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Featured The Trinity in Luke 2:40-56

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by rrobs, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I'm not JW, but maybe I can answer your question. Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalms 45:6. It is prophetic, speaking of the future when Jesus returns again and sets up the promised kingdom. He will be the king and thus sit on the throne. Why was he called god in this verse?

    To answer that question you need to understand what the Jew of 3,000 years ago meant by the word "god." It was not the same as we think of. The upshot is that the word "god" was applied to anybody with high authority. As such it was not unusual to apply the word "god" to the king. Don't take my word for it. Do your own research. I'm confident that if you do so with an open mind you will understand what I'm saying. It should be no surprise that the meaning of many words change with time and culture. The word god is a perfect example.
     
  2. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 44 is a bleak psalm of persecution followed by a wedding

    InterestinglyPsalm 45 is a Psalm about a Jewish King marrying a gentile bride
    and Psalm 46 following is the women chorus answering ... suitable to a wedding

    and why not? it points to the marriage supper of the lamb


    I also draw your attention to Ezekiel where God says many times he will be shepherd over Israel
    and finally says he will set 'David' as shepherd over Israel... that works if somehow Jesus is God and David's descendent
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Surely you are not interpreting that to contradict what Jesus, and the holy spirit taught. Just read the entire chapter, and see that it agrees with the correct conclusion Peter arrived at, through holy spirit.

    John 14 King James Version (KJV)
    1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

    2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

    5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

    14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

    28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

    30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

    31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

    There is nothing here that suggests anything different to what you agreed to earlier - Jesus is the son of God.
    He further teaches that he is not equal to God - his father who sent him.

    This is what the spirit of God teaches those who listen to what the spirit says.
    We only find difficulty when we don't accept this truth.
    Remember, the scriptures warn that there will be false teachers, so we need to stick with what Jesus taught, and not be led astray.

    The Trinity was never taught in the time of Jesus and his apostles.
    So tell me. If you agree that Jesus taught that he is God's son, and not equal to God, what reason would you have to believe otherwise... unless it is because those who teach otherwise have been able to seduce you?
     
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  4. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    The reason that won't work, is because Jesus was not divine - no text says that. The logos was.

    It could work this way though.
    If you insert the definite article where it was in the original text, and capitalize all the letters as it was originally, that could work.
    John 1:1
    IN THE BEGINNING, THE WORD WAS, AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

    That works fine, because the logos, or word is a divine being, that became flesh/mortal/human.
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    That's right. Colossians 1:13-15
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    You are saying that it is possible for God to become Satan?

    Of course, Jesus came to show what God is like, that's why he said what he did. He never said he is God... or can you show a verse where he did?

    Would you mind explaining what you mean by this?


    No. Now you are assuming.
    If Jesus did not say he is God. Is is wrong for us to assume such, especially when the teaching came from people that had no authority from God, nor were inspired by him.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Sounds cruel. Why would they do such a thing? Did Allah tell them to behead disbelievers of Islam? Now you've got me scared to go Palestine and preach. :(
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Did you just say God the Almighty needed to become a human being?
    Who raised God the Almighty from the dead?
    Who did God the Almighty sit on the right hand of, after being raised up?
    Who gave God the Almighty the holy spirit?
    Acts 2:32, 33

    Remember now, God Almighty died on the cross, according to you.
     
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  9. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Pleasing God is my goal. I never tried to be Molly Mormon.
     
  10. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    That is a sound concern. You do realize that many/most of those who follow God's will die doing that.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Who is being addressed at Psalm 45:6, and who does Elohim refer to there?
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Because discussions that just go around in circles don't interest me. I could argue that God could be Satan because "with God, nothing is impossible." Do you believe God could be Satan?
     
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  13. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Please stop. Why are you doing this to me? [​IMG]
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Then why does He address His Son as "God"? The Son is not the Father's God; rather, the Father is the Son's God. But Jesus said (in John 15:16), "All things that the Father hath are mine." That would certainly include the title by which He is known.

    Now I'm not a Trinitarian by any means, but Jesus Christ said that He and His Father were "one," too. You've either got to simply ignore those verses that appear to contradict each other or you've got to try to reconcile them, which often involves recognizing that words (such as "one") can be understood differently depending upon the context.
     
    #134 Katzpur, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  15. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Exodus 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Believe it or not. I am really up to here with people who try to explain things away. There are people who try to explain Matt 5 away. Or how about Matt 19:12, or even Isaiah 56:4-5? You think the Bible is like a fruit stand, where you can just pick and choose? SERIOUSLY ???

    And the idea that Moses was speaking to an Angel? WHAT ? If you don't believe the Bible then you may as well just burn it on a cold winter night in a fireplace.

    So, what do you think Ezekiel saw, or was he just sitting in the shade smoking Hash? Or what do you think happened when Jesus was suddenly in a room with the disciples? And what about his escape from the crowd that wanted to beat him up?

    The Bible is full of inexplicable things, deal with it.

    This makes me almost as upset as when a certain group of people use their unholy escape clause; "The Bible is correct, in as much as it is translated correctly".
     
  16. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    To me that is just nutty on so many levels. But, go on with your selective reasoning as you wish.
     
  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I hope you realize that not everyone who does his own research with an open mind will necessarily come to the same conclusion you have.
     
  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I hear ya on that. How could any scripture be any more straightforward?

    True. So is every religion's sacred scriptures.

    But didn't you just get through saying, "The Bible is full of inexplicable things"? If this is the case, then why be so upset by the statement that it's correct inasmuch as it is translated corrected? Perhaps a perfect translation -- which we don't have for the simple reason that human beings have always been involved in its compilation, transcription, translation and interpretation -- would not be full of inexplicable things. Unless the Bible can be proven to be perfect, and not containing any inexplicable things, it makes sense to believe that it is correct inasmuch as it is translated correctly.
     
    #138 Katzpur, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm confused about what you are saying. You're saying that the logos was divine but that Jesus was not. But if the logos become flesh/mortal/human, then by what name was the logos known when in this state?
     
  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    No, because that contradicts God's nature. God cannot be evil. But note carefully that according to the scriptures Jesus was without sin. So being Jesus does not contradict God's nature.
     
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