the trinity

[shunyadragon]

That's simply not true as Ehrman covers, plus one can read much the same in Hitchcock's "History of the Catholic Church".

The Eastern and Western church had different takes on this for one, but there were other takes as well. In Catholic theology, it is explained that it's beyond our mortal minds to understand this and that only if we get to heaven are we likely to finally know, which leaves me out.

Ehrman simply presents a factual description of the evolution of early Christianity, and the belief in the Trinity. This does not deal with the theological questions and contradictions involving the claim of the Roman Church concerning the Trinity. In fact, his work makes it highly questionable that the Trinity is original to the time and Revelation of Jesus Christ.

If you believe sincerely yo will be left of something in the Divine mystery you can resolve it. My view there is in reality no mystery, and nothing to reveal in this world and the next, unless of course you believe in the Roman Church.

Which is why I said "reasonably close". The basic idea I was pointing to is that the Trinitarian concept shows three basic "manifestations" of God, but there are some differences as well since Jesus is also considered "true man".

Close is no brass ring. The Hindu belief is strict monotheistic. None of the manifestation of Brahman have any equivalence to the Brahman.

 

[shunyadragon]

Trinity isn't three separate Gods. Trinity is the deific notation of the persons in the triune, ie God.

Defined as three distinct persons (Gods). God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father.

No wiggle room here.

 

[outlawState]

Please. Please. Disprove this. Then, I will let ex-trinitarians be.

The issue is largely as to whether the Logos and the Holy Spirit must be regarded as having separate hypostases from God the Father, or whether they are really attributes of God the Father, as subordinate to God the Father (cf. 1 Cor 11:3).

First we must coin the neutral term "God," rather than God the Father, as the beginning of our logic exercise, as otherwise the outcome is predetermined by our choice of language.

John 1:1 suggests that the Logos is properly an attribute of God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

If the Logos has a separate identity (i.e. hypostasis) from God, then he could not be both "with God" and "God" at the same time. Note this is not talking about "God the Father." It is talking about the concept of "God" otherwise John 1:1 would be saying that the Logos is God the Father. So John 1:1 says that the Logos has the hypostasis of God but is also an attribute of God.

Only if the Logos is an attribute of "God," can he be properly described as both with God and God at the same time.

If the Logos is an attribute of God, then the Trinity (i.e. God has three hypostases) is false, for the Logos must share the same hypostasis as God the Father. Q.E.D.

 

[Desert Snake]

Defined as three distinct persons (Gods). God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father.

You're getting the doctrine, and the way it is worded, mixed up, with what I wrote.

Notice that I wrote, 'the trinity', no reference to the doctrine.

The trinity is inferred from Scripture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Trinity means three things working together as one.

Trinity
2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

I honestly thinking you are making this more complicated than it is.

The issue is largely as to whether the Logos and the Holy Spirit must be regarded as having separate hypostases from God the Father, or whether they are really attributes of God the Father, as subordinate to God the Father (cf. 1 Cor 11:3).

You have to translate this. Are you saying scripture and spirit are seperate? They have nothing to do with each other?

First we must coin the neutral term "God," rather than God the Father, as the beginning of our logic exercise, as otherwise the outcome is predetermined by our choice of language.

Youre making it complicated.

Is god/creater, jesus/son, and spirit of god related to each other?

If the Logos has a separate identity (i.e. hypostasis) from God, then he could not be both "with God" and "God" at the same time. Note this is not talking about "God the Father." It is talking about the concept of "God" otherwise John 1:1 would be saying that the Logos is God the Father. So John 1:1 says that the Logos has t

Its in corrinthians and the gospels.

You Must go by the bible not what people tell you the trinity means. People use all sorts of language to describe the relationship of the creator, savior, and spirit.

Only if the Logos is an attribute of "God," can he be properly described as both with God and God at the same time.

God is not the creator. Its a proper noun, in this case, describing the attributes of three (tri- not singular) different things. Thats why there is "and", and prepositions like "of/from/as" and image and representation.

If the Logos is an attribute of God, then the Trinity (i.e. God has three hypostases) is false, for the Logos must share the same hypostasis as God the Father. Q.E.D.

Trinity: three in one working together

Its not singular. Its a trinity. Not a duality. Just three working together and related to each other as one unit not being.

Youre stuck with the word trinity.

Use trio, traid, three, or threesome instead.

Edited.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

If I may

God is one spirit
Christ is one spirit
The holy spirit Is a spirit
They are connect=tri-nity (Tri-spirits work as one-nity)

@TrueBeliever37



Father (Job 4:17)
Son (Gospels)
Holy spirit (Judges 3:10-14; John 3:6-8)
Work together (2 Corinthians 13:14) aka Trinity

Please. Please. Disprove this. Then, I will let ex-trinitarians be.

Sorry, but what you are showing is that they are 3 different spirits working together, which is in conflict with Ephesians 4:4 (God is a Spirit, but that Spirit is the Holy Spirit)

In Revelation 20:2 when it says, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years - does that mean there are one or two mentioned here?

In Revelation 20:6 when it says, but they shall be priests of God and of Messiah, and shall reign with him a thousand years - does that mean there are one or two mentioned here?

Colossians 2:8-9 says the fulness of the Godhead dwells in him bodily.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry, but what you are showing is that they are 3 different spirits working together, which is in conflict with Ephesians 4:4 (God is a Spirit, but that Spirit is the Holy Spirit)

In Revelation 20:2 when it says, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years - does that mean there are one or two mentioned here?

In Revelation 20:6 when it says, but they shall be priests of God and of Messiah, and shall reign with him a thousand years - does that mean there are one or two mentioned here?

Three spirits?

God is spirit
Holy spirit came "from" god
Jesus spirit (and) flesh-like you are spirit and flesh-went to his father.

Unless you are saying you and jesus are god/father, Im not following you.

Its not complicated.

The best example in one verse is corinthians I posted a couple of times.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Its not complicated

Sorry, but what you are showing is that they are 3 different spirits working together, which is in conflict with Ephesians 4:4 (God is a Spirit, but that Spirit is the Holy Spirit)

One Spirit/creator/spirit is incarnated to flesh and from flesh at death, that incarnated spirit, goes back to being the creator/source.

Thats how they are related to each other.

In Revelation 20:2 when it says, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years - does that mean there are one or two mentioned here?

This says nothing about the relationship between father, son, and spirit

In Revelation 20:6 when it says, but they shall be priests of God and of Messiah, and shall reign with him a thousand years - does that mean there are one or two mentioned here?

They is more than one. You have to put context to it.

You are making gods spirit three as if god just divided himself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@TrueBeliever37

Read post #65

To understand the trinity, you must use the bible not other people's definitons.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

@TrueBeliever37

Read post #65

To understand the trinity, you must use the bible not other people's definitons.

The word trinity is not even in the bible. The doctrine was never taught by any of the apostles. The apostles were the ones taught by the Messiah, and told to spread the gospel, and teach whatsoever he had commanded them. Show me one scripture that says there is a trinity, or a triune God, or 3 persons in the Godhead. I am not interested in a man made doctrine, taught and forced on the world, hundreds of years after the apostles were dead.

If you think there is a trinity, then which of the persons is the Father? Is it the one called the Father, or the Holy Spirit, said to be the Father in Matthew 1:18-20? Where it says she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

What about Colossians 1:14-16 - Who created all things per these verses?
The Messiah -correct?

Now compare with Isaiah 44:24 where YHWH said, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

Please don't just ignore the questions. Try to answer them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I know this is fast but youre not reading what I say.

Call it a trio, triad, threesome, or three. The word trinity seems to bother you.

The word trinity is not even in the bible. The doctrine was never taught by any of the apostles. The apostles were the ones taught by the Messiah, and told to spread the gospel, and teach whatsoever he had commanded them. Show me one scripture that says there is a trinity, or a triune God, or 3 persons in the Godhead. I am not interested in a man made doctrine, taught and forced on the world, hundreds of years after the apostles were dead.

Get away from man and you will find the content in scripture.

Its above. I wont (edit/rather) repeat. Address 1 corinthians 13:14

You Must go by the bible not what people tell you the trinity means. People use all sorts of language to describe the relationship of the creator, savior, and spirit.

If you think there is a trinity, then which of the persons is the Father?

Father/creator
Son/human
Spirit/from god, the father, himself

They work together
They are interelated

Show me a scripture where these three have No relationship with each other.

Is it the one called the Father or the Holy Spirit, said to be the Father in Matthew 1:18-20? Where it says she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Its one creator.

One savior.

One spirit.

They are interrelated

Creator is spirit
Son is image of the creators word made flesh
Spirit is of god (love etc)
1 Corinthians 13:14

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I know this is fast but youre not reading what I say.

Call it a trio, triad, threesome, or three. The word trinity seems to bother you.



Get away from man and you will find the content in scripture.

Its above. I wont (edit/rather) repeat. Address 1 corinthians 13:14

You Must go by the bible not what people tell you the trinity means. People use all sorts of language to describe the relationship of the creator, savior, and spirit.



Father/creator
Son/human
Spirit/from god, the father, himself

They work together
They are interelated

Show me a scripture where these three have No relationship with each other.


Its one creator.

One savior.

One spirit.

They are interrelated

Creator is spirit
Son is image of the creators word made flesh
Spirit is of god (love etc)
1 Corinthians 13:14

Sorry but your reply makes no sense. I also had updated my post, so please reply to the questions I asked, especially regarding the creation.

I HAVE shown you scriptures, showing that the Father is the Holy Spirit - not another person. I am not trying to show you No relationship. I am trying to show you that there is only one God. God said I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. Paul said to us there is but one God, the Father. God is a Spirit - not 3 persons! John 4:24

Just because 1 Corinthians 13:14 mentions different titles doesn't mean there are 3 persons. That was what I was trying to show you when I gave those verses from Revelation. They were examples of where it sort of sounds like it could be more than one, yet it would say him (singular).

For example what about Matthew 28:19 vs Luke 24:47 ? Different accounts about the very same event. They have to mean the same thing. Look and see how the apostles, who were there, and had been taught by him, and knew what he meant, carried out the commands in the book of Acts. There are no examples in the scripture where they ever baptized anyone in the trinitarian formula. They always baptized in the name of the one that shed the blood.

 

[shunyadragon]

You're getting the doctrine, and the way it is worded, mixed up, with what I wrote.

Notice that I wrote, 'the trinity', no reference to the doctrine.

The trinity is inferred from Scripture.

Important point here. I have studied the scripture and related literature. I find that the description of the Trinity and its scriptural basis is in the New Testament not the Old Testament. The justification for the Trinity in the Old Testament is what I describe is backward reasoning and logic. Ambiguous references in the Old Testament are used to justify the Trinity as believed in traditional Christianity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm at a desktop...so...

The word trinity is not even in the bible. The doctrine was never taught by any of the apostles. The apostles were the ones taught by the Messiah, and told to spread the gospel, and teach whatsoever he had commanded them. Show me one scripture that says there is a trinity, or a triune God, or 3 persons in the Godhead. I am not interested in a man made doctrine, taught and forced on the world, hundreds of years after the apostles were dead.

Trinity does not need to be in scripture for the concept to be there

This is the trinity

God/creator: Genesis 1:1-25
Son/Savior: Gospels
Spirit/Truth/love/etc: Romans 8:2-6

Relationship:
(John 20:17) – I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Ephesians 1:3
And so forth

If you think there is a trinity, then which of the persons is the Father? Is it the one called the Father, or the Holy Spirit, said to be the Father in Matthew 1:18-20?

Where it says she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

It's called:

Father/Creator
Son/Savior
Spirit/Love from god through christ to christians

I never used "persons."

God and spirit aren't people.

What about Colossians 1:14-16 - Who created all things per these verses?

14 by whom we are set free, that is, our sins are forgiven.
15 Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.​

This is what I mean by relationship. The likeness defines the relationship among other key words: and/of/as/from

16 For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him.​

Yes?.....

The Messiah -correct?

I will say what you say of the bible is correct. I can't speak for its accuracy outside scripture.

Now compare with Isaiah 44:24 where YHWH said, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

24 "I am the Lord, your savior; I am the one who created you. I am the Lord, the Creator of all things. I alone stretched out the heavens; when I made the earth, no one helped me.​

Yes?..... Who says you are wrong?

Please don't just ignore the questions. Try to answer them.

Sorry but your reply makes no sense. I also had updated my post, so please reply to the questions I asked, especially regarding the creation.

It took me about a year to understand it. It's not like protestant evangelist churches where they give you a bible and expect god to work through you to understand it. In Catholicism and many liturgical churches (has nothing to do with the denomination itself), it's more private devotion. It's extensively prayer based and the relationship between believer and christ and god are experienced directly in both body and spirit and mind.

I wasn't indoctrinated; so, the words many Catholics use I had to pick apart. I spoke with a priest and asked him about the trinity in relationship with the Eucharist. I said, "do you guys really believe the bread and wine are christ body/flesh and blood.

He laughed. Of course not.

This is a good little tidbit. Eucharist Essene and Accidents
As for the trinity, it's like the Eucharist. Christ in communion. Communion to the people. Bonds the people as one body in christ.

I HAVE shown you scriptures, showing that the Father is the Holy Spirit - not another person. I am not trying to show you No relationship. I am trying to show you that there is only one God. God said I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. Paul said to us there is but one God, the Father. God is a Spirit - not 3 persons! John 4:24

Forget the word "person."

Relationship (def): the way in which two or more concepts, objects, or people are connected, or the state of being connected.

Where in scripture does it save the creator, savior, and spirit have nothing to do with each other?

Just because 1 Corinthians 13:14 mentions different titles doesn't mean there are 3 persons. That was what I was trying to show you when I gave those verses from Revelation.

They were examples of where it sort of sounds like it could be more than one, yet it would say him (singular).

Never said persons. Chuck that word.

Yeah. Christianity words are interesting. The latter is how one would describe the trinity. I'm taking out the metaphors.

For example what about Matthew 28:19 vs Luke 24:47 ?

Different accounts about the very same event. They have to mean the same thing. Look and see how the apostles, who were there, and had been taught by him, and knew what he meant, carried out the commands in the book of Acts. There are no examples in the scripture where they ever baptized anyone in the trinitarian formula. They always baptized in the name of the one that shed the blood.

19 Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,​

Trinitarians use and because it is a conjunction word showing the relationship between three (whatever word you want to put here) as one unit.

There are no examples in the scripture where they ever baptized anyone in the trinitarian formula

Mathews 28:19 (edit: Translation differences)

47 and in his name the message about repentance and the forgiveness of sins must be preached to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. -and- "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@TrueBeliever37 I erased the other one. This one has scriptures and answers your questions better

 

[Desert Snake]

Important point here. I have studied the scripture and related literature. I find that the description of the Trinity and its scriptural basis is in the New Testament not the Old Testament. The justification for the Trinity in the Old Testament is what I describe is backward reasoning and logic. Ambiguous references in the Old Testament are used to justify the Trinity as believed in traditional Christianity.

It isn't backward reasoning. The reason why we can read the Bible , NT, without contradictions in deific names and titles, is because the theology, is parallel to the OT.

 

[outlawState]

Trinity means three things working together as one.

Trinity
2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

I honestly thinking you are making this more complicated than it is.

No. When we talk about the Trinity, we have to recall its fundamental philosophical definition, 3 x hypostases of God being God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

We cannot talk about the 3 revelations of God and pretend that they substitute for the "Trinity." The "Trinity" is far too well defined, as it goes back to Nicea, for there to be any ambiguity as to what it infers in terms of there being three hypostases of God.

You have to translate this. Are you saying scripture and spirit are seperate? They have nothing to do with each other?

I am saying that if X is an attribute of Y, then X does not have a separate "hypostasis" from Y. Only if X and Y have separate hypostases can X be said to be not an attribute of Y.

hypostasis (philosophy): an underlying reality or substance, as opposed to attributes

Hence you are required to know that the "Trinity" is defined as a philosophical proposition (3 x hypostases), not a theological proposition (1 x hypostasis).

Your problem lies in that your philosophy does not reflect your theology.

Youre making it complicated.

Is god/creater, jesus/son, and spirit of god related to each other?

Of course they are related by Jesus and the Holy Spirit being cast as attributes of God. But as having separate hypostases - well that is for philosophy to rationalize.

But if you're not understanding the complexity of it, perhaps you shouldn't advance propositions that you are not entirely sure of?

Its in corrinthians and the gospels.

You Must go by the bible not what people tell you the trinity means. People use all sorts of language to describe the relationship of the creator, savior, and spirit.

The Trinity isn't in the bible. A unity is in the bible. "I and my Father are one." Jesus said "Before Abraham was born I AM." "If you have seen me you have seen the Father."

Which is greater, unity with God, or the form of God's messenger?

What I say is that in theology, unity with God is of far more importance than the form of the messenger of God. With philosophy, the form or manifestation is the most important aspect.

I am not saying Jesus is God the Father. I am saying that the Logos is an attribute of God, not a separate hypostasis from God. Jesus the son of God was separate from God the Father, being made "a little lower than the angels;" and that he cannot be constituted vis-a-vis his relation to God as having a separate hypostasis (in theological terms). The son is the image of the hypostasis of God (Heb 1:3). If he is the "image" of the hypostasis of God, his hypostasis cannot be distinguished from God by mere man.

God is not the creator. Its a proper noun, in this case, describing the attributes of three (tri- not singular) different things. Thats why there is "and", and prepositions like "of/from/as" and image and representation.

Trinity: three in one working together

Its not singular. Its a trinity. Not a duality. Just three working together and related to each other as one unit not being.

Youre stuck with the word trinity.

Use trio, traid, three, or threesome instead.

I absolutely disagree. "You" are stuck with the word Trinity. The bible knows nothing of it.

 

[Desert Snake]

Trinity is a description. It is directly inferred in the Bible, ex. Matthew 28:19
What may differ, is the concept of the persons in the trinity, ie how they relate to each other, or the theism, for example there are those who do not read the OT, and thusly might have their own theories, what not.

The trinity, being a description of the father, son, and Spirit, itself, is directly inferenced. You don't need a doctrine to notice that.

 

[InChrist]

Not all denominations of Christianity, unless you are limiting Christianity to the denominations that do believe in the Trinity.

The Unity Church, and the Jehovah Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity to name two.

I don't consider the teachings of Unity or Jehovah's Witnesses to line up with the Bible or the message of Christ.

 

[InChrist]

I strongly disagree. The Trinity is a false doctrine, which was never taught by the apostles. By the way, John 15:26 does not say the Holy Spirit will bear witness that the Trinity is true.

I am one of the ones that openly and continually reject the doctrine of the Trinity.

I'm so sorry that you reject the God revealed in the biblical scriptures.