The Teachings of (pseudo-Pythagorean) Theano

[angellous_evangellous]

One of the most prominent philosophers of (pseudo-?) Pythagoreanism is Theano, wife or student of Pythagoras himself. She only has a few teachings exant in fragments.

One of her teachings puzzels me.

All of her extant teachings focus on the interaction between husband and wife - martial faithfulness.

If I recall correctly, she says that a woman should present herself naked (or even partially clothed) only to her husband. After sex, she taught that a woman was not ritually unclean and could enter a temple and make a sacrafice -- but if a married woman ever had sex with anyone else she could never enter a temple again. Here's the thing that gets me - she says that after she has sex with her husband, she clothes herself. With what? "That which is shameful."

I don't get it.

 

[doppelganger]

Here's the thing that gets me - she says that after she has sex with her husband, she clothes herself. With what? "That which is shameful."

I don't get it.

How about this: She gives her naked self to her husband in union - an act of moving beyond the protective barriers of shame. But she puts her "shame" back on as a barrier between herself and others when not in union with her husband. That's my first take. :rainbow1:

Can you post the actual text?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

How about this: She gives her naked self to her husband in union - an act of moving beyond the protective barriers of shame. But she puts her "shame" back on as a barrier between herself and others when not in union with her husband. That's my first take. :rainbow1:

Can you post the actual text?

Yes, but I don't have it on me. I'll have to post it after lunch unless I can find it online.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Here is the text:

They also had a son Telauges, who succeeded his father and, according to some, was Empedocles’ instructor. At all events Hippobotus makes Empedocles say: Telauges, famed son of Theano and Pythagoras. Telauges wrote nothing, so far as we know, but his mother Theano wrote a few things. Further, a story is told that being asked how many days it was before a woman becomes pure after intercourse, she replied, ‘With her own husband at once, with another man never.’ And she advised a woman going in to her own husband to put off her shame with her clothes, and on leaving him to put it on again along with them. Asked, ‘Put on what?,’ she replied, ‘What makes me to be called a woman.”[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] DL 8.22. The shame of a married woman appearing naked before a man other than her husband is discussed in Douglas L. Cairns, “‘Off with her #####’: Herodotus 1.8.3-4,” The Classical Quarterly 46, no. 1 (1996): 78-83.

 

[doppelganger]

"put off her shame with her clothes, and on leaving him to put it on again along with them."

That reinforces what I at first though it meant. She should be guarded and secretive about her sexuality except when she is with her husband, and then to set aside all of those shameful feelings, but then take them up at once afterward.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"put off her shame with her clothes, and on leaving him to put it on again along with them."

That reinforces what I at first though it meant. She should be guarded and secretive about her sexuality except when she is with her husband, and then to set aside all of those shameful feelings, but then take them up at once afterward.

I thought so too.

But this still bothers me, ‘Put on what?,’ she replied, ‘What makes me to be called a woman.' It seems that she thinks that there is something inherently shameful about being a woman.

 

[doppelganger]

I thought so too.

But this still bothers me, ‘Put on what?,’ she replied, ‘What makes me to be called a woman.' It seems that she thinks that there is something inherently shameful about being a woman.

I think it could mean a sort of sexual dignity - an honorable position the preservation of which she is responsible for. This is still true today as young girls are taught it is their responsibility to say "no" while boys are encouraged to think it is their job to get the girls to say "yes."

Doug Stanhope, the comedian, has an interesting theory that the smooth function of complex civilizations depends on these differing sex roles. That idea has some merit, perhaps.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think it could mean a sort of sexual dignity - an honorable position the preservation of which she is responsible for. This is still true today as young girls are taught it is their responsibility to say "no" while boys are encouraged to think it is their job to get the girls to say "yes."

Doug Stanhope, the comedian, has an interesting theory that the smooth function of complex civilizations depends on these differing sex roles. That idea has some merit, perhaps.

It's definately in the context of sexual purity. But the text itself associates shame with womanhood, which is not very complimentary of the female philosopher.

 

[doppelganger]

It's definately in the context of sexual purity. But the text itself associates shame with womanhood, which is not very complimentary of the female philosopher.

What word is being translated as "shame"?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What word is being translated as "shame"?

th|~ de\ pro_j to_n i1dion a1ndra mellou&sh| poreu&esqai parh|&nei a3ma toi=j e0ndu&masi kai\ th_n ai0sxu&nhn a)poti/qesqai, a)nistame/nhn te pa&lin a3m’ au)toi=sin a)nalamba&nein

And she advised a woman going in to her own husband to put off her shame with her clothes, and on leaving him to put it on again along with them.


αἰσχύν-η [υ_], ἡ,
A. shame, dishonour, “ἐς αἰσχύνην φέρει” Hdt.1.10, cf. 3.133; αἰσχύνην φέρει, ἔχει, S.Tr.66, E.Andr.244, etc.; αἰ. περιίσταταί με, συμβαίνει μοι, D.3.8, 18.85; “αἰσχύνῃ πίπτειν” S.Tr.597; “περιπίπτειν” X.HG7.3.9; “αἰσχύνην περιάπτειν τῇ πόλει” Pl.Ap.35a; “αἰ. προσβάλλειν τινί” Id.Lg.878c; “ἐν αἰ. ποιεῖν τὴν πόλιν” D.18.136; “ἡ τῶν πραγμάτων αἰ.” 1.27.
2. αἰ. γυναικῶν dishonouring of women, Isoc.4.114 (pl.), 12.259 (pl.); γράφεσθαί τινα γένους αἰσχύνης for dishonour done to his race, Pl.Lg.919e.
3. concrete, of a person, αἰ. φίλοις, πάτρᾳ, Thgn.1272, A.Pers.774; “ἄνθρωπος αἰ. τῆς πόλεως γεγονώς” Aeschin.3.241; of a decree, ib.105.
II. shame for an ill deed, personified in A.Th.409; “Αἰσχύνην οὐ νομίσασα θεόν” AP7.450 (Diosc.).
2. like &#945;&#7984;&#948;&#8061;&#962;, sense of shame, honour, &#8220;&#960;&#8118;&#963;&#945;&#957; &#945;&#7984;. &#7936;&#966;&#949;&#8055;&#962;&#8221; S.Ph.120; &#8220;&#7969; &#947;&#8048;&#961; &#945;&#7984;. <&#960;&#8049;&#961;&#959;&#962;> &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#950;&#8134;&#957; . . &#957;&#959;&#956;&#8055;&#950;&#949;&#964;&#945;&#953;&#8221; E.Heracl. 200; &#948;&#953;&#8125; &#945;&#7984;&#963;&#967;&#8059;&#957;&#951;&#962; &#7956;&#967;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#964;&#953; to be ashamed of, Id.IT683; &#945;&#7984;&#963;&#967;&#8059;&#957;&#951;&#957; &#7956;&#967;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#8057;&#962; for a thing, S.El.616; &#8220;&#945;&#7984;. &#7952;&#960;&#8055; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#953;&#8221; Pl.Smp.178d; &#8220;&#8017;&#960;&#8051;&#961; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#959;&#962;&#8221; D.4.10; joined with &#948;&#8051;&#959;&#962;, S.Aj.1079; with &#7956;&#955;&#949;&#959;&#962; and &#945;&#7984;&#948;&#8061;&#962;, Antipho 1.27 :&#8212;rare in pl., &#8220;&#960;&#964;&#8053;&#963;&#963;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#957; &#945;&#7984;&#963;&#967;&#8059;&#957;&#8131;&#963;&#953;&#957;&#8221; S.Fr.659.9; &#7952;&#957; &#945;&#7984;&#963;&#967;&#8059;&#957;&#945;&#953;&#962; &#7956;&#967;&#969; I hold it a shameful thing, E.Supp.164.
III. later = &#945;&#7984;&#948;&#959;&#8150;&#959;&#957;, Sch.Ar.Eq.365; cf. &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#963;&#8061;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#945;&#7984;. Alcid.ap Arist.Rh. 1406a29.

 

[doppelganger]

It's definately in the context of sexual purity. But the text itself associates shame with womanhood, which is not very complimentary of the female philosopher.

"Shame" could be equated with a sense of sexual dignity. Though the connotations are that the dignity is not already preserved. Perhaps it's a shorthand for a "sense of shame"?

Aside from that it is perplexing, since aischyn&#275; has nothing but negative connotations: shame, dishonesty.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"Shame" could be equated with a sense of sexual dignity. Though the connotations are that the dignity is not already preserved. Perhaps it's a shorthand for a "sense of shame"?

Aside from that it is perplexing, since aischyn&#275; has nothing but negative connotations: shame, dishonesty.

Several feminist writers have noted that in the ancient world the feminine is associated with shame. We've seen that here on RF in discussions related to homosexuality (Paul uses the word effeminate or malakaros to describe male homosexuality).

Maybe her shame is gone when she is sexually united with a male.