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The "something can't come from nothing" argument

Thana

Thana

Lady
Big_TJ said:
I have seen this argument branded about to somewhat discredit evolution (I am lost as to why persons think this have anything to do with evolution, but that's another story). But I would put it to "creationists" that it is you who are advocating that something indeed came out of nothing. Let's forget the "who created God" question for a while; you (usually) advocate that God created everything..ok.

So here is my question: What did God uses to create the VERY FIRST thing that he created? Wouldn't that FIRST thing had to be created from ....nothing?? For example, if he created dirt first, what did he create that dirt from (since dirt would be the first thing created, there wouldn't be any other "something" around; would there)?

See, your argument that God created everything cannot, in my opinion, work unless you are advocating the "something actually came from nothing."
Click to expand...


I suppose the theory would go something like this.
God wasn't created. God is a being that has always been. Something that wasn't born, But something that has always existed.

Then Earth came from God, Just like Adam came from earth, And Eve from Adam.
So suppose that earth, the universe etc is actually just a piece of God.
That light, Water, minerals, humans, animals etc are actually pieces of God.

Anyway, That's just a theory but I think it encompasses everything you asked.
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Thana said:
I suppose the theory would go something like this.
God wasn't created. God is a being that has always been. Something that wasn't born, But something that has always existed.
Click to expand...
The second you allow for something to be exempt from from the rule is the same second you undermine the rule.

If god can be an exception, then why can't the universe also be an exception?
How do you propose to show that the universe cannot be an exception in such a manner that would not include god?
 
Thana

Thana

Lady
Mestemia said:
The second you allow for something to be exempt from from the rule is the same second you undermine the rule.

If god can be an exception, then why can't the universe also be an exception?
How do you propose to show that the universe cannot be an exception in such a manner that would not include god?
Click to expand...


But is a God not exempt from all the rules?
I mean, If he created the rules, Then he also has the ability not to follow them.

But... I see your point.
However, Who said the universe has also not always been?
Perhaps it is God, Or a large part of God, etc.

There are many theories that can be made concerning this subject that are not able to be disproven (Yet. For all you lovely Athiests out there ;) )
 
Ouroboros

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Thana said:
But is a God not exempt from all the rules?
I mean, If he created the rules, Then he also has the ability not to follow them.
Click to expand...
In a logical argument you can't assume that the same thing you're making an argument for is the very same thing that is except for the rules in the argument. I think it's called special pleading fallacy or begging the question.
 
Thana

Thana

Lady
Ouroboros said:
In a logical argument you can't assume that the same thing you're making an argument for is the very same thing that is except for the rules in the argument. I think it's called special pleading fallacy or begging the question.
Click to expand...


Unless you're talking about an all powerful being that can do anything and everything imaginable.

Kinda makes it hard to fit Him into a box of logic and reason.
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Thana said:
Unless you're talking about an all powerful being that can do anything and everything imaginable.
Click to expand...
Then why bother using the rule in the first place?

Thana said:
Kinda makes it hard to fit Him into a box of logic and reason.
Click to expand...

It seems to me it is rather illogical and unreasonable to use logic and reason to describe/define a being that is not bound by the logic and reason you employ to describe/define him.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Big_TJ said:
I have seen this argument branded about to somewhat discredit evolution (I am lost as to why persons think this have anything to do with evolution, but that's another story). But I would put it to "creationists" that it is you who are advocating that something indeed came out of nothing. Let's forget the "who created God" question for a while; you (usually) advocate that God created everything..ok.

So here is my question: What did God uses to create the VERY FIRST thing that he created? Wouldn't that FIRST thing had to be created from ....nothing?? For example, if he created dirt first, what did he create that dirt from (since dirt would be the first thing created, there wouldn't be any other "something" around; would there)?

See, your argument that God created everything cannot, in my opinion, work unless you are advocating the "something actually came from nothing."
Click to expand...

I believe Spirit before substance.

Let there be light...is synonymous to..."I AM!"

Those who understand will know whose law this is....
so He said to Moses.
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Thief said:
I believe Spirit before substance.

Let there be light...is synonymous to..."I AM!"

Those who understand will know whose law this is....
so He said to Moses.
Click to expand...

What does this have to do with the post you replied to?
 
idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
Big_TJ said:
I have seen this argument branded about to somewhat discredit evolution (I am lost as to why persons think this have anything to do with evolution, but that's another story). But I would put it to "creationists" that it is you who are advocating that something indeed came out of nothing. Let's forget the "who created God" question for a while; you (usually) advocate that God created everything..ok.

So here is my question: What did God uses to create the VERY FIRST thing that he created? Wouldn't that FIRST thing had to be created from ....nothing?? For example, if he created dirt first, what did he create that dirt from (since dirt would be the first thing created, there wouldn't be any other "something" around; would there)?

See, your argument that God created everything cannot, in my opinion, work unless you are advocating the "something actually came from nothing."
Click to expand...

One supernatural event is hard to believe but two events of nothing to something is a bit much. God came from nothing and then what he manges to create out of nothing. Maybe god just existed so he blew himself up.
 
idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
Thief said:
and you already know I have no religion or dogmatic belief....
I believe in God for cause and reason.
Click to expand...
Your close to dogmatic dualism. You preach it enough. Sure there may be cause and reason to speculate.
 
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