The "something can't come from nothing" argument

[Big_TJ]

I have seen this argument branded about to somewhat discredit evolution (I am lost as to why persons think this have anything to do with evolution, but that's another story). But I would put it to "creationists" that it is you who are advocating that something indeed came out of nothing. Let's forget the "who created God" question for a while; you (usually) advocate that God created everything..ok.

So here is my question: What did God uses to create the VERY FIRST thing that he created? Wouldn't that FIRST thing had to be created from ....nothing?? For example, if he created dirt first, what did he create that dirt from (since dirt would be the first thing created, there wouldn't be any other "something" around; would there)?

See, your argument that God created everything cannot, in my opinion, work unless you are advocating the "something actually came from nothing."

 

[Sunstone]

Interesting argument! Thanks for that one!

 

[Pegg]

I have seen this argument branded about to somewhat discredit evolution (I am lost as to why persons think this have anything to do with evolution, but that's another story). But I would put it to "creationists" that it is you who are advocating that something indeed came out of nothing. Let's forget the "who created God" question for a while; you (usually) advocate that God created everything..ok.

So here is my question: What did God uses to create the VERY FIRST thing that he created? Wouldn't that FIRST thing had to be created from ....nothing?? For example, if he created dirt first, what did he create that dirt from (since dirt would be the first thing created, there wouldn't be any other "something" around; would there)?

See, your argument that God created everything cannot, in my opinion, work unless you are advocating the "something actually came from nothing."

the first thing is that God does not exist inside our physical universe....he's from outside of it and we dont know what the metaphysical world/dimension is made of. So the first thing he created was something 'metaphysical' not something physical.

Secondly, the bible tell us what he used to create the physical universe and all the matter in it... his 'active force' or his 'energy'

We know that energy alone could not have created matter because energy is static and cannot do anything undirected and unguided. So the only explanation is that God used his own power and directed it to create the matter which we and everything inside our universe is made from. (E=mC2)

Isaiah 40:26*“Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing.

 

[McBell]

the first thing is that God does not exist inside our physical universe....he's from outside of it and we dont know what the metaphysical world/dimension is made of. So the first thing he created was something 'metaphysical' not something physical.

So there was something after all...

 

[BlondePaparazzi]

Well, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. So the energy in the universe came from somewhere, even before the big band. God? I'm not so sure. But I DO believe that there is some life "force" or "energy" out there. I don't think we go on after this, in the sense that we remember who we are and all, but I think our energy in our bodies is circulated throughout the world, or the universe, or other dimensions, etc. I have nothing to back this up so it's just my hypothesis for my own personal pursuit. But something came from something... I just am not sure that something is God, but I certainly am still trying to decide what I believe about a higher power. I still have a lot of life left so I hope to figure something out, however I know I will never be 100% sure. That makes life interesting, I suppose!

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

the first thing is that God does not exist inside our physical universe....he's from outside of it and we dont know what the metaphysical world/dimension is made of. So the first thing he created was something 'metaphysical' not something physical.

Secondly, the bible tell us what he used to create the physical universe and all the matter in it... his 'active force' or his 'energy'

We know that energy alone could not have created matter because energy is static and cannot do anything undirected and unguided. So the only explanation is that God used his own power and directed it to create the matter which we and everything inside our universe is made from. (E=mC2)

Isaiah 40:26*“Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing.

The M in E=MC2...is not matter...it is mass.
The formula is saying that something with a certain mass when multiplied with the speed of light (movement), will produce that much energy. Apparently the E as well is the energy of the thing at like rest so it's E0 or E naught.

Energy and Mass are properties of Matter. Energy is what the matter has in relation to it's position to other objects when it is at rest (Potential energy) or in movement (kinetic) and Mass is like the amount of resistance that the matter has.

 

[fantome profane]

I have seen this argument branded about to somewhat discredit evolution (I am lost as to why persons think this have anything to do with evolution, but that's another story). But I would put it to "creationists" that it is you who are advocating that something indeed came out of nothing. Let's forget the "who created God" question for a while; you (usually) advocate that God created everything..ok.

So here is my question: What did God uses to create the VERY FIRST thing that he created? Wouldn't that FIRST thing had to be created from ....nothing?? For example, if he created dirt first, what did he create that dirt from (since dirt would be the first thing created, there wouldn't be any other "something" around; would there)?

See, your argument that God created everything cannot, in my opinion, work unless you are advocating the "something actually came from nothing."

The problem that I see with the argument that is that it simply doesn't apply to evolution. The theory of evolution simply explains the diversity of life through mutation and natural selection. It is a biological process that does not begin until life exists. And the argument does not even apply to abiogenesis, which is about life coming from non-living components.

The problem is that when creationist make this argument they are not even aware that they are not making an argument against evolution. What they are doing is making an argument in favour of "God". See Peg's response to the OP where she is defending her theology. It is all irrelevant to the question of evolution. So even if the argument is good argument for the existence of "God" (I don't find it particularly compelling), it is irrelevant to the topic of evolution.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

The problem that I see with the argument that is that it simply doesn't apply to evolution. The theory of evolution simply explains the diversity of life through mutation and natural selection. It is a biological process that does not begin until life exists. And the argument does not even apply to abiogenesis, which is about life coming from non-living components.

The problem is that when creationist make this argument they are not even aware that they are not making an argument against evolution. What they are doing is making an argument in favour of "God". See Peg's response to the OP where she is defending her theology. It is all irrelevant to the question of evolution. So even if the argument is good argument for the existence of "God" (I don't find it particularly compelling), it is irrelevant to the topic of evolution.

Technically life is still a product of non-living components. DNA, RNA, Proteins, Carbs, Fats, all those things that sustain and maintain us and without them we perish...are not exactly alive....

 

[fantome profane]

Technically life is still a product of non-living components. DNA, RNA, Proteins, Carbs, Fats, all those things that sustain and maintain us and without them we perish...are not exactly alive....

way to miss the point dude.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

way to miss the point dude.

Not missing the point, just pointing out that life is really the collaboration and signalling of non-living components. So the idea that life produces life is kinda faulty as all the things that produce life when you get down to the molecular level are "non-living".

 

[BSM1]

If 'God' was the only thing that initially existed, then everything that has been created must have been created from 'God material' for lack of a better term. This makes us, as well as everything else that exists, 'God'. One of my pet theories is that "God" wanted to experience Itself by comparing Itself to something else, as we all do. However there was nothing that was not 'God' that even existed. God then took a miniscule part of Itself and created something that was 'not God' (being God, She could do this). We are created out of this 'not God' material simple to allow God the luxury of definition. But no matter how 'human' we scream we are, at our core is that "God fragment" that we constantly seek in one form or another. Just saying...

 

[McBell]

If 'God' was the only thing that initially existed, then everything that has been created must have been created from 'God material' for lack of a better term. This makes us, as well as everything else that exists, 'God'. One of my pet theories is that "God" wanted to experience Itself by comparing Itself to something else, as we all do. However there was nothing that was not 'God' that even existed. God then took a miniscule part of Itself and created something that was 'not God' (being God, She could do this). We are created out of this 'not God' material simple to allow God the luxury of definition. But no matter how 'human' we scream we are, at our core is that "God fragment" that we constantly seek in one form or another. Just saying...

So god is not all knowing?
How can she be if she needed to make a comparison...

 

[Ouroboros]

See, your argument that God created everything cannot, in my opinion, work unless you are advocating the "something actually came from nothing."

Except that they want it to be "something came from God," i.e. something came from "something" (being a "someone"). Thus avoiding the "from nothing."

Of course I don't agree with them. Something is constantly coming from something. What that something is, we don't know, but it doesn't have to be "someone" just because it makes us feel better, and also, the line between "something" and "someone" is blurry physically, biologically, philosophically, and psychologically speaking. What is life? What is it to be "someone" if not "something"?

 

[Ouroboros]

Not missing the point, just pointing out that life is really the collaboration and signalling of non-living components. So the idea that life produces life is kinda faulty as all the things that produce life when you get down to the molecular level are "non-living".

Yup.

The line between life and non-life is very blurry.

Essentially, the physical world is "alive" already, just not the same "alive" on all levels.

 

[Ouroboros]

If 'God' was the only thing that initially existed, then everything that has been created must have been created from 'God material' for lack of a better term. This makes us, as well as everything else that exists, 'God'. One of my pet theories is that "God" wanted to experience Itself by comparing Itself to something else, as we all do. However there was nothing that was not 'God' that even existed. God then took a miniscule part of Itself and created something that was 'not God' (being God, She could do this). We are created out of this 'not God' material simple to allow God the luxury of definition. But no matter how 'human' we scream we are, at our core is that "God fragment" that we constantly seek in one form or another. Just saying...

Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert, wrote an ebook many years ago suggesting this too. I can't remember the title, and I'm not sure it's available anymore. But he talked about how the world is debris or bits and pieces of God.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The only thing that I've seen that is able to create something from nothing is the human imagination.

 

[Ouroboros]

The only thing that I've seen that is able to create something from nothing is the human imagination.

Oh, like the creationists argument against evolution that something can't come from nothing!

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

The only thing that I've seen that is able to create something from nothing is the human imagination.

Meh it just cobbles a bunch of things together that already exist.

 

[McBell]

Except that they want it to be "something came from God," i.e. something came from "something" (being a "someone"). Thus avoiding the "from nothing."

Which, IMO, is not the problem.
The problem is when they make their god an exception to the rule.

 

[McBell]

Meh it just cobbles a bunch of things together that already exist.

Loch Ness Monster, Chubacabra, fairies, Big Foot...