celina
Swaminarayan is GOD!
Some history on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya from a poster online:
http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/304596-post10.html
http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/304596-post10.html
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The Swaminarayan Faith
- Thread starter celina
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celina
Swaminarayan is GOD!
just so ya'll know the reason in the shikshapatri it says worship krishna as parmatma is because when sahajanand swami(swaminarayan)was being named he had to senior names ghanshyam and krishna. That will answer your question. It is a vedic tradition to worship guru as a god.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Belief, people belief million things, some of them quite weird. So Ramananda was Uddhava and Sahajananda was 'Akshara Brahma'. There is no end to what people believe. Actually, all, you, me, Ramananda, Sahajananda, is 'Brahman'. 'Ekameva Adviteeyam' (There is only one, no second). Even the dog in the street.
yo māḿ paśyati sarvatra, sarvaḿ ca mayi paśyati;
tasyāhaḿ na praṇaśyāmi, sa ca me na praṇaśyati.
For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.
samaḿ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, tiṣṭhantaḿ parameśvaram;
vinaśyatsv avinaśyantam, yaḥ paśyati sa paśyati.
One who sees Brahman in all bodies, and who understands that the indestructible is never destroyed in the destructible, actually sees.
vidyā-vinaya-sampanne, brāhmaṇe gavi hastini;
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinah.
The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater.
One who sees differences, really does not see.
yo māḿ paśyati sarvatra, sarvaḿ ca mayi paśyati;
tasyāhaḿ na praṇaśyāmi, sa ca me na praṇaśyati.
For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.
samaḿ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, tiṣṭhantaḿ parameśvaram;
vinaśyatsv avinaśyantam, yaḥ paśyati sa paśyati.
One who sees Brahman in all bodies, and who understands that the indestructible is never destroyed in the destructible, actually sees.
vidyā-vinaya-sampanne, brāhmaṇe gavi hastini;
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinah.
The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater.
One who sees differences, really does not see.
decentindian
New Member
"just so ya'll know the reason in the shikshapatri it says worship krishna as parmatma is because when sahajanand swami(swaminarayan)was being named he had to senior names ghanshyam and krishna. That will answer your question. It is a vedic tradition to worship guru as a god."
That's funny because I thought when Swaminarayan said Krishna he meant Krishna. How silly of me, I should have realised that when Swaminarayan says Krishna he means Swaminarayan. LOL "
Swaminarayan clearly identifies who Krishna is in the very first verse of the Shikshapatri:
"...........Lord Shree Krishna, on whose left resides Radha and in whose heart resides Lakshmi, and who performs Lila with His Bhaktas in Vrndavan."
Here Swaminarayan tells us who Krishna is, then in Shlok 108 (note the importance of this number, 108, in Sanatan Dharma) Swaminarayan says:
"hat Ishwara is Lord Shree Krishna: Parabrahman, Bhagawan, Purushottam, our beloved deity and cherished God. He is worthy of worship and devotion by all, and is the source of all incarnations."
How can he be referring to himself?? He commonly went by the name Shajanand Swami, why would he say Krishna ? His intention was not to confuse, when he said Krishna he meant Krishna, the same Krishna he described in the opening shlok of the Shikshapatri.
In addition how can you say Swaminarayan is the cause of all incarnations when in that same shlok 108 he said Krishna is?
I urge you to read the Shikshapatri literally, don't try to make inferences, don't read others' commentary, read it literally and understand Sahjanand Swami's real intentions for his Sampraday.
Shree Krsna Sharanam Mama
That's funny because I thought when Swaminarayan said Krishna he meant Krishna. How silly of me, I should have realised that when Swaminarayan says Krishna he means Swaminarayan. LOL "
Swaminarayan clearly identifies who Krishna is in the very first verse of the Shikshapatri:
"...........Lord Shree Krishna, on whose left resides Radha and in whose heart resides Lakshmi, and who performs Lila with His Bhaktas in Vrndavan."
Here Swaminarayan tells us who Krishna is, then in Shlok 108 (note the importance of this number, 108, in Sanatan Dharma) Swaminarayan says:
"hat Ishwara is Lord Shree Krishna: Parabrahman, Bhagawan, Purushottam, our beloved deity and cherished God. He is worthy of worship and devotion by all, and is the source of all incarnations."
How can he be referring to himself?? He commonly went by the name Shajanand Swami, why would he say Krishna ? His intention was not to confuse, when he said Krishna he meant Krishna, the same Krishna he described in the opening shlok of the Shikshapatri.
In addition how can you say Swaminarayan is the cause of all incarnations when in that same shlok 108 he said Krishna is?
I urge you to read the Shikshapatri literally, don't try to make inferences, don't read others' commentary, read it literally and understand Sahjanand Swami's real intentions for his Sampraday.
Shree Krsna Sharanam Mama
celina
Swaminarayan is GOD!
Swaminarayan Bhagwan is the ultimate reality; there is plenty of proof and evidence of this. When Swaminarayan uses the word Krishna in the Shikshapatri he is clearly referring to himself. Obviously he did not use his own name for many reasons. First, he wrote the book. Secondly, Krishna was extremely popular and it would seem awkward. Thirdly, Krishna in Sanskrit can also be derived to mean God.
Has Krishna Bhagwan said in his own words I am God and no other is beyond myself?
Has Krishna Bhagwan said in his own words I am God and no other is beyond myself?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Celina, you have not read my post, otherwise you would not have asked this question. This is what Lord Krishna said, 'The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater' (Srimad BhagawadGeeta, Chapter 5, verse 18). He said there is no difference between Swaminarayan or Ramakrishna or a dog or a dog-eater (chandala). Brahman constitutes them all. Even Ravana, Kamsa, Nadir Shah, or Hitler, were none other than Brahman.
Chhandogya Upanishad says, 'Yatha, saumya, ekena mrit-pindena sarvam mrinmayam vijnatam syat vacharambhanam vikaro nama-dheyam, mrittiketi eva satyam.' (http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/chhand/ch_2.html, verse 4)
(Son, as by knowing one clod of earth all things made of earth are known, though we give different names to different shapes; they are really, earth, only this is truth. - Dialogue between Sage Uddalaka Aruni and his son, Shvetaketu.)
Chhandogya Upanishad says, 'Yatha, saumya, ekena mrit-pindena sarvam mrinmayam vijnatam syat vacharambhanam vikaro nama-dheyam, mrittiketi eva satyam.' (http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/chhand/ch_2.html, verse 4)
(Son, as by knowing one clod of earth all things made of earth are known, though we give different names to different shapes; they are really, earth, only this is truth. - Dialogue between Sage Uddalaka Aruni and his son, Shvetaketu.)
decentindian
New Member
"Swaminarayan Bhagwan is the ultimate reality; there is plenty of proof and evidence of this"
Show me this "proof", from the scriptures.
"When Swaminarayan uses the word ‘Krishna’ in the Shikshapatri he is clearly referring to himself"
He clearly is not, In the very first verse of the Shikshapatri Swaminarayan says who Krishna is. Swaminarayan describes Krishna as the one who has Radha by his side, in whose heart resides Lakshmi, and plays in Vrndavan with his bhaktas.
"Krishna was extremely popular and it would seem awkward"
Why would it seem awkward? Did his devotees at the time he was present doubt him? Did Gunatitanad Swami doubt him?
Krishna in Sanskrit can also be derived to mean ‘God’
So ? Maybe thats because Krishna is God, LOL
"Has Krishna Bhagwan said in his own words “I am God and no other is beyond myself”?"
Yes he has, in the Bhagavad Gita, and the Srimad Bhagavatam:
"I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed."
"I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down."
"He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds--he, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins."
The above are a few verses from the Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna spoke to Arjun, on the eve of battle in the Mahabharat.
He most obviously claims to be GOD,
Not surprising really, Swaminarayan said the same, his devotees did not listen!!!
Shree Krishna Sharanam mama
Show me this "proof", from the scriptures.
"When Swaminarayan uses the word ‘Krishna’ in the Shikshapatri he is clearly referring to himself"
He clearly is not, In the very first verse of the Shikshapatri Swaminarayan says who Krishna is. Swaminarayan describes Krishna as the one who has Radha by his side, in whose heart resides Lakshmi, and plays in Vrndavan with his bhaktas.
"Krishna was extremely popular and it would seem awkward"
Why would it seem awkward? Did his devotees at the time he was present doubt him? Did Gunatitanad Swami doubt him?
Krishna in Sanskrit can also be derived to mean ‘God’
So ? Maybe thats because Krishna is God, LOL
"Has Krishna Bhagwan said in his own words “I am God and no other is beyond myself”?"
Yes he has, in the Bhagavad Gita, and the Srimad Bhagavatam:
"I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed."
"I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down."
"He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds--he, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins."
The above are a few verses from the Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna spoke to Arjun, on the eve of battle in the Mahabharat.
He most obviously claims to be GOD,
Not surprising really, Swaminarayan said the same, his devotees did not listen!!!
Shree Krishna Sharanam mama
celina
Swaminarayan is GOD!
Read this carfully for I will explain it all.
To understand BAPS you must first understand the basics of hinduism in genral which was first refered to as sanatan dharma, meaning eternal truth or the right way. Underneath hinduism falls every religion ranging from judaism to atheism(belief that there is no god). Any religion that has good morals and makes people better and not worse is a subset of hindusim. Even the vedas have a chapter which was written by a rushimuni who did not believe in god.
Underneath all of this is vaishnavism. What differs vaishnavism from the rest of the subsets is the belief in the five eternal entities namely; Jiv, Ishwaar, Maya, Brahm(do not mix this brahma, the creator of the universe), parabrhama. Underneath vaishnavism fall ram, krishna, all avtars of vishnu, and swaminarayan. The reason swaminarayan falls underneath this sub-subset is becuase we too belive in the five entities. but we will dwelve into that later.for now i will go onto the five entities...
The five entites are..
Jiv-which is our souls
ishwar- a jiv wich has done some great karma and has been give a resposibility of taking care of his particular seva(job). Krishna, Ram, Brahma, vishnu, mahesh, agni, vayu, indra...all of these entities fall underneath this category becuase they are still affected by the next entity. ~(as i sidenote, every refernce of ram, krishna,etc... in any hindu scripture is as ishwar and not parabrahm). Therefore if a jiv can be elevated into the status of ishwar, this means that in your past lives you could have been krishna, or ram, or shiv. the catch is that from this state you cannot go above maya, it is only possible to go above maya and liberate yourself as a jiv.
Maya- jiv and ishwar are the only entites that are affected by it.
An intresting anecdote pertaining to this matter is that when Arjun wanted to go se parabrahm (becuase krishna is not parabrhma, he is ishwar) he asked krishna for a way to go through maya to meet him. In return krishna gave him the sudarshan chakra which has the brightness of 10,000 suns. Arjun said this is more than i need to get through maya, i could have sufficed with a mere lamp. Krishna said that you will need it, and arjun did. The moment he entered maya the sudarshan chakras light went down to a flicker.
As i was saying, jiv and ishwar are the only entites affected by maya. maya can be thought of as the matrix, its everything around you, anything that you are attached to, any temporary pleasures, anything that will not go with you when you die, basically almost everything. All emotions are part of maya; greed, anger, lust, ego, the senses, everything.
Brahm-this is not the creator of the universe but infact the entity in which all universes reside in. i am not refering to the brahma that is part of the trinity with vishnu and shiv. this entity is the one in which everything resides, this entity is the abode of god, heaven.
Parabrahm-This is god, the supreme being, swaminarayan.
Now what are we. we are the souls. we are not, and i repeat, we are not the mind or the body. these will both perish when we die. it is even built into our very language i.e. by leg hurts, i HAVE an headache. Notice that we posses the headache, therefore we are not the head(mind). also notice that you posses the leg, you are not the leg(body). a very confusing concept to grasp.
i will now continue...
we believe that swaminarayan is parabrahm. the reason that he says in all of his scriptures to worship krishna is becuase that is whom everybody worshipped at that time. If Swaminarayan came along and said that he was god, well he could not say that he was god because he does not posses any ego. he is above maya. he has no anger, lust, greed, attachment. he does not care for the materialistic world. As for his legitimacy, swaminarayan has just as many miracles as krishna does. the only difference is that he changed peoples lives for there better while krishna was there to resolve the issue of kansa and the pandav vs. kurav war. i am not saying that worshipping krishna is bad, it is better then what most people do, but you must realize that with krishna you will still be below maya and therefore not permenantly liberated. you will still be in the cycle of birth and death, you will still be in maya.
Pramukh Swami is brahma. there are many saying, one of which i will list below
guru govind dono khade kisko lago upay
baliyaari gurudev ki jine govinda batay
~both god and guru stand next to each other, to whom do i bow down to
i bown down to the guru for without him, how would i know who god was
at this time, tulsidas was refering to god as being krishna, but the essence still remains. You need someone to guide you, someone to explain the scriptures and guide on the right path. we are now smart enough to decipher the scriptures and find out for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. And what better guru then the one in which god himself resides in. Pramukh Swami. He is not god, but through him god works.
Jai Swaminarayan
To understand BAPS you must first understand the basics of hinduism in genral which was first refered to as sanatan dharma, meaning eternal truth or the right way. Underneath hinduism falls every religion ranging from judaism to atheism(belief that there is no god). Any religion that has good morals and makes people better and not worse is a subset of hindusim. Even the vedas have a chapter which was written by a rushimuni who did not believe in god.
Underneath all of this is vaishnavism. What differs vaishnavism from the rest of the subsets is the belief in the five eternal entities namely; Jiv, Ishwaar, Maya, Brahm(do not mix this brahma, the creator of the universe), parabrhama. Underneath vaishnavism fall ram, krishna, all avtars of vishnu, and swaminarayan. The reason swaminarayan falls underneath this sub-subset is becuase we too belive in the five entities. but we will dwelve into that later.for now i will go onto the five entities...
The five entites are..
Jiv-which is our souls
ishwar- a jiv wich has done some great karma and has been give a resposibility of taking care of his particular seva(job). Krishna, Ram, Brahma, vishnu, mahesh, agni, vayu, indra...all of these entities fall underneath this category becuase they are still affected by the next entity. ~(as i sidenote, every refernce of ram, krishna,etc... in any hindu scripture is as ishwar and not parabrahm). Therefore if a jiv can be elevated into the status of ishwar, this means that in your past lives you could have been krishna, or ram, or shiv. the catch is that from this state you cannot go above maya, it is only possible to go above maya and liberate yourself as a jiv.
Maya- jiv and ishwar are the only entites that are affected by it.
An intresting anecdote pertaining to this matter is that when Arjun wanted to go se parabrahm (becuase krishna is not parabrhma, he is ishwar) he asked krishna for a way to go through maya to meet him. In return krishna gave him the sudarshan chakra which has the brightness of 10,000 suns. Arjun said this is more than i need to get through maya, i could have sufficed with a mere lamp. Krishna said that you will need it, and arjun did. The moment he entered maya the sudarshan chakras light went down to a flicker.
As i was saying, jiv and ishwar are the only entites affected by maya. maya can be thought of as the matrix, its everything around you, anything that you are attached to, any temporary pleasures, anything that will not go with you when you die, basically almost everything. All emotions are part of maya; greed, anger, lust, ego, the senses, everything.
Brahm-this is not the creator of the universe but infact the entity in which all universes reside in. i am not refering to the brahma that is part of the trinity with vishnu and shiv. this entity is the one in which everything resides, this entity is the abode of god, heaven.
Parabrahm-This is god, the supreme being, swaminarayan.
Now what are we. we are the souls. we are not, and i repeat, we are not the mind or the body. these will both perish when we die. it is even built into our very language i.e. by leg hurts, i HAVE an headache. Notice that we posses the headache, therefore we are not the head(mind). also notice that you posses the leg, you are not the leg(body). a very confusing concept to grasp.
i will now continue...
we believe that swaminarayan is parabrahm. the reason that he says in all of his scriptures to worship krishna is becuase that is whom everybody worshipped at that time. If Swaminarayan came along and said that he was god, well he could not say that he was god because he does not posses any ego. he is above maya. he has no anger, lust, greed, attachment. he does not care for the materialistic world. As for his legitimacy, swaminarayan has just as many miracles as krishna does. the only difference is that he changed peoples lives for there better while krishna was there to resolve the issue of kansa and the pandav vs. kurav war. i am not saying that worshipping krishna is bad, it is better then what most people do, but you must realize that with krishna you will still be below maya and therefore not permenantly liberated. you will still be in the cycle of birth and death, you will still be in maya.
Pramukh Swami is brahma. there are many saying, one of which i will list below
guru govind dono khade kisko lago upay
baliyaari gurudev ki jine govinda batay
~both god and guru stand next to each other, to whom do i bow down to
i bown down to the guru for without him, how would i know who god was
at this time, tulsidas was refering to god as being krishna, but the essence still remains. You need someone to guide you, someone to explain the scriptures and guide on the right path. we are now smart enough to decipher the scriptures and find out for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. And what better guru then the one in which god himself resides in. Pramukh Swami. He is not god, but through him god works.
Jai Swaminarayan
I think it is time someone settled this argument once and for all.
I am a follower of the Swaminarayan sampraday, the true branch installed by Swaminarayan bhagvan himself. This is written in the Sikshapatri (the original can be found in Oxford, England. Baps, please read it !! Don't read the parts which fit with your idea. You adhere to it all, not pick and choose.)
Swaminaryan bhagvan wrote in the Sikshaptri that anyone who does not follow the Shikshapatri is outside the sampraday. Any Swaminarayan saint must be initiated by either of the two acharays installed by Swaminarayan bhagvan. Baps saints are not. Therefore they are not following the Sikshapatri and thus are vimukh and not part of the Swaminarayan sampraday. They can spend as much money as they want building magnificent temples, but according to Lord Swaminarayan, Baps is not part of the Swaminarayan sampraday. They are a pariah sampraday. They have adapted the original Shikshapatri to fit their organisation. If they adhere to it all, the swamis are not true Swaminarayan swamis, are they Baps??
Secondly, Swaminarayan, Krishna, Ram, Nar-Naryan, matsya avtar, kurma avtar etc. are incarnations of Purushottam Narayan. They are all equal. This Purushottam Narayan is also known as Vasudev, Krushna (different to Krishna of Gokul) in the Bhagvatam. Every Swaminarayan temple (the true branch) will have Ganpati and Hanuman murtis. They may have murtis of other incarnations such as Ram, Krishna, etc. depends on their individual choice.
We hold Swaminarayan bhagvan dear to our hearts because we have chosen Him as our Ishtadev. Similarly, Krishna devotees hold Krishna bhagvan dear to their hearts and they should, similar to that of a pativrata lady holding her husband dear to her heart and not other men. Similarly, Ram devotees hold Ram bhagvan dear to their hearts. The reason for choosing a single incarnation to meditate upon is so that meditation is easier. One incarnation, one image, single minded devotion! All these devotees will go to the same place when they achieve atyantik kalyan (moksha) regardless of whether they are Ram devotees, Krishna devotees or Swaminarayan devotees.
Any non Swaminarayan devotees, if you have any questions about the original sampraday, i will try to answer these or get the answers from other people and post them here.
Please forgive me if i have offended anyone but the above is the truth and it has to be said so that other people who are not familiar with the Swaminarayan samraday know the truth!
Jai Shree Swaminarayan
Jai NarNarayan Dev
Jai Radha Krisna Dev
Jai Lakshmi Narayan Dev
I am a follower of the Swaminarayan sampraday, the true branch installed by Swaminarayan bhagvan himself. This is written in the Sikshapatri (the original can be found in Oxford, England. Baps, please read it !! Don't read the parts which fit with your idea. You adhere to it all, not pick and choose.)
Swaminaryan bhagvan wrote in the Sikshaptri that anyone who does not follow the Shikshapatri is outside the sampraday. Any Swaminarayan saint must be initiated by either of the two acharays installed by Swaminarayan bhagvan. Baps saints are not. Therefore they are not following the Sikshapatri and thus are vimukh and not part of the Swaminarayan sampraday. They can spend as much money as they want building magnificent temples, but according to Lord Swaminarayan, Baps is not part of the Swaminarayan sampraday. They are a pariah sampraday. They have adapted the original Shikshapatri to fit their organisation. If they adhere to it all, the swamis are not true Swaminarayan swamis, are they Baps??
Secondly, Swaminarayan, Krishna, Ram, Nar-Naryan, matsya avtar, kurma avtar etc. are incarnations of Purushottam Narayan. They are all equal. This Purushottam Narayan is also known as Vasudev, Krushna (different to Krishna of Gokul) in the Bhagvatam. Every Swaminarayan temple (the true branch) will have Ganpati and Hanuman murtis. They may have murtis of other incarnations such as Ram, Krishna, etc. depends on their individual choice.
We hold Swaminarayan bhagvan dear to our hearts because we have chosen Him as our Ishtadev. Similarly, Krishna devotees hold Krishna bhagvan dear to their hearts and they should, similar to that of a pativrata lady holding her husband dear to her heart and not other men. Similarly, Ram devotees hold Ram bhagvan dear to their hearts. The reason for choosing a single incarnation to meditate upon is so that meditation is easier. One incarnation, one image, single minded devotion! All these devotees will go to the same place when they achieve atyantik kalyan (moksha) regardless of whether they are Ram devotees, Krishna devotees or Swaminarayan devotees.
Any non Swaminarayan devotees, if you have any questions about the original sampraday, i will try to answer these or get the answers from other people and post them here.
Please forgive me if i have offended anyone but the above is the truth and it has to be said so that other people who are not familiar with the Swaminarayan samraday know the truth!
Jai Shree Swaminarayan
Jai NarNarayan Dev
Jai Radha Krisna Dev
Jai Lakshmi Narayan Dev
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
So Baps is not Swaminarayana and the two saints are. Please tell us who these two saints are? Are they the Vadtal Swamis? Such gurus, who declare themselves to be Bhagwan or whose followers declare them to be Bhagwan have harmed Hinduism immensely. The line I love the most is 'Guru ko maro Goli' (shoot the guru). They are heretics and not real gurus. Most are engaged in dishonest financial transactions or sexual crimes. They take advantage of the simplicity of hindus. Hindus should remember that everyone of them is a part of 'Brahman'.
celina
Swaminarayan is GOD!
ON TOPIC:
Pushpadolotsav, Sarangpur, India
4th March 2007
http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img3829fgg2.jpg
http://www.swaminarayan.org/news/2007/03/pushpadolotsav/photo1.htm
Pushpadolotsav, Sarangpur, India
4th March 2007
http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img3829fgg2.jpg
http://www.swaminarayan.org/news/2007/03/pushpadolotsav/photo1.htm
Dear Aupmanyav,
I love your posts. I like the arguments you are making, but its clear to me that you're strictly adhering to Sankaracharya's Advaita system. Although I agree word-for-word with everything you are saying, the necessity for coming into the association with a knower of Brahman still holds. For the followers of Sri Swaminarayana, this means that extracting the knowledge he spews in his Vachanamrut and through his life is a necessity to understand the characteristics of a truly realized individual.
I am a disciple of Pramukh Swami, but refuse to fall into the shadow of ignorance that arises from false pride, thus I wholeheartedly believe that Brahma-gnaanis exist in all corners of the Hindu tradition. Conflict only arises when people start using their own conditioned intellect and ego. I like your references to the Shrutis and Smrutis. We need more mature people like yourself when it comes to discussing soteriological philosophy, not religious dogma.
Everyone needs to drop the "I belong to BAPS" or "Shree Swaminarayan Sampradaya is the original Swaminarayan tradition". Those who study the life of Sri Swaminarayana and read his Vachanamrut understand that spiritual discipline is far beyond any of these religious dogmas and false pride that comes with associating with BAPS or Swaminarayan Sampradaya.
Basically,
1. Accept a Brahman-realised Guru.
2. Follow him with a pure heart, sattva-gun, and love.
3. Recognize the difference between religion and spirituality. Throw away religious affiliations and understand that the Truth is One and Indivisible. Sarva dharman parityajya.
So, instead of discussing the "differences" of BAPS, Swaminarayan Sampradaya, ISKCON, Srivaishnavism, etc., why don't we shift to a discussion more focused towards daily practice?
Some questions to get started:
1. What processes (mental, physical, or any other) should one go through in order to successfully condone sense gratification?
2. What are some techniques of meditative practice some of you use that you have found to be successful in enhancing your bhakti? Which mantras have you used? How do you merge your consciousness with the divine sound of the holy Name of God?
3. Lord Krishna says in the Gita: "Tyaja dharmam adharmam cha..." i.e. renounce the ideology that "I must follow set guidelines and practice only good karma," and understand that one is beyond any Karma, but essentially One with God. How can we put this into practice in our day-to-day living? How can we renounce both conceptions of Dharma and Adharma, and live in pure meditative tranquility that Lord Krishna is speaking of here?
Instead of asking questions like "Your sadhus are corrupt" or "Pramukh Swami is a fake" or any other useless and trivial verbal diarrhea, let's make this forum into a useful tool to help us all become more spiritually elevated, to the level of our respective Gurus.
OM SHANTI.
--
Aum iti etad Aksharam idam sarvam.
--Mandukya Upanisad I-1
I love your posts. I like the arguments you are making, but its clear to me that you're strictly adhering to Sankaracharya's Advaita system. Although I agree word-for-word with everything you are saying, the necessity for coming into the association with a knower of Brahman still holds. For the followers of Sri Swaminarayana, this means that extracting the knowledge he spews in his Vachanamrut and through his life is a necessity to understand the characteristics of a truly realized individual.
I am a disciple of Pramukh Swami, but refuse to fall into the shadow of ignorance that arises from false pride, thus I wholeheartedly believe that Brahma-gnaanis exist in all corners of the Hindu tradition. Conflict only arises when people start using their own conditioned intellect and ego. I like your references to the Shrutis and Smrutis. We need more mature people like yourself when it comes to discussing soteriological philosophy, not religious dogma.
Everyone needs to drop the "I belong to BAPS" or "Shree Swaminarayan Sampradaya is the original Swaminarayan tradition". Those who study the life of Sri Swaminarayana and read his Vachanamrut understand that spiritual discipline is far beyond any of these religious dogmas and false pride that comes with associating with BAPS or Swaminarayan Sampradaya.
Basically,
1. Accept a Brahman-realised Guru.
2. Follow him with a pure heart, sattva-gun, and love.
3. Recognize the difference between religion and spirituality. Throw away religious affiliations and understand that the Truth is One and Indivisible. Sarva dharman parityajya.
So, instead of discussing the "differences" of BAPS, Swaminarayan Sampradaya, ISKCON, Srivaishnavism, etc., why don't we shift to a discussion more focused towards daily practice?
Some questions to get started:
1. What processes (mental, physical, or any other) should one go through in order to successfully condone sense gratification?
2. What are some techniques of meditative practice some of you use that you have found to be successful in enhancing your bhakti? Which mantras have you used? How do you merge your consciousness with the divine sound of the holy Name of God?
3. Lord Krishna says in the Gita: "Tyaja dharmam adharmam cha..." i.e. renounce the ideology that "I must follow set guidelines and practice only good karma," and understand that one is beyond any Karma, but essentially One with God. How can we put this into practice in our day-to-day living? How can we renounce both conceptions of Dharma and Adharma, and live in pure meditative tranquility that Lord Krishna is speaking of here?
Instead of asking questions like "Your sadhus are corrupt" or "Pramukh Swami is a fake" or any other useless and trivial verbal diarrhea, let's make this forum into a useful tool to help us all become more spiritually elevated, to the level of our respective Gurus.
OM SHANTI.
--
Aum iti etad Aksharam idam sarvam.
--Mandukya Upanisad I-1
celina
Swaminarayan is GOD!
The Shikshapatri's statement in verse 128 ( http://www.shikshapatri.org.uk/ - the one in England) is as follows:
"madāśritānāṃ sarveṣān dharmarakṣaṇahetave gurūtve sthāpitābhyānca tābhyān dīkṣyā mumukṣavaḥ"
While a direct reference to acharya is actually NOT included here, it is followed from verse 123 that 128 also refers to the acharyas. In this verse the position of Acharya (referred to in this verse as guru) is given to the ones who will protect (raksha) dharma. The true test of who is an Acharya, is therefore, NOT merely that they are relatives of Swaminarayan, but that they are protectors the Dharma he established. In SWAMINARAYAN's time, Ayodhyaprasadji Maharaj and Raghuvirji Maharaj (relatives of Swaminarayan) did a spectacular job of protecting that dharma! But they have long since passed. Technically, NO sadhu in the present day has been initiated by the two acharyas that SWAMINARAYAN appointed. But that's a minor detail, if one assumes that each acharya's successor is of the same caliber as the original two such that Swaminarayan, if alive, would have appointed the successor as acharya as well.
The issue of which path is "correct" is NOT at all settled. To settle it, one must answer the question: Which fold is protecting Swaminarayan's dharma better?
I don't pretend to have the or even an answer to that question. Each must perform his own evaluation of the work of Pramukh Swami Maharaj and of the Acharyas and figure out who is doing the better job.
celina
Swaminarayan is GOD!
43 Dharmadeva tada murtau, narnarayanatmana Pravrte-pi kalau Brahman! Bhutvaham samago dvijaha
44 Munishapannrutam praptam, sarshim janakaatmanaha Tato-vita gurubhyoham saddharmam sthapayannaja
Swaminarayan translation:
43 From Dharma-deva, then, from the devotee, I, Narayan-muni, shall take birth on this earth, in the land of Kosala, indeed, as a brahma, a singer of the Sama Veda.
44 O Brahma, when cursed by a muni, some rsis take birth as human beings, I will protect them from the demons and I will establish the principles of religion.
Someone pointed out that the actual nar-naryana rishi's farthers name was also Dharma and his mothers name was Murti.
Bhagavatam. 1.3.9
TRANSLATION
In the fourth incarnation, the Lord became Nara and Näräyaëa, the twin sons of the wife of King Dharma. Thus He undertook severe and exemplary penances to control the senses.
Bhagvatam 2.7.6
dharmasyaof Dharma (the controller of religious principles); dakñaDakña, one of the Prajäpatis; duhitariunto the daughter; ajaniñöatook birth; mürtyämof the name Mürti; näräyaëaùNäräyaëa; naraùNara; itithus; sva-tapaùpersonal penances; prabhävaùstrength; dåñöväby seeing; ätmanaùof His own; bhagavataùof the Personality of Godhead; niyama-avalopambreaking the vow; devyaùcelestial beauties; tubut; anaìga-påtanäùcompanion of Cupid; ghaöitumto happen; nanever; çekuùmade possible.
TRANSLATION
To exhibit His personal way of austerity and penance, He appeared in twin forms as Näräyaëa and Nara in the womb of Mürti, the wife of Dharma and the daughter of Dakña. Celestial beauties, the companions of Cupid, went to try to break His vows, but they were unsuccessful, for they saw that many beauties like them were emanating from Him, the Personality of Godhead.
SB 7.11.7
Lord Näräyaëa, along with His partial manifestation Nara, appeared in this world through the daughter of Dakña Mahäräja known as Mürti. He was begotten by Dharma Mahäräja for the benefit of all living entities. Even now, He is still engaged in executing great austerities near the place known as Badarikäçrama.
44 Munishapannrutam praptam, sarshim janakaatmanaha Tato-vita gurubhyoham saddharmam sthapayannaja
Swaminarayan translation:
43 From Dharma-deva, then, from the devotee, I, Narayan-muni, shall take birth on this earth, in the land of Kosala, indeed, as a brahma, a singer of the Sama Veda.
44 O Brahma, when cursed by a muni, some rsis take birth as human beings, I will protect them from the demons and I will establish the principles of religion.
Someone pointed out that the actual nar-naryana rishi's farthers name was also Dharma and his mothers name was Murti.
Bhagavatam. 1.3.9
TRANSLATION
In the fourth incarnation, the Lord became Nara and Näräyaëa, the twin sons of the wife of King Dharma. Thus He undertook severe and exemplary penances to control the senses.
Bhagvatam 2.7.6
dharmasyaof Dharma (the controller of religious principles); dakñaDakña, one of the Prajäpatis; duhitariunto the daughter; ajaniñöatook birth; mürtyämof the name Mürti; näräyaëaùNäräyaëa; naraùNara; itithus; sva-tapaùpersonal penances; prabhävaùstrength; dåñöväby seeing; ätmanaùof His own; bhagavataùof the Personality of Godhead; niyama-avalopambreaking the vow; devyaùcelestial beauties; tubut; anaìga-påtanäùcompanion of Cupid; ghaöitumto happen; nanever; çekuùmade possible.
TRANSLATION
To exhibit His personal way of austerity and penance, He appeared in twin forms as Näräyaëa and Nara in the womb of Mürti, the wife of Dharma and the daughter of Dakña. Celestial beauties, the companions of Cupid, went to try to break His vows, but they were unsuccessful, for they saw that many beauties like them were emanating from Him, the Personality of Godhead.
SB 7.11.7
Lord Näräyaëa, along with His partial manifestation Nara, appeared in this world through the daughter of Dakña Mahäräja known as Mürti. He was begotten by Dharma Mahäräja for the benefit of all living entities. Even now, He is still engaged in executing great austerities near the place known as Badarikäçrama.
The acharyas in the Shikshapatri do refer to Swaminarayan's brothers' sons, Ayodhyaprasadji Maharaj and Raghuvirji Maharaj. However, the true spiritual acharya lineage that has continued from that day onwards to this present day has been through the blood relatives of Swaminarayan bhagwan. Shriji Mahraj in the very first Vachanamrut refers to the "dharmakur na ashrit eva je bhagwan na bhakta" - the kur (generations) of dharma (Dharmadev) ashrit (followers). Swaminarayan bhagwan is referring to followers of the Dharamakul line. Also in Shikshapatri sloka 133 - translated: 'The wives of these Acharyas, with the permission of their husbands, shall initiate, preach, and give the Mantra Diksha of Lord Shree Krishna to females only' , Shriji Mahraj says that the wives of the acharyas should give gurumantra to the female devotees only. Thus, the true acharyas of the Swaminarayan samraday are blood relatives, generations of Shriji Maharaj (descedents of Ayodhyaprasadji Maharaj and Raghuvirji Maharaj) who are householders and not tyagis (as tyagis do not have wives). Currently, these two acharyas are Rakeshprasadji Mahraj of Vadtal and Koshalendraprasadji Mahraj of Ahmdebad.
Also, if we look at sloka 62 of the Shikshapatri: 'My disciples shall worship only those idols of Lord Shree Krishna which have been given to them by the Acharya (Guru) installed by him. Only reverent obeisance shall be offered to other idols', the murtis in a Swmainarayan mandir must be installed by the acharya, otherwise they are worthy of namaskar but not worthy of worship.
Jay Shri Swaminarayan
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You Swaminarayanas and your lineal and non-lineal gurus who have monopolized <strike>wisdom</strike> conflict, you are laughable and pitiable. Is it 'dharma' or money? You and your gurus have not learned anything of Hinduism. It is really a shame. Keep on fighting among yourself. Bravo. You mean Gavaskar's son must be in the Indian squad. Being a follower or a progeny does not guarantee wisdom.
celina
Swaminarayan is GOD!
I agree wholeheartedly that the Shikshapatri declares that Ayodhyaprasadji Maharaj and Raghuvirji Maharaj are the two appointed Acharyas. But I don't believe that Swaminarayan appointed them solely on the basis of bloodline. If his nephews were were robbers, thieves, or bandits, he wouldn't have appointed Ayodhyaprasadji and Raghuvirji as Acharyas. Then why did he? Because He believed them to be spiritually fit to protect the dharma that He had re-established. Birth-status does not make one divine or spiritually pure - Swaminarayan made that point very clear. That the acharyas are the blood-relatives of Swaminarayan does not make them fit to be spiritual leaders. It is that they are protecting Swaminarayan's dharma that makes them spiritual leaders.
We can conclude that the position of Acharya (guru) is not blood-dependent, but dependent on that individual's ability to protect the dharma of Swaminarayan.
As for the women, a worthy, spiritually pure acharya can be trusted to marry a spiritually pure woman - and have done, no doubt. That she is spiritually pure is why she is given the responsibility of initiating and preaching to other women. Not just because she's married. A simple analogy: A righteous King marrying a woman doesn't MAKE the woman righteous. He marries her BECAUSE she already is righteous.
In the end, however, the ability (or right, if you will) to initiate sadhus or women, install murtis and be a spiritual leader in temples, is not an issue of birthright or of marriage. It is an issue of spiritual character.
Even in everyday life we judge fitness of character not by birth, but by looking to the individual's actions.
Jai Swaminarayan! :bow:
No Swaminarayana dharma is in perfect tune with traditional vedic dharma, Bhagwan Swaminarayan encompassed all the avatars teachings. Bhagwan Swaminarayan is Sarva Avtaari But the avtaars are all His.
All avtaars are His and He is them. All one, But Maharaj is sarva karan na karan, the cause of all causes and the Avtaari Purshottam Narayan himself.
Jai Shree Swaminarayan
Jai NarNarayan Dev
Jai Radha Krisna Dev
Jai Lakshmi Narayan Dev
- Status