The Trinity

[michel]

I know you're right.


No, you're fine. I guess I just don't see gross distortions of my beliefs by people who really don't know what they're talking about as being minor semantic arguments, and I really don't actually like being told I'm going to hell. I definitely do agree with you, though, that Christians of all denominations often lose sight of the most important thing Jesus ever said, "Love one another. By this shall men know that ye are my disciples."

This one doesn't ! - and that is thanks to some Christians on this forum; you being one of them!


and

As I am writing this post, my Church's semi-annual General Conference is being held in downtown Salt Lake City. As Latter-day Saints walk from their cars along the sidewalks leading to the Conference Center, they are forced to listen to "real Christians," who converge upon the city twice a year from all parts of the United States, carrying placards denouncing our beliefs as non-Christian, and shouting that we're all going to burn in Hell. So yes, it's a rather common charge.

That is awful Kathryn; no one should have to suffer that sort of bias. I am sorry.

"Infighting" by different 'brands' of Christianity is beyond me......it is too sad for words.:bonk:

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Hi Kathryn

Hate always makes me so sad.
Love is always the healer.

Love to you and yours

Terry_____________________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

 

[Merlin]

JW believe that Jehovah God is the one true God , psalm 83;18 and Jesus christ is Gods only begotten first born son, and the holy spirit is Gods active Force, so we do not believe in the trinity ,we believe in what the bible teaches.

the holy spirit is the active force of God. It is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will

Jehovah is God and is Allah and YHWH

So we all worship the same God.

 

[Scott1]

Jehovah is God and is Allah and YHWH

So we all worship the same God.

Amen! :bounce

 

[Merlin]

I know you're right.


No, you're fine. I guess I just don't see gross distortions of my beliefs by people who really don't know what they're talking about as being minor semantic arguments, and I really don't actually like being told I'm going to hell. I definitely do agree with you, though, that Christians of all denominations often lose sight of the most important thing Jesus ever said, "Love one another. By this shall men know that ye are my disciples."

Relax, it matters not what others say of your beliefs. Be happy in them if they satisfy you. Equally, let others enjoy their beliefs.

 

[saidur611]

Hello All viewers of this debate. I am quoting something from our holy Koran, please go through and i hope Almighty will help u to understand about HIM. may Allah bless all of us.

‘Shirk’, the word used for idolatry in Arabic means “partnership/association”.

In the Qur’an, to practise idolatry is to associate any other being, any other person, or concept with Allah, considering them to be equal to Allah, and to act upon this unsound belief.

In translations of the Qur’an, idolatry is explained as “associating a partner with Allah”. It is expressed thus: “having another god besides Allah”, or “worshipping another god besides Allah”.

In its broadest sense, idolatry is to adhere to principles and values, or pursue a life style other than is consistent with the teachings and moral values of the Qur’an. Someone adopting such principles simply sets up the person laying down these principles as a partner to Allah. This person may be anyone; his father, grandfather, an ancestor he may so exalt the society he is a member of, the founders of an ideology, a philosophy or its followers. In this broad sense of idolatry, someone adhering to a different way of living other than the Qur’an, simply practises idolatry. He may call himself an atheist, Christian, or Jew. He may even appear to be a Muslim, performing his regular prayers, fasting and obeying the laws of Islam. Nevertheless, anyone harboring a thought or judgment opposing the Qur’an is a mere idolater; by such a stance he simply manifests his acceptance of the existence of a ruler other than Allah.

Idolatry does not essentially require an absolute denial of the existence of Allah. Rather, the majority of the idolaters avoid explicitly accepting such an attribute or “title”. Never scrupulous in conduct, they deceive themselves throughout their lives. On the Day of Judgment, they still reject being involved in idolatry. The stance they adopt is explained in the following verse:

One day shall We gather them all together: We shall say to those who ascribed partners (to Us):

“Where are the partners whom you (invented and) talked about?” There will then be (left) no subterfuge for them but to say: “By Allah, our Lord, we were not those who associated other gods with Allah.” Behold! How they lie against their own souls! But the (lie) which they invented will leave them in the lurch. (Al-Ana‘am, 22-24)

An idolater does not necessarily have to make “declarations”. You will certainly never hear a statement like this: “I hereby take this divine being as a god besides Allah and I swear an oath of loyalty to him.” Idolatry resides primarily, in the heart and is then disclosed through word and deed. From the standpoint of the Qur’an, having a preference for a being other than Allah underlies it. Giving preference to the will of some person over the Will of Allah, for instance, fear of other people rather than fear of Allah, or an attachment to some person rather than to Him are examples of idolatry described in the Qur’an.

From the foregoing, it is clear that idolatry is the diversion of the feeling of “love” from Allah to other beings. The strong attachment formed to idols is explained in the following verse:

Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah): They love them as they should love Allah. But those of the Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to Allah belongs all power, and Allah will sternly enforce the penalty. (Surah Al-Baqara, 2:165)

This verse makes it clear that “love” given to the wrong people lays the basis for “worshipping others than Allah” as well as idolatry. Unlike believers, unbelievers can never maintain an intimate relation with their Creator. They love either themselves or others, or both; they share out their love among their fathers, sons, brothers, wives, husbands, lovers, the people they are surrounded by, and so on. As well as for people, unbelievers feel attachment for non-living things, or rather concepts like money, possessions, houses, cars, status, prestige, etc.

The superior and gorgeous properties of all living things and non-living things alike, are mere reflections of the infinite attributes of Allah. The unique possessor of these features is Allah and therefore the only One worthy of loyalty, devotion and love. Feeling an attachment then for anything other than Allah is mere association of partners with Allah.

In another verse, in the words of Prophet Abraham, it is asserted that unbelievers leave Allah and strengthen the bond with their idols:

And he said: “You have taken (for worship) idols besides Allah, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgment you shall disown and curse each other: and your abode will be the Fire, and you shall have none to help you.”(Al-Ankaboot, 25)

Passion for women is the most striking example of ascribing partners to Allah in terms of love. The woman in question can be anyone—a spouse, a girl friend, or even a woman to whom one is platonically attracted. In consequence, if the love felt for a woman makes a man drift apart from Allah, makes him see a woman as equal to or at a higher level than Allah, then this is explicitly “ascribing partners to Allah.” Such a mentality, assumed to be innocent behaviour in society, has serious consequences, however, in the presence of Allah:

(The Pagans), leaving Him, call but upon female deities: they call but upon Satan the persistent rebel! (An-Nisa, 117)

This point of view also holds true for women. This type of love, unacceptable in the presence of Allah, is however encouraged in modern societies under the “innocent” rubrics of “love”, “romanticism” or “dating.” The indoctrination of romanticism- especially targeting young people—has devastating effects upon new generations. This is surely a great hindrance to the healthy development of the youthful mind and consciousness. As a result of this indoctrination, generations devoid of understanding, come into being. In such circumstances, the members of society live in a total unawareness of the purpose of their existence on Earth, and the exigencies of their religion and faith. Such people simply cling to an ignorant way of living and lead their lives without knowing what love of Allah or fear of Allah really means.

 

[saidur611]

Another reason for the individual to drift into shirk is fear. Just like love, fear should be felt only for Allah. One who feels or shows fear for created beings simply attributes individual might to them. This is idolatry, pure and simple.
Allah has said:

“Take not (for worship) two gods: for He is just One Allah: then fear Me (and Me alone).” To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and on earth, and to Him is duty due always: then will you fear other than Allah? (An-Nahl, 51-52)

Unbelievers go in great fear of other people. This is narrated in the Qur’an:

...When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! A section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah. They said: “Our Lord! Why have you ordered us to fight? Could you not grant us a brief respite?”...(An-Nisa, 77)

Apart from the feelings of love and fear, there are other attitudes leading man to idolatry.

​

The basis of idolatry is the preference for a person, or a thing over Allah, for instance, to prefer somebody’s approval to Allah’s, to fear somebody as one fears Allah or to love him as one loves Allah…Or to do for an idol what he doesn’t do for Allah, or to make a sacrifice which he does not do for Allah’s approval.

Given the foregoing arguments, it would be a shallow interpretation indeed to define idolatry as the worship of statues. This is surely an argument used by unbelievers to justify their stance Furthermore from the Qur’an which will prevail until the Day of Judgement we understand that, in every age, pagans lived together side by side with believers. The related verses follow:

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers you will find the Jews and Pagans... (Al-Maeda, 82)

Turn back in repentance to Allah, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and do not be among those who associate other gods with Allah Turn to Him, be careful of your duty to Him, be steadfast in prayer and do not be of the polytheists, who split up their religion, and become (mere) sects, each party rejoicing in its own beliefs! (Ar-Rum, 31-32)

As the verses suggest, one of the most significant characteristics of polytheistic societies is their approach to true religion; they reject some commandments of the religion revealed by Allah and hence form divisions within the religion. The members of these divisions assume themselves to be on the right path and fight with one another.

In the verses below it is stated that no deed of the pagans is accepted by Allah; even their prayers and worship:

But it has already been revealed to you, as it was to those who went before you, “If you were to associate other gods with Allah, truly fruitless would your work in life be,” and you would surely be in the ranks of those who lose all spiritual good”. (Az-Zumar, 65)

A believer may commit various sins. However, behind these sins, there is no question of a revolt or a similar intention or act against Allah. What makes idolatry different from other sins is that, in contrast to the other sins, idolatry assigns another god besides Allah and invents a lie against Him. Thus idolatry is the greatest sin. It is in a way a manifestation of disrespect to Allah.
Accordingly, Allah mentions in the Qur’an that He will forgive any sin except idolatry:

Allah does not forgive those who set up partners with Him; but He forgives whom He pleases; for anything else; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed. (An-Nisa, 48)

Allah does not forgive the sin of associating other gods with Him; but He forgives whom He pleases for sins other than this: one who associates other gods with Allah, has strayed far, far away (from the right). (An-Nisa, 116)

Anything, living or non-living, which the pagans assign as partners to Allah by no means possess any divine attributes.

Allah states in the Qur’an that these partners can neither harm them nor profit them (Jonah, 18), cannot create anything (Jonah, 34, Al-Araf, 191), they cannot help anyone, not even themselves (Al-Araf, 192), and cannot lead to the righteous way (Jonah, 35). Despite their all being inherently weak, these “partners with Allah” are set up by pagans. The main reason for such an attitude is the fact that Allah bestows some of His attributes upon these beings.

 

[saidur611]

The authority, sovereignty, supremacy, and prosperity a person possesses, for instance, truly belong to Allah. As a trial, Allah grants some of his attributes to some people in this life. Attributing all the power, possessions, etc. to a person’s personality, and thus showing fear for him, would be merely associating partners with Allah. That person is neither a divine being nor someone who possesses the power to attain anything by himself. At this point, we hardly need mention that these are only imaginary beings one creates in one’s own mind. In the Qur’an it is described thus:

Behold! Truly to Allah belong all creatures, in the heavens and on earth. What do they follow who worship as His “partners” other than Allah? They follow nothing but fancy, and they do nothing but lie. (Jonah, 66)

A person who worships someone other than Allah will live to regret his delay in understanding that those partners had no virtues whatsoever. Those partners, whom they preferred to Allah in this life, will lead them to a great grief in the hereafter. Those partners are also the main reasons why pagans take Allah, Who has the sole power, honour, and glory, and Who is also the only One to be taken as the Protector, as their enemy. On the Day of Judgment, their fate will be as narrated in the following verses:

One day shall We gather them all together. Then we shall say to the idolaters, “To your place! You and those you associated with us as ‘partners’. We shall separate them, and their “partners” will say: “It was not us that you worshipped! Allah is sufficient for a witness between us and you: we certainly knew nothing of your worship of us!” There every soul will prove the fruits of the deeds it sent before it: they will be brought back to Allah their rightful Lord, and their invented falsehoods will leave them in the lurch. (Jonah 28-30)

Then they will be asked: “Where are the deities to which you gave part-worship in derogation of Allah?” They will reply: “They have left us in the lurch: Nay, we did not invoke of old, anything that had real existence.” Thus Allah leaves the unbelievers to stray. (Al-Ghafir 73-74)

The Qur’an defines the end of the pagans as follows:

But when they saw Our punishment, they said: “We believe in Allah, the one Allah and we reject the partners we used to associate with Him.” But their professing the faith when they actually saw Our punishment was not going to profit them. Such has been Allah’s way of dealing with His servants from the most ancient times. And so the rejecters of Allah perished utterly!(Al-Ghafir, 84-85)

 

[Scott1]

Hello All viewers of this debate. I am quoting something from our holy Koran, please go through and i hope Almighty will help u to understand about HIM. may Allah bless all of us.

This thread is about the Divine Trinity... not the concept of what God means to a Muslim.

In the Qur’an, to practise idolatry is to associate any other being, any other person, or concept with Allah, considering them to be equal to Allah, and to act upon this unsound belief.

One more time:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all that is, seen and unseen.

Hope that helps.

 

[Merlin]

The authority, sovereignty, supremacy, and prosperity a person possesses, for instance, truly belong to Allah. As a trial, Allah grants some of his attributes to some people in this life. Attributing all the power, possessions, etc. to a person’s personality, and thus showing fear for him, would be merely associating partners with Allah. That person is neither a divine being nor someone who possesses the power to attain anything by himself. At this point, we hardly need mention that these are only imaginary beings one creates in one’s own mind. In the Qur’an it is described thus:

Behold! Truly to Allah belong all creatures, in the heavens and on earth. What do they follow who worship as His “partners” other than Allah? They follow nothing but fancy, and they do nothing but lie. (Jonah, 66)

A person who worships someone other than Allah will live to regret his delay in understanding that those partners had no virtues whatsoever. Those partners, whom they preferred to Allah in this life, will lead them to a great grief in the hereafter. Those partners are also the main reasons why pagans take Allah, Who has the sole power, honour, and glory, and Who is also the only One to be taken as the Protector, as their enemy. On the Day of Judgment, their fate will be as narrated in the following verses:

One day shall We gather them all together. Then we shall say to the idolaters, “To your place! You and those you associated with us as ‘partners’. We shall separate them, and their “partners” will say: “It was not us that you worshipped! Allah is sufficient for a witness between us and you: we certainly knew nothing of your worship of us!” There every soul will prove the fruits of the deeds it sent before it: they will be brought back to Allah their rightful Lord, and their invented falsehoods will leave them in the lurch. (Jonah 28-30)

Then they will be asked: “Where are the deities to which you gave part-worship in derogation of Allah?” They will reply: “They have left us in the lurch: Nay, we did not invoke of old, anything that had real existence.” Thus Allah leaves the unbelievers to stray. (Al-Ghafir 73-74)

The Qur’an defines the end of the pagans as follows:

But when they saw Our punishment, they said: “We believe in Allah, the one Allah and we reject the partners we used to associate with Him.” But their professing the faith when they actually saw Our punishment was not going to profit them. Such has been Allah’s way of dealing with His servants from the most ancient times. And so the rejecters of Allah perished utterly!(Al-Ghafir, 84-85)

Anyone who wants to read this level of detail will buy a copy of the Qu'ran. Your posts should be opinions, not long passages.

 

[Jensen]

about the Trinity. About being told that one will go to hell if they do not believe in the Trinity....I thought that it wasn't a salvational requirement to believe in it. And if this is the case as some say, then a non-trinitarian would not go to hell for not believing in it. Right? I suppose it is that some feel that it is necessary to believe that God is triune, and others say that it is not. That not all Orthodox agree on this? What is the most accepted view by Orthodox Christians on this?

Jensen

 

[Merlin]

Again, that is a question of science... but to be clear, natural selection does not explain how matter came into existance, it only gives a theory about what happened AFTER.... evolution/darwinism etc are no problem to the Church as long as the information is presented as science and not expanded to start guessing about philosophy/theology.

Sadly, the existence of God does not solve that conundrum. We all know the hypothetical question, if God created the original matter, who created God.

It is a difficult concept, but almost certainly time is not linear. It is circular, then nobody created anything, it just always was.

The latest scientific theory, is that the mass that makes up our current universe was created from the energy of an expanding enormous black hole (if a singularity can be enormous)

 

[michel]

Sadly, the existence of God does not solve that conundrum. We all know the hypothetical question, if God created the original matter, who created God.

It is a difficult concept, but almost certainly time is not linear. It is circular, then nobody created anything, it just always was.

The latest scientific theory, is that the mass that makes up our current universe was created from the energy of an expanding enormous black hole (if a singularity can be enormous)

Which, of course, puts you right back to square one, because who created the black hole ?

I suppose this is the biggest 'gap' between science and Faith - the fact that if you are going to steadfastly stick (ouch I have split an infinitive) to science alone, there is still a nebulous and unexplained 'Very beginning'.

We who have faith need not worry about who created God, because we believe he has always been there. I can see that from both sides - a source of annoyance to the atheist (because we accept something that cannot be proved nor imagined), whereas Science needs to know the full equation.

I wonder if that is why there often seems to be a hint of 'bitterness' in the way the atheist (and certainly not all of them) views the believer in a God.

 

[glasgowchick]

Hello Aqualung, were in Scripture do you see that God has flesh and bones as does Jesus ? According to John 4:24 says God is Spirit and those worshiping Him must worship Him in Spirit and truth..thanks...