the trinity

[TrueBeliever37]

However, JHVH, who is Jesus, is the person. In other words, Jesus was not 'possessed', by deity, or such.
This means that Jesus, being YHVH, is Himself, God. Spirit form Jesus is still that aspect, of YHVH.

I believe YHWH the eternal Spirit, who didn't have flesh and blood to shed for man's sins, made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Every knee is going to bow and every tongue confess that the Messiah is YHWH. Philippians 2:10-11

 

[Desert Snake]

I believe YHWH the eternal Spirit, who didn't have flesh and blood to shed for man's sins, made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Every knee is going to bow and every tongue confess that the Messiah is YHWH. Philippians 2:10-11

We have the same trinity belief, so I don't think we are actually disagreeing, here.

I do believe that Jesus is a being , Himself, though. In spirit form.

 

[outlawState]

I believe YHWH the eternal Spirit, who didn't have flesh and blood to shed for man's sins, made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Every knee is going to bow and every tongue confess that the Messiah is YHWH. Philippians 2:10-11

This theology is quite incorrect as you are treating YHWH as a person when he is God. An analogy for God is a corporation. People can be sent out from the corporation on sabbatical but the corporation still remains the same. By your statement, the entire corporation would cease to exist if it were God the Father who "made himself a body." No God the Father did not "make himself a body." He sent the Logos instead.

 

[outlawState]

We have the same trinity belief, so I don't think we are actually disagreeing, here.

I do believe that Jesus is a being , Himself, though. In spirit form.

Jesus came in th

We have the same trinity belief, so I don't think we are actually disagreeing, here.

I do believe that Jesus is a being , Himself, though. In spirit form.

It is axiomatic that when you refer to Jesus you denote him as coming in the flesh. This is to avoid heresy.

“By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3.

 

[outlawState]

However, JHVH, who is Jesus, is the person. In other words, Jesus was not 'possessed', by deity, or such.
This means that Jesus, being YHVH, is Himself, God. Spirit form Jesus is still that aspect, of YHVH.

No, this is confused thinking. Jesus came in the flesh. In "aspect" Jesus is a man, not God. Although the heavenly logos was YHWH, Jesus was sent out from God. He identifies as YHWH but was made a "little lower than the angels." Psalm 8:4-6. YHWH is always above the angels. It is blasphemous to allege that God is below the angels.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus came in th

It is axiomatic that when you refer to Jesus you denote him as coming in the flesh. This is to avoid heresy.

“By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist …” 1 John 4:2-3.

Eh? Actually, I don't denote Him, that way.
Jesus is Jesus, and pre-exists Adam.

 

[outlawState]

Eh? Actually, I don't denote Him, that way.
Jesus is Jesus, and pre-exists Adam.

You said "Jesus, being YHVH, is Himself, God." My question to you. How can God be lower than the angels?

 

[outlawState]

Father, Son, Spirit, are all God. God is a name,

You mean the Father, in this context. Jesus is clearly God, so is the Father. The Scripture is quite clear on this.

Jesus is the son of God. Only under Trinitarianism (polytheism) does Jesus migrate from being the son of God to God the son.

 

[outlawState]

Ok, however, I'm not sure how you're going to square Jesus clearly pre-existing His incarnation.

Jesus was created. Psalm 40:6. Yet he also pre-existed as the Logos. ergo his soul is of God, but his body is of the world. Your problems spring from your inability to understand what "made flesh" infers. It does not infer that he floated down from heaven, as in a pagan theophany. Such is a pagan way of thinking.http://biblehub.com/psalms/40-6.htm

 

[Hockeycowboy]

how different christian denominations define the trinity? are there christians who don't believe in the trinity? what are the roles of the trinity?

These are good questions, because the explanation of it varies from one church to another.

In the Scriptures, Christians are counseled to “follow” Christ (1 Peter 2:21), never does it say to worship him...he said to worship his Father (John 4:23-24), as he himself did. — John 20:17

As a ‘follower’ of Christ, I consider myself a Christian, as do my fellow worshippers of his Father, Jehovah. We are Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Let me ask you this: in light of Jesus’ words at John 15:14, who would you consider a Christian? One who says “I worship Christ,” but doesn’t obey him, or one who follows Christ by obeying him?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26)

Oh Grief! Don’t ‘deny the doctrine of the trinity’, but trinitarians can deny their trinitarian brothers when they kill each other during conflicts! The history of Christendom is rife with such events! - Titus 1:16; see 1 John 3:10-15.
They’ve made themselves part of the world, no different than most other religions. — James 4:4.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Jesus said "one." 1 != 3.

It's Creator: "I want to save humanity, but they didn't listen to what I had to say. So, I will make what I have to say, my message, incarnated to flesh. Once its incarnated, it can walk around the people and tell them of my plan for salvation for my people through jesus as the messen-ger. Because jesus is my incarnated message and son, he is not different than me the creator. We are related to each other like father and son. As such, we are one.

If three people were one it would not be a trinity but a singularity.
Trinity means unit of three together

So, no. Jesus, creator, and spirit are not one person. They are three.

You can use the word person does not always mean human. English is weird like that.

God is one Lord (Deu 6:4). God is spirit, not person. God is not a "person" either one person or three persons.

Person meaning one of three categories.

Person: One (such as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties

It's not always referred to as a human being.

Relationship between persons is not an analogy if God is not a person. What is the relation between the Holy Spirit and you? Brother, sister, friend, foe? "Relation" is not really an appropriate term is it?

Creator
Spirit
Savior

All have relationship with each other

Take out the word person and trinity; it's throwing you off.

So you refuse to address the trinity as defined by philosophy? It is a cop out.

We're not talking about a philosophy. I'm specifically describing the actual word trinity; and, what it means.

This is the Catechism of the Catholic Church

240 Jesus revealed that God is Father in an unheard-of sense: he is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."6

The philosophy, if you like, is that the father and son are in relationship with each other. Given their relationship, they are a dual. When christ died, the spirit of god through his son came among the people. That spirit (people call holy) is what brings people together in god through christ.

Since three ideas/persons/concepts/whatever come together and relate to each other, they make one unit. That is the trinity.​

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus’] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

As for the philosophy, are you talking from the Catechism and bible or what people tell you?​

The disagreement is that God is comprised of "parts." There are no parts to God. God does not have a body that he should have parts.

Parts??? That's weird.

It's like a family. You have two wives and and a child. They are a trinity, one unit, one family. They aren't each other; nor, are they in parts. Yet, they are a family in culture and values and religion. So even though one wife isn't her wife and the children aren't their mothers, they are still one unit.

There are no parts that is a whole. There are parts that make up a whole.

To have parts you need a body. Have you seen God's body (excluding the church)?

Yes. The body of christ is explicit in scripture.

The body of god through christ is the Church.

When you worship christ, you are worshiping within the church not a person hanging on a cross (that's barbaric). The Church and Mass is not about someone dying on the cross but the people dying in that person on the Cross. You must have a church to worship christ.

Three (names) in one is OK, because the bible concurs. But not "three persons" as God is not a person. Three concepts in one, also. But is it not also one in three? The Father in all, and in himself? One in three and three in one infer what as the lowest numeric? One. Yet we can distinguish three, I'll agree. But if we distinguish three, it does not nullify unity.

You're stuck on words.

The bible says it differently than how you're describing it.

The bible defines person by roles (creator, savior, spirit)
It defines relationship by divinity (image of/you are my son/etc)
It defines "as one" as like in purpose and mission not as separate people. (Creator isn't the son and son it's the spirit)

So trinity does not nullify unity, and if that's the case, why use trinity? What are we trying to prove? Trinity is less important than unity. That's my point. Unity is more important to prevent the biblical God looking like and being defined as a pagan trinity.

I think the christian world would be better if they took out the word trinity and probably say triad or threesom or just relationship between three parties.

Trinity is a unity.

In English, trinity is a unity of three.
Duality is a unity of two
Singularity is one unit

The relation is divinity itself, the divinity of the Father. The Father is the relation. The relation between JC and the Father is the Father himself.

Yes....?

I just think ya'll have issues with the word trinity. Other than that, it's not that complicated.

 

[MountainPine]

Here is my spin on it: (I'll be quoting from the ISR version unless specified)

No one has seen Elohim at any time. If we love one another, Elohim does stay in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

Yahushua was definitely the Son of God and I am certainly not denying his divinity, but to say that he was the incarnation of God is contradictory to his own words (which I show below) and defies reason. No one can be their own father or their own son. Consider the verse quoted above (1 John 4:12). If Yahushua was God, then many people have seen God, but no one has seen God. Another thing to consider that if Yahushua was God then who was he praying to when he was on Earth? Himself? Many Christians will say “The Trinity is a mystery and it can't be fully understood.” The reason why no one can understand it is because it cannot be understood. The Trinity doctrine, or the Athanasian doctrine is unbiblical.

First I'll address the first chapter of John. I'm not going to quote it because I assume that all of you already know it. According to scripture (Malachi 3:6, John 4:24) God is unable to change which means his being cannot manifest into material form. In John 1, it talks about the Word in which is described as being God and becoming flesh. In Greek, the Word is known as the Logos (Λογος ), which means 'applied knowledge'. Yahushua was the representative of the Word; the speaker of the knowledge of God. God chose Yahushua to bestow his knowledge to, thus making him the Messiah, which is the office in which he served. Moses also served this office as well, hence the name Moses is English for mosheh, which means 'messiah' in Paleo-Hebrew. When scripture states that the Word became flesh, it means that the spirit of truth possessed Yahushua. He had the mind of God, but was not God's actual being. The Greeks revered the Logos so much (the SPIRIT of truth) that they gave it a personification. Verse 3 is talking about God, not Yahushua. John 1 is only talking about the Logos and doesn't mention anything about Yahushua until verse 17. In verse 15 where John the Baptist said "He who comes after me has become before me, because He was before me", he was referring to the spirit of the Messiah (the Word) in which was the office that Yahushua served, but was not referring Yahushua's natural person. The 'trinity' (if you want to call it that) can be understood as the spirits of creation (Father), knowledge (the Word), and wisdom (Holy Spirit), and this can be confirmed by 1 John 5:7.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 KJV

Here is a list of scripture passages which disprove the trinity, or the same-substance doctrine, most of which are Yahushua's own words:

And as He was setting out on the way, one came running, and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit everlasting life?” And יהושע said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim. Mark 10:17-18

“And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, 'Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit everlasting life?' So יהושע said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim” Luke 18:18-19

“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also does seek such to worship Him. “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:23-24

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

“Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me. “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. John 5:30-31

“You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you did love Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. John 14:28

"יהושע said to her, “Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My Elohim and your Elohim.’ ” John 20:17

The Elohim and Father of our Master יהושע Messiah, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 2 Corinthians 11:31

Another source of scripture commonly used is John 14:6. “I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come into the Father except through Me.” Let's take a look at the entire passage, verses 1-12:

“Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me. ‘In My Father’s house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. ‘And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too. ‘And where I go you know, and the way you know.’ T’oma said to Him, ‘Master, we do not know where You are going, and how are we able to know the way?’ יהושע said to him, ‘I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ‘If you had known Me, you would have known My Father too. From now on you know Him, and have seen.’ Philip said to Him, ‘Master, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.’ יהושע said to him, ‘Have I been with you so long, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’? ‘Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak from Myself. But the Father who stays in Me does His works. ‘Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, otherwise believe Me because of the works themselves. ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he shall do also. And greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.” John 14:1-12

What Christ was actually saying in this passage is that He did the works of the Father and believed the Father, therefore the Father was inside of him. We do not see the Father as Christ, but we see the Father in Christ. ‘The Way, the Truth, and the Life’ is the teachings and works of Christ and the good nature of the Father, which is the Torah. (Psalms 119:1, Psalms 119:142; Proverbs 13:14) Faith in Yahushua is equivalent to the imitation of Yahushua. If we have faith in Christ, we must walk in His footsteps and live by His example; this is what Yahushua is talking about in this passage. In verse 7, He says “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also...” This is not a claim that He was God. 'Know' in this verse uses Strong's G1097 γινώσκω (ginōskō) which means “To perceive, to understand, to have knowledge of” meaning to know his way, his practices, his example. Yahushua was not referring to his person, but the likeness of the way he walked, God's law (Matthew 5:17-19, John 14:15)

 

[MountainPine]

Another source used is John 8:58 “יהושע said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." "I am" here is comprised of G1473 and G1510. The exact same phrase is also used in verses 24 and 28, but virtually all modern English translations insert "he" after them, as in "I am he." Clearly the phrase is being used in precisely the same way in verse 58, yet the "he" is purposefully omitted in order to create a mysterious-sounding hook upon which to hang trinitarian doctrine. In all 3 cases, "he" refers to Christ's identity as the Messiah, not the Father. And when he said “before Abraham” he meant that His office, the spirit of the Messiah, or the Word existed before Abraham. He was tracing his tradition back to the Order of Melchizedek, a community whom knew the Word. And as for “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30), this means the Christ's will was one with the Father's will. He was certainly not claiming to be God in the flesh.

And without doubt great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 KJV

Modern translations do not read, "God" at 1 Timothy 3:16. Trinitarians make this particular claim by quoting from the King James Version. Despite the fact that scholars agree that the KJV reading is a corruption, Trinitarians—even those who do not normally read the KJV—continue to cherry-pick this verse from the KJV.

When the Christological controversies were occurring in the fourth century, we do not see even one solitary person making a reference to this passage as evidence for the deity of Christ. This undeniably proves it was unknown to them. If indeed 1 Timothy 3:16 really said "God was manifest in the flesh," we can most definitely be sure this passage would have most been brought forward as "Exhibit A." Yet, not one soul mentions it even though this passage more than any other would have supported the teaching that the incarnate Christ was "God." But the facts remain as they are and it was never mentioned once in the myriads of documentation that exist illustrating what was argued in these debates. There is a good reason that no one in the fourth century church ever mentioned the passage. The word "God" did not appear in 1 Timothy 3:16 until much later. It first appeared in manuscripts after Trinitarian dogma was fully developed and canonized and is an obvious later alteration. The oldest and best manuscripts do not have the word "God" (theos) in 1 Timothy 3:16 which is why modern Bible translations do not have the word "God" at 1 Timothy 3:16 either.

There are also several passages in the New Testament that make it appear that Yahushua is the Creator. (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 8:9, Colossians 1:15-17, Hebrews 1:2, 10) First we need to understand that there will be a new creation, an establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth for the Elect for 1000 years and for everyone else who passed the judgment after Satan's death. Yahushua will be responsible for the creation of the Kingdom on Earth. He was sent to teach the Word on Earth 2000 years ago, thus creating immortals out of whoever obeyed His word. That being said, the scripture references listed which speak of Christ's creative role can be re-examined. When Paul spoke of "One Master, יהושע Messiah, through whom are all things and through whom we exist" (1 Corinthians 8:6) he was plainly referring to the new creation that will arise from his redemptive work rather than to the original creation. It is in this sense that Christ is "the beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14).

Similarly the two passages in Hebrews do not imply that Yahushua was present at the literal creation or that he took part in it. In 1:2 where we read "through whom also he created the world" the word translated 'world' is not kosmos, the word for the literal earth, but aiönias. This is the plural of aion which simply means an 'age', and teaches that God had Yahushua in mind from the beginning, and all the subsequent 'ages' through which the world has passed have been organized with God's messianic purpose in mind. No trinitarian inference can therefore be drawn from the allusion, especially in view of the context of this phrase, where it is stated that Yahushua was "appointed heir of all things", which of necessity indicates authority of the Father over the Son, thus ruling out any suggestion of eternal co-equality between them.

The passage in Hebrews 1:10 that alludes to Yahushua as a creator needs to be read with the purpose of this epistle clearly in mind, which was to demonstrate the superiority of the ministry of Christ. The first of many examples of this superiority is that Christ is greater than the messengers through whom the Word was originally given (2:2). To sustain this argument the writer quotes several Messianic psalms, one of which is Psalm 102 which undoubtedly refers to the future rule of the Messiah when the "new" heavens and earth of his rule are established. The psalmist speaks of God's appointed time to favor Zion (v13), of the time when God will appear in glory and all the rulers and nations of the world will do homage to him (vv15,16,21-22), and also of the time when a "people that shall be created" shall fear Yahweh (v18,AV,NIV). The psalm is looking forward to the new creation established by Yahushua and which will be revealed at his second coming. It is in this context that it goes on to describe a change of heavens and earth in the words later quoted in Hebrews:

"Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of thy hands. They will perish, but thou dost endure; they will all wear out like a garment. Thou changest them like raiment, and they pass away; but thou art the same, and thy years have no end" Psalm 102:25-27 KJV.

Now to address Isaiah 9:6.

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. NKJV

The phrase where Isaiah 9:6 says "the Mighty God" uses Strong's H410 אל which means a god, not the Most High God, otherwise it would use H3061 instead. And the Septuagint (which is more accurate and much older than the Masoretic text) does not even mention the child being the "Mighty God" or the "Everlasting Father".

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. Isaiah 9:6 LXX

 

[syo]

Let me ask you this: in light of Jesus’ words at John 15:14, who would you consider a Christian? One who says “I worship Christ,” but doesn’t obey him, or one who follows Christ by obeying him?

the second by all means. the first is a liar.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Here is my spin on it: (I'll be quoting from the ISR version unless specified)

No one has seen Elohim at any time. If we love one another, Elohim does stay in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

Yahushua was definitely the Son of God and I am certainly not denying his divinity, but to say that he was the incarnation of God is contradictory to his own words (which I show below) and defies reason. No one can be their own father or their own son. Consider the verse quoted above (1 John 4:12). If Yahushua was God, then many people have seen God, but no one has seen God. Another thing to consider that if Yahushua was God then who was he praying to when he was on Earth? Himself? Many Christians will say “The Trinity is a mystery and it can't be fully understood.” The reason why no one can understand it is because it cannot be understood. The Trinity doctrine, or the Athanasian doctrine is unbiblical.

First I'll address the first chapter of John. I'm not going to quote it because I assume that all of you already know it. According to scripture (Malachi 3:6, John 4:24) God is unable to change which means his being cannot manifest into material form. In John 1, it talks about the Word in which is described as being God and becoming flesh. In Greek, the Word is known as the Logos (Λογος ), which means 'applied knowledge'. Yahushua was the representative of the Word; the speaker of the knowledge of God. God chose Yahushua to bestow his knowledge to, thus making him the Messiah, which is the office in which he served. Moses also served this office as well, hence the name Moses is English for mosheh, which means 'messiah' in Paleo-Hebrew. When scripture states that the Word became flesh, it means that the spirit of truth possessed Yahushua. He had the mind of God, but was not God's actual being. The Greeks revered the Logos so much (the SPIRIT of truth) that they gave it a personification. Verse 3 is talking about God, not Yahushua. John 1 is only talking about the Logos and doesn't mention anything about Yahushua until verse 17. In verse 15 where John the Baptist said "He who comes after me has become before me, because He was before me", he was referring to the spirit of the Messiah (the Word) in which was the office that Yahushua served, but was not referring Yahushua's natural person. The 'trinity' (if you want to call it that) can be understood as the spirits of creation (Father), knowledge (the Word), and wisdom (Holy Spirit), and this can be confirmed by 1 John 5:7.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 KJV

Here is a list of scripture passages which disprove the trinity, or the same-substance doctrine, most of which are Yahushua's own words:

And as He was setting out on the way, one came running, and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit everlasting life?” And יהושע said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim. Mark 10:17-18

“And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, 'Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit everlasting life?' So יהושע said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim” Luke 18:18-19

“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also does seek such to worship Him. “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:23-24

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

“Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me. “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. John 5:30-31

“You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you did love Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. John 14:28

"יהושע said to her, “Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My Elohim and your Elohim.’ ” John 20:17

The Elohim and Father of our Master יהושע Messiah, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 2 Corinthians 11:31

Another source of scripture commonly used is John 14:6. “I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come into the Father except through Me.” Let's take a look at the entire passage, verses 1-12:

“Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me. ‘In My Father’s house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. ‘And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too. ‘And where I go you know, and the way you know.’ T’oma said to Him, ‘Master, we do not know where You are going, and how are we able to know the way?’ יהושע said to him, ‘I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ‘If you had known Me, you would have known My Father too. From now on you know Him, and have seen.’ Philip said to Him, ‘Master, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.’ יהושע said to him, ‘Have I been with you so long, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’? ‘Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak from Myself. But the Father who stays in Me does His works. ‘Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, otherwise believe Me because of the works themselves. ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he shall do also. And greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.” John 14:1-12

What Christ was actually saying in this passage is that He did the works of the Father and believed the Father, therefore the Father was inside of him. We do not see the Father as Christ, but we see the Father in Christ. ‘The Way, the Truth, and the Life’ is the teachings and works of Christ and the good nature of the Father, which is the Torah. (Psalms 119:1, Psalms 119:142; Proverbs 13:14) Faith in Yahushua is equivalent to the imitation of Yahushua. If we have faith in Christ, we must walk in His footsteps and live by His example; this is what Yahushua is talking about in this passage. In verse 7, He says “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also...” This is not a claim that He was God. 'Know' in this verse uses Strong's G1097 γινώσκω (ginōskō) which means “To perceive, to understand, to have knowledge of” meaning to know his way, his practices, his example. Yahushua was not referring to his person, but the likeness of the way he walked, God's law (Matthew 5:17-19, John 14:15)

That ISR is an interesting version, to say the least! It’s great it differentiates between “Lord” and the Divine Name!

Can I ask a favor? Will you please post Philippians 2:5-6 in the ISR?
Thank you!

 

[MountainPine]

For, let this mind be in you which was also in Messiah יהושע, who, being in the form of Elohim, did not regard equality with Elohim a matter to be grasped. ISR

Keep in mind, it says "being in the form", meaning perfected in the nature of God. otherwise it would say "who, was the being of Elohim"

Elohim is plural, which means "gods". I am not a monotheist. I believe that the Elohim are extraterrestrial humans with uncorrupted DNA. They serve Yahweh and were the creators of Earth and man (Genesis 1:26). That being said, Christ was not only their equal, but was placed as the head of them. He had their likeness, meaning he was a god, but not the Most High, Yahweh, who is the mind of the universe. That is what God is—a mind. God can manifest himself at will through anybody through thought, but I don't believe that God, being a spirit (or more specifically, a 5th dimensional being) manifested his actual substance into a 3rd dimensional body. If he had, then he would have lost his omnipresence.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

For, let this mind be in you which was also in Messiah יהושע, who, being in the form of Elohim, did not regard equality with Elohim a matter to be grasped. ISR

Keep in mind, it says "being in the form", meaning perfected in the nature of God. otherwise it would say "who, was the being of Elohim"

Elohim is plural, which means "gods". I am not a monotheist. I believe that the Elohim are extraterrestrial humans with uncorrupted DNA. They serve Yahweh and were the creators of Earth and man (Genesis 1:26). That being said, Christ was not only their equal, but was placed as the head of them. He had their likeness, meaning he was a god, but not the Most High, Yahweh, who is the mind of the universe. That is what God is—a mind. God can manifest himself at will through anybody through thought, but I don't believe that God, being a spirit (or more specifically, a 5th dimensional being) manifested his actual substance into a 3rd dimensional body. If he had, then he would have lost his omnipresence.

Wow, interesting views, especially regarding Elohim.

Thank you for your response— that was quick!

I am a monotheist, I worship Yahweh (Jehovah) alone...following the example set by Christ, because that’s what he did (John 20:17; John 4:23-24).

Now, I recognize the existence of other gods: according to Greek, they can simply mean ‘powerful ones.’ You don’t worship these though...do you?

What I found thought-provoking in the Bible, is how the Hebrew writers used the word ‘Elohim’ in quoting pagan worshippers, how they viewed their gods. These gods were single entities, yet the word / title ‘Elohim’ applied to them:
Judges 11:24; 1 Kings 11:5; 2 Kings 1:2.
They were referring to their gods as being superlative, not a plurality.

Just something to keep in mind. That Elohim can mean “the best”, not necessarily ‘many’.

Take care.

 

[InChrist]

Oh Grief! Don’t ‘deny the doctrine of the trinity’, but trinitarians can deny their trinitarian brothers when they kill each other during conflicts! The history of Christendom is rife with such events! - Titus 1:16; see 1 John 3:10-15.
They’ve made themselves part of the world, no different than most other religions. — James 4:4.

Do you want to talk about apples ...or oranges, the Trinity...or war? Because there are wars in which some, who claim to believe the Trinity, kill each other does not necessarily discount the triune nature of God...if that is truly His Nature. I don't think God is determined by what humans do or don't do. There are men who claim to believe in marriage and yet they secretly abuse their wives...does that discount marriage as a valid institution or mean because throughout history a lot of marriages have been rife with domestic abuse that marriage is therefore invalid?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

This theology is quite incorrect as you are treating YHWH as a person when he is God. An analogy for God is a corporation. People can be sent out from the corporation on sabbatical but the corporation still remains the same. By your statement, the entire corporation would cease to exist if it were God the Father who "made himself a body." No God the Father did not "make himself a body." He sent the Logos instead.

Sorry, but I don't go by analogies, I only accept scripture to prove points.

YHWH is God, the only God. He didn't have flesh and blood to sacrifice for man's sins. God was manifest in the flesh, whether you understand it or not. 1 Timothy 3:16

Question - Who created everything? Was it the Messiah, as stated in Colossians 1:14-16 or was it YHWH who said he made all things, and did it alone and by himself as stated in Isaiah 44:24 ?

or you can understand that it was YHWH dwelling in that body, and it all makes sense. The Messiah said the Father that dwelleth in me, he does the works. John 14:7-10
The fulness of the Godhead dwells in him bodily. Colossians 2:9
God was in Messiah, reconciling the world unto himself. 2 Corinthians 5:19

Logos means thought, idea, concept, plan. It was the plan of God that was in the beginning with him. It was the plan of God, and the carrying out of the plan that John was talking about. The plan was with God, and it involved God, and nothing was done without the plan in mind, and when the time came for God to take on flesh, that part of the plan was carried out. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18 For example Revelation 13:8 says the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. How could that be, except in the mind or plan of God? We know it didn't literally happen until around 33AD.