The trimurthi 'myth'

[Vinayaka]

For a Westerner with an Abrahamic background, the idea of Devi, the idea that there could be genuine self-confident goddesses, sometimes even bearing weapons is so totally eerie that I suppose for most, a leading trio of three male gods is much more reassuring, especially if they can call them an analogy to the Christian trinity for the sake of convenience.

I can only admit from my own experience that I struggled with the concept of "independent" Hindu goddesses a lot. IMHO, it's where Hinduism differs the most from Christianity.

How did you first encounter Hinduism? Can you remember a time when you believed in the Trimurthi as a relatively common concept, or did you encounter it at all?
Personally, I only learned about it much later, and was struck by its preponderance.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So why is it relatively common today, in your view? What factors kept it so alive? Here's a link, as an example.
Hinduism and Christianity: Monotheistic Paths to One God.... | Bartleby
Do you think it's entirely a myth perpetrated buy interfaith 'scholars' looking for something in common, or did Hindus themselves bring it down through the centuries?

IMHO, Trimurthy and Brahman are two separate ideas with different origins. Tri-murthy (Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh, i.e., Shiva) or Dvi-murthy (Harihara, Vishnu and Shiva) were attempt to mollify people who had different chosen deities.

Brahman is the result of a completely different inquiry. Were there many things to start with? No that will be more difficult to explain. So in the beginning there was existence of just one entity - Brahman, and all things derived from it. Like, before inflation, there was energy only, a small ball with extremely high temperature and pressure. That was a philosophical exercise. As you know it is not necessary to consider Brahman as a God.

Christian evangelists can say anything to present their point. I do not think discussing what they think is relevant.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As I said, misconceptions.

Then why did they want to escape being labeled as 'unorthodox' philosophical system? Why was there no fight between Hindus and Buddhists. How come that they existed peacefully together from 500 BC to 13th Century when Nalanda was destroyed by Muslim invaders. Why all through that period of history Hindu kings continued supporting Buddhist seminaries and institutions when Buddhism was no longer a major religion in India? Why was Buddha accepted as the ninth and the latest avatara of Lord Vishnu?

It is not a misconception. Abrahamic religions have always fought among each other, even Catholics and protestants, Sunnis and Shias. The Indian religions are different. We respect each other. Many Jains worship Lord Shiva, Mother Goddess or Krishna. Millions of Hindus, millions, follow Sri Guru Nanak.

 

[Martin]

I concur, in this case. But also there are times when two views are presented, and each side insists the other side has a misconception, when a better understanding would be 'different understandings'. An example of that would be on the nature of God. A staunch monist and a staunch dualist wouldn't help their side much by tossing out the 'misconception' arrow.

In the case of Buddhism being a separate religion, it's probably 99% of people who think it is, and only a rare few who hold onto the idea that it isn't.

I've never come across a Buddhist who thinks that Buddhism is a school of Hinduism, or that there is really no difference between the two traditions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I can only admit from my own experience that I struggled with the concept of "independent" Hindu goddesses a lot. IMHO, it's where Hinduism differs the most from Christianity.

It is only Kali who can put her feet on Shiva's chest.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I've never come across a Buddhist who thinks that Buddhism is a school of Hinduism, or that there is really no difference between the two traditions.

Many do not understand their own religion or balk at accepting similarities. Mahayana is a later development of Buddhism. Surely, Buddhism did influence Hinduism, especially Advaita philosophy.

 

[Sirona]

How did you first encounter Hinduism? Can you remember a time when you believed in the Trimurthi as a relatively common concept, or did you encounter it at all?
Personally, I only learned about it much later, and was struck by its preponderance.

You have to consider two things, (1) I have a Catholic background with Mary putting up with everything and (2) I grew up in Communist East Germany where promotion of any kind of religion was officially forbidden, so my only source of information were encyclopedias. For example, it was only possible to bump into a Krishna book canvasser after the fall of Communism had begun. However, it‘s interesting that the Communist state promoted the teaching of even the most exotic mythologies in order to denigrate Christians, by "demonstrating" that their religion is just a made-up story, not different from the other "fabricated stories". For example, I read about Mongolian mythology as a kid, and a summary of the Ramayana was in the official school curriculum for elementary school. Of course, leaving out that Rama is a God, so I just couldn‘t figure out what made this story so special, as it seemed to be yet another version of "prince saves damsel in distress from monster", not much different from all the other stories "of the similar kind".

I can‘t claim that I know a lot about Indian-British colonial relationship, but I think in the mid 19th century, studying the stories of Hinduism became fashionable for British and other scientists. I think the British considered Hinduism from their Protestant view, so I suppose this is one reason why the Hindu trimurti became so wide-spread in academic circles.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Could you, please?

Yeah, sure. The story is in RigVeda and in Taittiriya Aranyaka, Brahmana, etc. Before 2,250 BCE, the sun rose on the day of vernal equinox at the place where IE lived in the asterism of Orion (Mrigashiras, the antelope). That was the beginning of IE New Year. But around 2,250 BC, the IE saw that the sun was rising before it came to Orion. It was titling towards Aldebaran (Rohini). That meant that the seasons will change, the year will have to be started earlier, the calendar of Yajnas also will have to be changed. They thought Orion, Prajapati, had an incestous inclination. Rohini was considered the daughter of Prajapati. That was greatly disliked by men and Gods. It infuriated Rudra so much that he pierced the head of Prajapati with an arrow. The IE then chose Pleiades to be the first asterism of the year. Of course, all this was caused by precession of equinox. They would change the asterism again in 600 AD and further adjust their civil and ritual calendar.

"It is usually derived from the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root rud- (related to English rude), which means 'to cry, howl'." "An alternative etymology suggested by Prof. Pischel interprets Rudra as the 'red one', the 'brilliant one', possibly derived from a lost root rud-, 'red' or 'ruddy', or alternatively, according to Grassman, 'shining'." "Mallory and Adams also mention a comparison with the Old Russian deity Rŭglŭ to reconstruct a Proto-Indo-European wild-god named *Rudlos, though they remind that the issue of the etymology remains problematic: from PIE *reud- ('rend, tear apart'; cf. Latin rullus, 'rustic'), or *reu- ('howl')." Rudra - Wikipedia
Rudra is mentioned in RigVeda as being Babhru, Brown colored/haired. Ruda is the father of Maruts, roughly wind Gods. Aup. adds: Rodeo.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I've never come across a Buddhist who thinks that Buddhism is a school of Hinduism, or that there is really no difference between the two traditions.

Those who think that way are welcome to debate with me.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Those who think that way are welcome to debate with me.

Not in this forum they aren’t.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, of course, Sir. They can come to the "General Religious Debates" forum.

I may mention in reference to #28 in this topic that the image of Rudra is not anyway near to his concept in RigVeda. Read here about Rudra and his sons, the Marutas at A Vedic Reader (Excerpts)