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The Trinity in Luke 2:40-56

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I'm just curious how the JW's Bible translates Hebrews 1:8, which in the KJV states, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
I'm not JW, but maybe I can answer your question. Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalms 45:6. It is prophetic, speaking of the future when Jesus returns again and sets up the promised kingdom. He will be the king and thus sit on the throne. Why was he called god in this verse?

To answer that question you need to understand what the Jew of 3,000 years ago meant by the word "god." It was not the same as we think of. The upshot is that the word "god" was applied to anybody with high authority. As such it was not unusual to apply the word "god" to the king. Don't take my word for it. Do your own research. I'm confident that if you do so with an open mind you will understand what I'm saying. It should be no surprise that the meaning of many words change with time and culture. The word god is a perfect example.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
I'm not JW, but maybe I can answer your question. Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalms 45:6. It is prophetic, speaking of the future when Jesus returns again and sets up the promised kingdom. He will be the king and thus sit on the throne. Why was he called god in this verse?

To answer that question you need to understand what the Jew of 3,000 years ago meant by the word "god." It was not the same as we think of. The upshot is that the word "god" was applied to anybody with high authority. As such it was not unusual to apply the word "god" to the king. Don't take my word for it. Do your own research. I'm confident that if you do so with an open mind you will understand what I'm saying. It should be no surprise that the meaning of many words change with time and culture. The word god is a perfect example.

Psalm 44 is a bleak psalm of persecution followed by a wedding

InterestinglyPsalm 45 is a Psalm about a Jewish King marrying a gentile bride
and Psalm 46 following is the women chorus answering ... suitable to a wedding

and why not? it points to the marriage supper of the lamb


I also draw your attention to Ezekiel where God says many times he will be shepherd over Israel
and finally says he will set 'David' as shepherd over Israel... that works if somehow Jesus is God and David's descendent
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Of course it's not wrong. However, this also is not wrong:

John 14:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Surely you are not interpreting that to contradict what Jesus, and the holy spirit taught. Just read the entire chapter, and see that it agrees with the correct conclusion Peter arrived at, through holy spirit.

John 14 King James Version (KJV)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

There is nothing here that suggests anything different to what you agreed to earlier - Jesus is the son of God.
He further teaches that he is not equal to God - his father who sent him.

This is what the spirit of God teaches those who listen to what the spirit says.
We only find difficulty when we don't accept this truth.
Remember, the scriptures warn that there will be false teachers, so we need to stick with what Jesus taught, and not be led astray.

The Trinity was never taught in the time of Jesus and his apostles.
So tell me. If you agree that Jesus taught that he is God's son, and not equal to God, what reason would you have to believe otherwise... unless it is because those who teach otherwise have been able to seduce you?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
How about translating John 1:1 like this? In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God. It says later that "the Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us. Isn't that Jesus?
The reason that won't work, is because Jesus was not divine - no text says that. The logos was.

It could work this way though.
If you insert the definite article where it was in the original text, and capitalize all the letters as it was originally, that could work.
John 1:1
IN THE BEGINNING, THE WORD WAS, AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

That works fine, because the logos, or word is a divine being, that became flesh/mortal/human.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Jesus always did his father's will. As such he was the express image of his father, but that doesn't make him God. He is the son of God. There is no way a son can be his own father.
That's right. Colossians 1:13-15
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You are saying that there is no way God cannot do it? You may want to check these verses. (Jeremiah 32:27, Luke 1:37)
You are saying that it is possible for God to become Satan?

And yes, Jesus did always do His Father's will. However, that doesn't mean He could rightfully say "Have I been so long with you and yet you do not know me Phillip?"
Of course, Jesus came to show what God is like, that's why he said what he did. He never said he is God... or can you show a verse where he did?

That is not the right thing to do; assuming that Jesus is not God. Jesus should have given the glory to God in that case. (Isaiah 48:11)
Would you mind explaining what you mean by this?


So, since He said this "Have I been so long with you etc." therefore logically He is claiming to be God.
No. Now you are assuming.
If Jesus did not say he is God. Is is wrong for us to assume such, especially when the teaching came from people that had no authority from God, nor were inspired by him.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I'm going to try to be peaceful in allowing others to have another view. Muslims and Jews hold a similar view in that they do not believe that God has a form, and does not procreate, or he could not be a GOD. In Islam, to hold to the view that Jesus is the Son of God, is called Shirk, and some Muslims will cut your head off for that.
Sounds cruel. Why would they do such a thing? Did Allah tell them to behead disbelievers of Islam? Now you've got me scared to go Palestine and preach. :(
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Well for that matter why would Jesus want to be human at all? NO matter who Jesus is why did Jesus need to become human?

The answer is kind of obvious if you look to the scriptures. Jesus needed to become human because that was the way He would save the humans. He came to save the humans specifically. He didn't come to save frogs or dogs. He didn't come to save angels or demons. He came to save humans. His mission was very specific.

So in conclusion that is why God the Almighty needed to become a human being. This is why God says that He blots out transgressions for His own sake (Isaiah 43:25) and yet in Ephesians 4:32 we find that God blots out transgressions for Christ's sake. God came in the form of a man to blot out our transgressions.

I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. (Isaiah 43:25)

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:32)
Did you just say God the Almighty needed to become a human being?
Who raised God the Almighty from the dead?
Who did God the Almighty sit on the right hand of, after being raised up?
Who gave God the Almighty the holy spirit?
Acts 2:32, 33

Remember now, God Almighty died on the cross, according to you.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
God can't be anything He wants to be. He is limited by His word, the scriptures. They say God is love (1 John 4:8). Therefore He can't not be love, even if He wanted to. Once He says something He will always follow through with it. He can not deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13).

Maybe you did something else that ticked them off. :)


Pleasing God is my goal. I never tried to be Molly Mormon.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Sounds cruel. Why would they do such a thing? Did Allah tell them to behead disbelievers of Islam? Now you've got me scared to go Palestine and preach. :(


That is a sound concern. You do realize that many/most of those who follow God's will die doing that.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Hebrew 1:8


Hebrews 1:8 is from Psalm 45 the marriage of a Jewish king to a gentile bride pointing to Jesus and the church

Psalm 45
6 fYour throne, O God, is forever and ever.

The gscepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;

It's a bit like 'the Lord said to my Lord' in Psalm 110 which also portends Jesus
Who is being addressed at Psalm 45:6, and who does Elohim refer to there?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
That is a sound concern. You do realize that many/most of those who follow God's will die doing that.
Please stop. Why are you doing this to me?
animated-smileys-sad-163.gif
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Deut 6:4,

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Just leave it at that without going into man's wisdom. God is not two different individuals with the same title. As Deuteronomy says, He is one.
Then why does He address His Son as "God"? The Son is not the Father's God; rather, the Father is the Son's God. But Jesus said (in John 15:16), "All things that the Father hath are mine." That would certainly include the title by which He is known.

Now I'm not a Trinitarian by any means, but Jesus Christ said that He and His Father were "one," too. You've either got to simply ignore those verses that appear to contradict each other or you've got to try to reconcile them, which often involves recognizing that words (such as "one") can be understood differently depending upon the context.
 
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Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
sign0153.gif


Tell me what I am supposed to see in Exodus? The incidents where God speaks to Moses are through an angel. God has never "stood and talked to anyone" for a very good reason.....

Moses once asked.....
“Please show me your glory.” 19 But he said: “I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah;+ and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.” 20 But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

21 Jehovah said further: “Here is a place near me. Station yourself on the rock. 22 When my glory is passing by, I will place you in a crevice of the rock, and I will shield you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 After that I will take my hand away, and you will see my back. But my face may not be seen.”
(Exodus 33:18-23)

Perhaps you missed that bit? :D


Exodus 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Believe it or not. I am really up to here with people who try to explain things away. There are people who try to explain Matt 5 away. Or how about Matt 19:12, or even Isaiah 56:4-5? You think the Bible is like a fruit stand, where you can just pick and choose? SERIOUSLY ???

And the idea that Moses was speaking to an Angel? WHAT ? If you don't believe the Bible then you may as well just burn it on a cold winter night in a fireplace.

So, what do you think Ezekiel saw, or was he just sitting in the shade smoking Hash? Or what do you think happened when Jesus was suddenly in a room with the disciples? And what about his escape from the crowd that wanted to beat him up?

The Bible is full of inexplicable things, deal with it.

This makes me almost as upset as when a certain group of people use their unholy escape clause; "The Bible is correct, in as much as it is translated correctly".
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Deut 6:4,

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Just leave it at that without going into man's wisdom. God is not two different individuals with the same title. As Deuteronomy says, He is one.


To me that is just nutty on so many levels. But, go on with your selective reasoning as you wish.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Don't take my word for it. Do your own research. I'm confident that if you do so with an open mind you will understand what I'm saying. It should be no surprise that the meaning of many words change with time and culture. The word god is a perfect example.
I hope you realize that not everyone who does his own research with an open mind will necessarily come to the same conclusion you have.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Exodus 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Believe it or not. I am really up to here with people who try to explain things away.
I hear ya on that. How could any scripture be any more straightforward?

The Bible is full of inexplicable things, deal with it.
True. So is every religion's sacred scriptures.

This makes me almost as upset as when a certain group of people use their unholy escape clause; "The Bible is correct, in as much as it is translated correctly".
But didn't you just get through saying, "The Bible is full of inexplicable things"? If this is the case, then why be so upset by the statement that it's correct inasmuch as it is translated corrected? Perhaps a perfect translation -- which we don't have for the simple reason that human beings have always been involved in its compilation, transcription, translation and interpretation -- would not be full of inexplicable things. Unless the Bible can be proven to be perfect, and not containing any inexplicable things, it makes sense to believe that it is correct inasmuch as it is translated correctly.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The reason that won't work, is because Jesus was not divine - no text says that. The logos was.

That works fine, because the logos, or word is a divine being, that became flesh/mortal/human.
I'm confused about what you are saying. You're saying that the logos was divine but that Jesus was not. But if the logos become flesh/mortal/human, then by what name was the logos known when in this state?
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Because discussions that just go around in circles don't interest me. I could argue that God could be Satan because "with God, nothing is impossible." Do you believe God could be Satan?
No, because that contradicts God's nature. God cannot be evil. But note carefully that according to the scriptures Jesus was without sin. So being Jesus does not contradict God's nature.
 
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