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The Trinity

Merlin

Active Member
Scott1 said:
OOOH! OOOH!

We do.....:shout
Yes Scot, I think we know that. It was after all the Roman Catholics that thought it up about 300 years after the crucifixion. So the first 300 years (which is a lot of generations in those days) took place without this concept at all!

my interest was to know how many Christian sects do not believe in the Trinity. Hopefully they will step up to the podium and announced themselves. I am just curious
 

Merlin

Active Member
Aqualung said:
LDS and JW at least don't.[

thank you, it is a very strange concept. How do both of these traditions you mention reconcile the relationship then between God, Jesus, and the Holly Ghost, bearing in mind there is only one God.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Merlin said:
Yes Scot, I think we know that. It was after all the Roman Catholics that thought it up about 300 years after the crucifixion. So the first 300 years (which is a lot of generations in those days) took place without this concept at all!
Hogwash.... the divinity of Christ was proclaimed from the begining of the Church... the formal defintion may have come at a later date, but writings from early Church fathers (Tertullian, Justin, Tatian the Syrian, Athenagoras, Ignatius of Antioch) show the foundation of Trinitarian theology before the close of the year 200AD.
 

Merlin

Active Member
Maize said:
Unitarian Christians, (not to be confused with Unitarian Universalists) do not.
Well, that is slightly confusing in the names, but as long as you all know who you are it will be okay.

How do you reconcile the relationship then between God, Jesus, and the Holly Ghost, bearing in mind there is only one God.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Merlin said:
Aqualung said:
LDS and JW at least don't.[

thank you, it is a very strange concept. How do both of these traditions you mention reconcile the relationship then between God, Jesus, and the Holly Ghost, bearing in mind there is only one God.
We look at God the Father as THE God. The New Testament calls Jesus God and at the same time we find Jesus calling His Father the only God. We tend to think of "God" as more a title than a name, and the "Godhead" fits better for me. They are all members of the Godhead and all carry the title God, but God the Father is the one referred to when generally speaking of God. There is only one God the Father, but the Bible is repleat with other mentions of people carrying the title god. Some insist that they are lowercase and are therefore different, but the Hebrew words are identical - eloheim. There is one Godhead, and it is made up of three individuals. They are all one in purpose, will and perfection; but they are seperate and distinct entities.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Merlin said:
thank you, it is a very strange concept. How do both of these traditions you mention reconcile the relationship then between God, Jesus, and the Holly Ghost, bearing in mind there is only one God.
Well, I'm not quite sure what the Holly ghost is ;)...
God the Father is the Father of us and of Christ. He is the Father of our spirits, but he is also the Father of Jesus in the flesh. God has a physical body of flesh and bones, as does Christ. They are Father and Son. God the Father presides over all that, and gave to Jesus the authority he has, but Jesus is our Lord and God. The Holy ghost is a seperate personage, but he doesn't have a corporeal body. That's how he can be in all our hearts at the same time, and do all that other stuff that a corporeal body naturally resricts. They are one in purpose (God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are all doing things toward the same end), but they are not one in substance.

I don't know exactly what the JWs think, or where we differ. Perhpas may will come in and shed some light on this.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Merlin said:
Well, that is slightly confusing in the names, but as long as you all know who you are it will be okay.

How do you reconcile the relationship then between God, Jesus, and the Holly Ghost, bearing in mind there is only one God.

Are you asking me as a UU or do you want the Unitarian Christian response? And the names are not confusing at all if you understand the movements' history.
 

Merlin

Active Member
Scott1 said:
Hogwash.... the divinity of Christ was proclaimed from the begining of the Church... the formal defintion may have come at a later date, but writings from early Church fathers (Tertullian, Justin, Tatian the Syrian, Athenagoras, Ignatius of Antioch) show the foundation of Trinitarian theology before the close of the year 200AD.
That seems to have struck a raw nerve, Scott. It was not intended to offend. I did not think there was any doubt that the Trinity was formally defined in 325 AD. Yes, everybody accepts that things were written down possibly as early as 160 AD, and that is why it had to be resolved at the council in 325.

People started to question how can Jesus be divine when we are a 'one God' religion. if Jesus is divine, then he is a God. Is He a God, or is He God Himself. it was the fact that it did get written down and discussed that some semantic solution had to be found.

Nothing was written down for a couple of generations after Jesus. The first writings were St Paul, does he mention the Trinity? Somebody will know.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
It was after all the Roman Catholics that thought it up about 300 years after the crucifixion. So the first 300 years (which is a lot of generations in those days) took place without this concept at all!
Ok Merlin, I'm hesitant in quoting early church fathers concering the Trinity in the first 300 years because I'm not sure what good it will do. I would say that I think matters of highly abstract, difficult philosophical theology concerning the Trinity would not be something everybody fully understands how it works. What is it exactly that you are looking for a early writer to say? That Christ is God?

~Victor
 

Merlin

Active Member
Maize said:

Are you asking me as a UU or do you want the Unitarian Christian response? And the names are not confusing at all if you understand the movements' history.
You got me there Maize. I know less than nothing about your faith, so I do not know if you even believe in Jesus Christ, therefore I cannot know whether the question is sensible for you?

If you do, do you believe He was divine?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Merlin said:
That seems to have struck a raw nerve, Scott.
Nah... was it the "hogwash" comment? I just like to say that.:D
Yes, everybody accepts that things were written down possibly as early as 160 AD, and that is why it had to be resolved at the council in 325.
Earlier...
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin." Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (A.D. 110).
"For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God." Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 121 (A.D. 155).
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).
"[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen." Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157).

Hope that helps....
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Merlin said:
You got me there Maize. I know less than nothing about your faith, so I do not know if you even believe in Jesus Christ, therefore I cannot know whether the question is sensible for you?

If you do, do you believe He was divine?

I'll give you the copy and paste answer from the UU FAQ:

Classically, Unitarian and Universalist Christians have understood Jesus as a savior because he was a God-filled human being, not a supernatural being. He was, and still is for many UUs, an exemplar, one who has shown the way of redemptive love, in whose spirit anyone may live generously and abundantly. Among us, Jesus' very human life and teaching have been understood as products of, and in line with, the great Jewish tradition of prophets and teachers. He neither broke with that tradition nor superseded it. Many of us honor Jesus, just as many of us honor other master teachers of past or present generations.
 

Merlin

Active Member
Victor said:
Ok Merlin, I'm hesitant in quoting early church fathers concering the Trinity in the first 300 years because I'm not sure what good it will do. I would say that I think matters of highly abstract, difficult philosophical theology concerning the Trinity would not be something everybody fully understands how it works. What is it exactly that you are looking for a early writer to say? That Christ is God?

~Victor
I am not inventing a question here, Victor. If there had not been a serious semantic difficulty, the learned people of the day would not have made the difficult journey to attend the council. I am sure you will also agree it is a difficult concept. Even today not everybody accepts it.

I will make two further points. I am not looking for the early writers to say anything, if Jesus was considered divine, then that states he is at least a God if not the God.

I am not saying either that the concept of the Trinity is wrong. I just thought it would be useful of people who believe in it to set out why they believe in it, and maybe those who do not to explain why they do not. That is not difficult to understand, is it?

So maybe you could tell us why you are sure it is correct and that it does not compromise our belief in monotheism
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
I would say that I think matters of highly abstract, difficult philosophical theology concerning the Trinity would not be something everybody fully understands how it works.
OK, when the Gospel becomes "highly abstract, difficult philosophical theology" it's usually because someone's trying to justify a doctrine that is not true. I've read all the creeds, I've seen the explanations, and it's a jumble of contradictions and flowery prose meant to do nothing but confuse, thus the layman is unworthy of figuring out spiritual affairs in that he cannot understand this doctrine - he had better not worry about reading the Bible or trying to understand it; it would be better for him to just listen to whatever his minister tells him. I believe that was the logic that spawned the reformation (amidst other things, of course). If the Catholic church ahd it her way we would still be without Bibles, listening to a minister tell us that it says this and this is what it means, but all in Latin. Funny how the universal church of Christ couldn't even salvage its own language.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Dan said:
Some insist that they are lowercase and are therefore different, but the Hebrew words are identical - eloheim.
And note that the word Elohim is plural if I'm not mistaken.

Aqualung said:
Well, I'm not quite sure what the Holly ghost is ;)...
Sounds very festive to me... I can't wait for the Holidays!
 
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