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The term 'Anti-Semite'...

Smoke

Done here.
jewscout said:
however by trying to redefine the term simply to keep people from "being offended" it is handing over another tool for those who use such misdirection to continue anti-jewish hatred.
Well, the term anti-Semite was first used in 19th-century Europe, when the only Semites a European Christian was likely to have any contact with were Jews. I don't know whether it makes sense to refer to Arabs who hate Jews, but are Semites themselves, as anti-Semites.

I don't see how more specific terminology would give another tool to those who use misdirection; on the contrary, that's just what we do when we insist on using using the term anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitic? No, no; I'm not anti-Semitic. How can I be anti-Semitic, when I'm a Semite myself? Using a more specific term would eliminate that dodge.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
jewscout said:
because that has been the definition of the term since it was first used.

You should add to that, in europe solely.

or that muslims who do hate jews like to cloud the issue w/ semantics, diverting attention to the fact that their evidence comes from classic anti-jewish propaganda lies.

I can understand why Christians might hate jewish whether in the past or nowadays but what i don't understand is that why you think Muslims will hate jews just because they are jews?

Jews have been living amongest us for ages in peace.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
MidnightBlue said:
Anti-Semitic? No, no; I'm not anti-Semitic. How can I be anti-Semitic, when I'm a Semite myself? Using a more specific term would eliminate that dodge.

I agree with you.

Frubals. :)
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Jay said:
The rejection of the historical meaning of "antisemitism" reflects an agenda.

I agree, but if the Muslims really do object to the term (and besides, it's quite possible to talk of Muslim anti-Semitism as very many Muslims aren't Semites at all), we could always use the equally old, but German, Judenhass. Muslims certainly could never complain that it was impossible for them to be guilty of that.

James
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
JamesThePersian said:
I agree, but if the Muslims really do object to the term (and besides, it's quite possible to talk of Muslim anti-Semitism as very many Muslims aren't Semites at all), we could always use the equally old, but German, Judenhass. Muslims certainly could never complain that it was impossible for them to be guilty of that.

James
Yes, we could always capitulate to the agenda of those Muslims who "really do object to the term". We could. I won't.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Jay said:
Yes, we could always capitulate to the agenda of those Muslims who "really do object to the term". We could. I won't.

Nor will I. I was being flippant. Just wondered if the Muslim objectors to the term anti-Semite here would prefer it if we referred to Muslim Judenhass, that's all. Can't imagine it somehow. Oh, how frequently I wish tone of voice could come across in these posts.

James
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
JamesThePersian said:
... I wish tone of voice could come across in these posts.
As do I. I have absolutely no doubt as to your stand on antisemitism and appeasement, much as I have no doubt as to the thoughtfullness and integrity of your religious beliefs.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
The Truth said:
You should add to that, in europe solely.
it's origins are in Europe, granted, but it doesn't mean that the historical context should be ignored, nor should every word have it's definition changed simply because it enters into a new region of the world.

I can understand why Christians might hate jewish whether in the past or nowadays

yeah it's called indoctrination and brainwashing


but what i don't understand is that why you think Muslims will hate jews just because they are jews?

yeah it's called indoctrination and brainwashing

Jews have been living amongest us for ages in peace.

unless a muslim ruler comes along that has a bone to pick w/ the Jews...then it's no different than Tzarist russia...i hate to break it to you The Truth but muslims are people and are capable of doing both good and bad things regardless of what the Quran says...history has shown that Jewish-Muslim relations have not always been this interfaith-utopia dream that you continue to push

take off the rose-colored glasses
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
jewscout said:
it's origins are in Europe, granted, but it doesn't mean that the historical context should be ignored, nor should every word have it's definition changed simply because it enters into a new region of the world.

It's clear as a sun. The jews were simply called semites because there were no real existance for other semites (rather than jews) overthere or at least they didn't show up to talk about it.

yeah it's called indoctrination and brainwashing

yeah it's called indoctrination and brainwashing

are you accusing now the Christians and Muslims of hating jews JUST because they are jews?

Any specific reason???

Oh ya, maybe they envy the jews because they are the chosen people? :D

i hate to break it to you The Truth but muslims are people and are capable of doing both good and bad things regardless of what the Quran says...history has shown that Jewish-Muslim relations have not always been this interfaith-utopia dream that you continue to push

I agree with you, but you didn't get what i'm trying to say. Is it just because they were jews or because they were non-muslims in general for instance?

Why are you trying to push the argument from one side?

Problems happen because of specific conflicts but to say they hate them just because they are jews is so clearly, ridiculous.

Until now i see no reason why a muslim would hate a jew? What for? :confused:

take off the rose-colored glasses

Ha?:sheep:
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The Truth said:
are you accusing now the Christians and Muslims of hating jews JUST because they are jews?
Implicit here is the claim that the hatred, pogroms, and genocide were not the fruits of antisemitic bigotry, but were somehow justified.
 

AbuQuteiba

Active Member
As an Arab Muslim, I do agree that one cannot be a semite, and be an anti-semite at the same time. I, of course, do not deny that the definition of a semite is:1.a member of any of various ancient and modern peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including the Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs.

Hence, an arab muslim as a semite, cannot be an anti-semite.

I Also know, that this is how the english language has evolved. So it does'nt really matter. Today, when you say that a person is an anti-semite, it means he is anti-jewish. And I, for one, have no problem with that.

What does bother me though (and this btw, might be off topic, because it seems this thread talks mostly about the terminology of the word/s "anti-semitism"), is that in the western world, and Europe for that matter, a person can almost be an ant-whatever he wants and get away with it. For instance, many people in the western world, and in Europe, are anti-Islamists. They fight Islam, write books on how Islam=terrorism, they call the our Prophet (PBUH) and his companions terrorists etc. (and they do this out in the open). So they are virtually, anti-islamists by every meaning of the word. Yet all of these acts, are considered part of "freedom of speech". And all of what this person has said, or done, towards Islam or muslims, has no effect on this persons life. These people are not dealt with in any way, and are probably encouraged in some parts of the world.

Then we come to anti-semites, anti-jews. In the western world, and Europe, it is prohibited for one to be an anti-semite. In other words its a crime for one to be anti-jewish. Not only can this person be persectued and improsined by the government, his reputation goes down the drain, and his career is probably over. Furthermore, his life is virtually over, once this gets out (and i'm not saying this is if it was some made up fairytale, this HAS happened before). Now, what kind of injustice is this? Where are these nations who claim to be part of this so called "freedom of speech"? Why is it such a crime for a person to be anti-jewish, but not anti-muslim? And this does'nt go for those who are solely anti-jewish , just for the sake of it i mean, but for people who for instance doubt the holocaust, or say that it has been blown way out of proportion. Or even for people who do not agree that the state of Israel has the right to exist. These people are condemned by both the government and society. This is what I hate about the word anti-semitism TODAY.

By writing this i am not saying that Islam teaches us to hate Jews, or make them our enemies, merely because they are Jews (or anybody esle for that matter). Nor do i justify the beliefs or acts of Muslims who do so. But this is the injustice i see happening before me.

(I apologize if i have gone off topic. If any of the RF's moderators think that this post is irrelevant to the topic, or that it might start a debate, i will gladly move it to a new thread on anti-semitism in the general debates section-please don't erase the post until you let me know though). Thank you.
 

d.

_______
champion said:
a person can almost be an ant-whatever he wants and get away with it.
nope. here's an example :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ake_Green

champion said:
And this does'nt go for those who are solely anti-jewish , just for the sake of it i mean, but for people who for instance doubt the holocaust, or say that it has been blown way out of proportion. Or even for people who do not agree that the state of Israel has the right to exist.

although it is illegal to deny the holocaust in germany, i have never heard of it being illegal to oppose the right for israel to exist anywhere. if you have an example of this, please give it.
 

d.

_______
champion said:
Why is it such a crime for a person to be anti-jewish, but not anti-muslim?
another case : on may 25th, 2004, swedish nazi leader björn björkqvist was sentenced to two months in prison for writing "I don’t think I am alone in feeling sick when reading about how Swedish girls are raped by immigrant (in context, he's talking about arabs) hordes."
 

AbuQuteiba

Active Member
divine said:
nope. here's an example :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ake_Green



although it is illegal to deny the holocaust in germany, i have never heard of it being illegal to oppose the right for israel to exist anywhere. if you have an example of this, please give it.

Thats why I said almost. Also, it seems from the case you've shown, that Sweden is'nt a country that stands up for the same "freedom of speech" that the U.S. does. I guess they have certain boundaries. Yet the question arises, would they do the same to a person who was anti-islamic? Or even anti-semetic for that matter?

No, i'm sorry. I don't know if there's a country or state that exists which prohibits the opposition for the right of Israel to exist. Yet, I know for certain that those who are against it, are in fact considered anti-semites. Also, there is no law in the United States, to my knowledge, that prohibits one from denying the holocaust, or one that prohibits someone from saying that it was blown out of proportion. But there have been cases where a people have denied some of the things said about the holocaust (like the number of deaths), in the U.S., and these people's reputations, and career's have been destroyed.
 

AbuQuteiba

Active Member
divine said:
another case : on may 25th, 2004, swedish nazi leader björn björkqvist was sentenced to two months in prison for writing "I don’t think I am alone in feeling sick when reading about how Swedish girls are raped by immigrant (in context, he's talking about arabs) hordes."

Again, it seems Sweden does not call for the same "freedom of speech" America does. My bad. I should'nt have generalized and said Europe. I think i'de like to see this persons whole article, if you have it. I don't know why he would get locked up for saying that it sickens him when swedish girls are raped by Arabs. Did he mean that it sickens him when Arab immigrants sleep with Swedish girls? Or did he literally mean rape?
 

evearael

Well-Known Member
Champion, regardless of what terms you use, hatred towards Jews exists and it must end. By the same token, hatred towards Muslims exists and it must end. I am appalled by senseless hate directed at any ethnicity, creed and so on, simply because of their identity.

The historical meaning of the word antisemite is clear and I see no valid reason for revision. There are quite a few words that are not 100% true to the roots in the English language. It is part of what makes it such a difficult language for many to learn.
 

d.

_______
champion said:
Again, it seems Sweden does not call for the same "freedom of speech" America does. My bad. I should'nt have generalized and said Europe. I think i'de like to see this persons whole article, if you have it. I don't know why he would get locked up for saying that it sickens him when swedish girls are raped by Arabs. Did he mean that it sickens him when Arab immigrants sleep with Swedish girls? Or did he literally mean rape?


i cannot find the article in english, sorry.

in context, he's not condemning rape as such. he's saying that arabs come to sweden in hordes to, among other things, rape swedish women. and yes, he's a nazi, so he's of the opinion that 'mixed' relations are sickening.

there is probably much to debate about sweden's hate speech laws, but perhaps that is the topic for a different thread. :) but concerning the topic at hand, i have no problem with germany's law against denying the holocaust, considering their history.

i'm reminded of a noam chomsky quote that i can't remember literally but goes something along the lines of 'to deny the holocaust is to lose one's humanity'. i completely agree. IMO, it's one of the most disgusting opinions one can hold.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Jay said:
Implicit here is the claim that the hatred, pogroms, and genocide were not the fruits of antisemitic bigotry, but were somehow justified.

i agree,
The Truth, your claims seem to exist soley on the basis that whatever has happened ot the jews, the jews must have deserved.

but back on topic...
 

AbuQuteiba

Active Member
evearael said:
Champion, regardless of what terms you use, hatred towards Jews exists and it must end. By the same token, hatred towards Muslims exists and it must end. I am appalled by senseless hate directed at any ethnicity, creed and so on, simply because of their identity.

The historical meaning of the word antisemite is clear and I see no valid reason for revision. There are quite a few words that are not 100% true to the roots in the English language. It is part of what makes it such a difficult language for many to learn.

In my post i clearly stated that i have no problem with the word anti-semite meaning anti-jewish. And i mentioned that there is no real reason revise the word antisemite. I said "I Also know, that this is how the english language has evolved. So it does'nt really matter. Today, when you say that a person is an anti-semite, it means he is anti-jewish. And I, for one, have no problem with that."

As am I. I said (in my post): "By writing this i am not saying that Islam teaches us to hate Jews, or make them our enemies, merely because they are Jews (or anybody else for that matter). Nor do i justify the beliefs or acts of Muslims who do so". I do not believe in hating anybody. My post was only to show the injustice that happens in some parts of the world today. And like you said "hatred towards Jews exists and it must end. By the same token, hatred towards Muslims exists and it must end". BRAVO TO YOU :yes: .
 
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