at me.

Oh no....... I'll be watching for any of your support for increased safety and security apps in your land, that's my point. I feel a prophesy coming on.............. ah yes......

 

[oldbadger]

Isis did not exist when Ben Franklin uttered those words

It's OK, that was never what Ben Franklin said, it is a misquote and thus it's Fake News.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

For a free country, the UK surveillance system has reached epidemic proportions to the point where one wonders what's really going on with all this? From all appearances it's network is massive and intrusive.

Is there a distrust of its citizenry?

Is there something going on that nobody is talking about?

Why has it gone to an epic scale that it has as it pertains to government surveillance inside a supposedly free country?

And last, how are UK citizens dealing with it all?

The UK just legalized everything that Snowden warned us about

If you get elected using the political strategy of scaring people, this is where you end up.

 

[Augustus]

Why has it gone to an epic scale that it has as it pertains to government surveillance inside a supposedly free country?

And last, how are UK citizens dealing with it all?

Seems like most of it relates to easing government access to data which already exists in the hand of private entities. Governments are already hoovering up this info surreptitiously anyway.

If you own a computer and smartphone in any country, unless you take specific steps to avoid it, you are already under far greater surveillance than Winston Smith in 1984. Given the amount of data they have on most people, differences between national laws are mostly about about the cherry on top rather than the cake itself.

When you use many products and services online without paying for them, you are the product not the customer.

 

[ChristineM]

But Islam did exist - History is Fascinating: What Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin Discovered About Islam That Changed the Course of American History

Im sure i was specific but you want to spread your hatred of a religion by widening the argument, so...

So did Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, etc. Your point is what?. That you want to brand all islam with the same sick mark as the 0.0006% terrorists. Why the hatred? What has "Islam" (not terrorism but Islam) done to offend you so deeply?

 

[ChristineM]

It's OK, that was never what Ben Franklin said, it is a misquote and thus it's Fake News.

Cheers