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the trinity

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
Now, I recognize the existence of other gods: according to Greek, they can simply mean ‘powerful ones.’ You don’t worship these though...do you?

It all depends on what you mean by "worship". If you mean to ask if I pray to them, then no. However, worship can also mean imitating Christ (John 17:11, Romans 8:14), and if one is imitating Christ, then he is also imitating the elohim and also the Most High (and therefore, worshiping them).

To realize the existence of many gods, but only worship one is classified as henotheism.

They were referring to their gods as being superlative, not a plurality.

Just something to keep in mind. That Elohim can mean “the best”, not necessarily ‘many’.

I agree, but it all depends on the context of scripture. It can mean either or, but the context of plurality applies to how Elohim is used in Genesis 1 and in most cases in Paul's epistles. The Old Testament uses "the LORD God" (or "יהוה Elohim" in the ISR) to refer to Yahweh's wholeness, which is inclusive of the elohim.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Here is my spin on it: (I'll be quoting from the ISR version unless specified)

No one has seen Elohim at any time. If we love one another, Elohim does stay in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

Yahushua was definitely the Son of God and I am certainly not denying his divinity, but to say that he was the incarnation of God is contradictory to his own words (which I show below) and defies reason. No one can be their own father or their own son. Consider the verse quoted above (1 John 4:12). If Yahushua was God, then many people have seen God, but no one has seen God. Another thing to consider that if Yahushua was God then who was he praying to when he was on Earth? Himself? Many Christians will say “The Trinity is a mystery and it can't be fully understood.” The reason why no one can understand it is because it cannot be understood. The Trinity doctrine, or the Athanasian doctrine is unbiblical.

First I'll address the first chapter of John. I'm not going to quote it because I assume that all of you already know it. According to scripture (Malachi 3:6, John 4:24) God is unable to change which means his being cannot manifest into material form. In John 1, it talks about the Word in which is described as being God and becoming flesh. In Greek, the Word is known as the Logos (Λογος ), which means 'applied knowledge'. Yahushua was the representative of the Word; the speaker of the knowledge of God. God chose Yahushua to bestow his knowledge to, thus making him the Messiah, which is the office in which he served. Moses also served this office as well, hence the name Moses is English for mosheh, which means 'messiah' in Paleo-Hebrew. When scripture states that the Word became flesh, it means that the spirit of truth possessed Yahushua. He had the mind of God, but was not God's actual being. The Greeks revered the Logos so much (the SPIRIT of truth) that they gave it a personification. Verse 3 is talking about God, not Yahushua. John 1 is only talking about the Logos and doesn't mention anything about Yahushua until verse 17. In verse 15 where John the Baptist said "He who comes after me has become before me, because He was before me", he was referring to the spirit of the Messiah (the Word) in which was the office that Yahushua served, but was not referring Yahushua's natural person. The 'trinity' (if you want to call it that) can be understood as the spirits of creation (Father), knowledge (the Word), and wisdom (Holy Spirit), and this can be confirmed by 1 John 5:7.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 KJV

Here is a list of scripture passages which disprove the trinity, or the same-substance doctrine, most of which are Yahushua's own words:

And as He was setting out on the way, one came running, and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit everlasting life?” And יהושע said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim. Mark 10:17-18

“And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, 'Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit everlasting life?' So יהושע said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim” Luke 18:18-19

“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also does seek such to worship Him. “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:23-24

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

“Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me. “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. John 5:30-31

“You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you did love Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. John 14:28

"יהושע said to her, “Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My Elohim and your Elohim.’ ” John 20:17

The Elohim and Father of our Master יהושע Messiah, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 2 Corinthians 11:31

Another source of scripture commonly used is John 14:6. “I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come into the Father except through Me.” Let's take a look at the entire passage, verses 1-12:

“Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in Elohim, believe also in Me. ‘In My Father’s house are many staying places. And if not, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. ‘And if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you might be too. ‘And where I go you know, and the way you know.’ T’oma said to Him, ‘Master, we do not know where You are going, and how are we able to know the way?’ יהושע said to him, ‘I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ‘If you had known Me, you would have known My Father too. From now on you know Him, and have seen.’ Philip said to Him, ‘Master, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.’ יהושע said to him, ‘Have I been with you so long, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’? ‘Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak from Myself. But the Father who stays in Me does His works. ‘Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, otherwise believe Me because of the works themselves. ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he shall do also. And greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.” John 14:1-12

What Christ was actually saying in this passage is that He did the works of the Father and believed the Father, therefore the Father was inside of him. We do not see the Father as Christ, but we see the Father in Christ. ‘The Way, the Truth, and the Life’ is the teachings and works of Christ and the good nature of the Father, which is the Torah. (Psalms 119:1, Psalms 119:142; Proverbs 13:14) Faith in Yahushua is equivalent to the imitation of Yahushua. If we have faith in Christ, we must walk in His footsteps and live by His example; this is what Yahushua is talking about in this passage. In verse 7, He says “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also...” This is not a claim that He was God. 'Know' in this verse uses Strong's G1097 γινώσκω (ginōskō) which means “To perceive, to understand, to have knowledge of” meaning to know his way, his practices, his example. Yahushua was not referring to his person, but the likeness of the way he walked, God's law (Matthew 5:17-19, John 14:15)

I have more I would have liked to say, but don't have time. I would like to respond regarding 1 John 5:7. That is a spurious verse, that has been known for a long time, to have been added by trinitarians. It was not in the original.

If you have time, please answer the question I asked in post #120 about who created everything.
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
I have more I would have liked to say, but don't have time. I would like to respond regarding 1 John 5:7. That is a spurious verse, that has been known for a long time, to have been added by trinitarians. It was not in the original.

I never said 1 John 5:7 was wrong. I used it to back up my point. I assume you mean 1 Timothy 3:16? In my Christian upbringing, I've never heard that verse quoted to support the trinity. Christians only ever quote the first chapter of John, because 1 Timothy only mentions "God" in the KJV, in which is incorrect according to Strong's. The passage uses G3739 "Hos" (He) and not G2316 "Theos" (God).

If you have time, please answer the question I asked in post #120 about who created everything.

The answer to your question was addressed indirectly in post #114.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Do you want to talk about apples ...or oranges, the Trinity...or war? Because there are wars in which some, who claim to believe the Trinity, kill each other does not necessarily discount the triune nature of God...if that is truly His Nature. I don't think God is determined by what humans do or don't do. There are men who claim to believe in marriage and yet they secretly abuse their wives...does that discount marriage as a valid institution or mean because throughout history a lot of marriages have been rife with domestic abuse that marriage is therefore invalid?
Here is what I’m saying. To gain accurate knowledge of the Scriptures, we need God’s help...we can’t get it on our own. I’m sure you’ll agree. It’s God who ‘reveals’ His Word. (Luke 10:21)

Do you think He would reveal truth to those who aren’t listening / obedient?
As Jesus said @ Matthew 7, “By there fruits you will recognize them.”
Joining or supporting any endeavor to kill their brothers — even ‘enemies’ (Matthew 5:44) — is bad fruitage!

Those who have an accurate knowledge of the Scriptures, would also have God’s spirit; they would be on the “narrow way” (Matthew 7:13-14), and as best they could individually and as a group, would display the fruitage of that spirit (Galatians 5:22-23); and it wouldn’t stop at any boundary, be it racial, National, cultural, etc.; unfortunately, most religions have supported this world’s divisive agendas when they arise.

If a group, by its actions, doesn’t genuinely promote love for others, especially God (1 John 5:3), then their tenets aren’t backed by God.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I agree, but it all depends on the context of scripture. It can mean either or, but the context of plurality applies to how Elohim is used in Genesis 1 and in most cases in Paul's epistles. The Old Testament uses "the LORD God" (or "יהוה Elohim" in the ISR) to refer to Yahweh's wholeness, which is inclusive of the elohim.
The Christian Bible isn't the same as the Judaism adherence, or the way they believe the deific attributes, to be. So, when read not within judaism context, your methodology doesn't work.
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
The Christian Bible isn't the same as the Judaism adherence, or the way they believe the deific attributes, to be. So, when read not within judaism context, your methodology doesn't work.

But the thing is that the ISR is not a Jewish Bible considering it includes a New Testament. But regardless, the "Christian Bible" is still transliterated from the Hebrew and Greek, so the Bible is still the Bible. It is neither Jewish or Christian. Jews do not believe that elohim indicates plurality either.
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
Here is what I’m saying. To gain accurate knowledge of the Scriptures, we need God’s help...we can’t get it on our own. I’m sure you’ll agree. It’s God who ‘reveals’ His Word. (Luke 10:21)

Do you think He would reveal truth to those who aren’t listening / obedient?
As Jesus said @ Matthew 7, “By there fruits you will recognize them.”
Joining or supporting any endeavor to kill their brothers — even ‘enemies’ (Matthew 5:44) — is bad fruitage!

Those who have an accurate knowledge of the Scriptures, would also have God’s spirit; they would be on the “narrow way” (Matthew 7:13-14), and as best they could individually and as a group, would display the fruitage of that spirit (Galatians 5:22-23); and it wouldn’t stop at any boundary, be it racial, National, cultural, etc.; unfortunately, most religions have supported this world’s divisive agendas when they arise.

If a group, by its actions, doesn’t genuinely promote love for others, especially God (1 John 5:3), then their tenets aren’t backed by God.
Thank you for going into more depth concerning what you mean.

I do agree we need God's help to understand the scriptures, but I don't quite agree with some of your other conclusions. For one thing, I think God reveals His word to individuals, not "groups". Jonah certainly was not obedient at first, but God revealed His word to him. Then there was David who at times disobeyed God's commandments, yet God spoke to him.

From what I understand the Watchtower claims that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only religion that does not participate in war and so it is claimed that this indicates that they alone follow God's standard. This is not correct, though, because there are many other religious groups that are pacifist and do not engage in war. Another thing is that the Bible does not condemn all forms of war.

The teaching of love, even loving one's enemy, is certainly central to Christ's message, but I think sometimes displaying real love may involve followers of Jesus to stand for justice against tyrants or evildoers who are oppressing and harming others. No society or civilization can endure where people are not held accountable for their actions, where there is no justice. That is the reason God has appointed governments to protect law-abiding citizens and stand against evildoers (Romans 13:1-4). For example, governments of various countries came together to stand against Hitler, which from my perspective, was the right and loving thing to do although WW2 involved some Christians fighting against German Christians. In other situations wars may occur which are fought purely for greed, rather than helping those in need, because governments can become corrupt. So I think it is the responsibility of each Christian to seek God's guidance in any given war situation and follow the Holy Spirit's lead, rather than the dictates of a group.

Personally, I'd rather not get into a big discussion on what the Bible says about war. I don't really think this argument is much use in determining whether God is triune in nature or not.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I never said 1 John 5:7 was wrong. I used it to back up my point. I assume you mean 1 Timothy 3:16? In my Christian upbringing, I've never heard that verse quoted to support the trinity. Christians only ever quote the first chapter of John, because 1 Timothy only mentions "God" in the KJV, in which is incorrect according to Strong's. The passage uses G3739 "Hos" (He) and not G2316 "Theos" (God).

I know you didn't say 1 John 5:7 was wrong - because you used it. I was saying 1 John 5:7 is not in the original. It was added in by trinitarians.

So, who created everything?
Was it YHWH alone and by himself as it says in Isaiah 44:24 or the Messiah,as it says in Colossians 1:16?
or you could realize that it was YHWH dwelling in that body, and then it all makes sense.

Philippians 2:11 says every tongue will confess that he is YHWH.

Read Isaiah 8:13-14 and then tell me who was going to be a stone of stumbling and rock of offense to both the houses of Israel?
Then read 1 Peter 2:6-8 and tell me who it was that fulfilled this in the NT?

In Isaiah 40:3 Who was the voice in the wilderness supposed to prepare the way for?
The voice is John the Baptist in the NT. Who did he prepare the way for? Who showed up?

 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Edit.

Jesus is god by incarnation (image not seperate from source)
Trinitarian

Jesus is not god by strict definition (image is not the source)
Non-Trinitarian view

Both are correct. Just its better to worship the source than his image (Non-trinitarian view)

@Disciple of Jesus

Think you asked me if I was trinitarian (you didnt know which)

I dont agree with trinitarian views. I understand both sides above, but I see it more benefitial to worship the source not an incarnation of it.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Edit.

Jesus is god by incarnation (image not seperate from source)
Trinitarian

Jesus is not god by strict definition (image is not the source)
Non-Trinitarian view

Both are correct. Just its better to worship the source than his image (Non-trinitarian view)

@Disciple of Jesus

Think you asked me if I was trinitarian (you didnt know which)

I dont agree with trinitarian views. I understand both sides above, but I see it more benefitial to worship the source not an incarnation of it.
Trini view is that both are God. You can't separate the persons, or aspects. So, when you believe that Jesus is God, it is the same God, regardless.
Father
Son
Spirit, all God.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Trini view is that both are God. You can't separate the persons, or aspects. So, when you believe that Jesus is God, it is the same God, regardless.

Jesus also pre-exists incarnation, He does not become god, at incarnation. The trinity doesn't begin, at incarnation, in other words.

The first, I just made it brief: image same as the source

The second: The "became" is when the word (law of moses) became flesh (salvation incarnated). You cant become something else if you were already the thing you become.

Its going off of Hebrews and other verses. A jew years ago on RF explained why "us" (genesis) is used in the hebrew language. The references were hebrew tanslation problems to english. They dont talk much to christians on RF. Probably @Rival can explain it, if I got the right person. I honestly dont know if they used "us" to refer to two in christian scriptures. (Past the torah)

Trinity idea begins after salvation (remember-biblically speaking not theology of what people said about this or that)

The (holy spirit) came god through jesus. In the torah, god acted directly with believers not through another agent.

Jesus was a human in the gospels. After that, they started treating jesus as if he were god himself. Jesus taught against that. I guess they forgot after he died.

The creator has always been throughout the bible.

The quote on quote "split" is where the begining of the trinity concept. Before that, god was god, jesus was jesus, and spirit was spirit (dont know if there was one until jesus died)

It doesnt explicitly state jesus was with god beforehand. (Genesis) That would have definitely be in in the Torah and understood as such, in one word or another.

Even if you don't believe that Jesus pre-exists incarnation, He is still God, as the text clearly shows.
The creator isnt the savior and the savior isnt the spirit of the savior but of the creator

Using these words only: creator, savior, and spirit, how are they the same if they are all "god"?

Where in scripture does it show they didnt have a relationship with each other (two-became-one) rather than singularity (I am one)?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The first, I just made it brief: image same as the source

The second: The "became" is when the word (law of moses) became flesh (salvation incarnated). You cant become something else if you were already the thing you become.

Became, actually infers, pre-existence, this context.
John 1:1
The word became,
This means that the Word, pre-exists, and became Jesus, via incarnation.



Jesus was a human in the gospels. After that, they started treating jesus as if he were god himself. Jesus taught against that. I guess they forgot after he died.
No , Jesus was worshipped even in the Gospels.
Matthew 2:2
Colossians 3:17
'God, and the Father by Him'
That is about as clear, as it gets.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Please dont color and bold unless its absolutelt necessary
Became, actually infers, pre-existence, this context.
John 1:1
The word became,
The means that the Word, pre-exists, and became Jesus, via incarnation.

The Word is the Law of Moses.

It came from the creator

The Word/the law of salvation of the creators chosen people

became incarnated to flesh, the savior.

The creators Law was incarnated to Flesh; and, the creators Word/Flesh became salvation aka THE Word made flesh that could then "dwelt among the people."

The Word of the creator is not a person. Its salvation.

Salvation existed in both old and new testement. Christ did not.

The Word always existed
The incarnation has not
(The incarnation was born from a human and his message from god is eternal)

My point:

Trinitarians cannot tell the difference
Non-trinitarians can tell the difference
It doesnt matter either. They still worship the creator

I dont know about modalism (cant think of the spelling)

No , Jesus was worshipped even in the Gospels.
Matthew 2:2
Colossians 3:17

I believe you. Im not christian so Im challenging the logic of your statements not the spiritual validity of them.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Trinity idea begins after salvation (remember-biblically speaking not theology of what people said about this or that)

I'm personally only interested, in a few books, in the Bible. I'm presenting arguments based on the text, that you are using...so, that is an incorrect statement.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'm personally only interested, in a few books, in the Bible. I'm presenting arguments based on the text, that you are using...so, that is an incorrect statement.

I can quote. I dont think its deep just common sense reading and english. If my mother had a message for me (I love you) and she gave it to my sister, thats fine. When my sisted died before me (fiction), she gave me our mothers word: I love you.

Those words cannot be seperated from the person who said it. So I believe my sisters spoke the words of our mother. Because my mother, her word, and her daughter are one in purpose.

So, when I hear I love you from my sister, I also hear it from my mother as well.

Thats trinitarian views.

Nontrinitarian is more

Mother said I love you
Sister relayed the beautiful message
I thank my sister for giving me the message
But Im more focused on who said it not who sent it

Im focused only and only the mother and her love only.

Thats non-trinitarian

Its not specific to scripture. I can post scripture quotes but having not read the full bible, Id like you to see the logic in the two views.

As for what other people say, I hear jesus is god all the time. I never understood it until I became catholic. But not everyone gets jesus' message of love and grace in The Church. Probably politics since church is not a place but a body of people. Same as the word Mass as well as the role role of communion.

Im not really metaphysical so if it doesnt make sense, I wont get the spiritual meaning behind it.
 
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