mickiel
Well-Known Member
It is a trap, thats why I believe in the salvation of all, because for far too many humans, there has been no way out of sin.
Peace.
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The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.
- Thread starter mickiel
- Start date
It is a trap, thats why I believe in the salvation of all, because for far too many humans, there has been no way out of sin.
Peace.
Since Jesus was in hell (Acts 2:27,31) before God resurrected him, could it be said Jesus never knew God?
Did Jesus believe there was anguish in hell? Jesus likened being dead to being in a deep sleep according to John 11:11-14.
Didn't Jesus know the already written Hebrew OT Scriptures ? Jesus would have known what Solomon wrote at Ecc. (9:5,10) that the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing.....
Jesus would have also been familiar with the Psalms. Such as Psalm (6:5) that in death there is no remembrance; (13:3) talks of sleeping the sleep of death; (115:17) the dead do not praise God; (146:4) at death thoughts perish.
Jesus would have also known Ezekiel (18:4,20) that the soul that sins dies.
Jesus even cautioned at Matthew (10:28) to be in fear of the One that can kill the soul.
What about Adam? Where is Adam today? Genesis (2:7) plainly states that Adam, after receiving the breath of life, that Adam became a living soul.
No where does it say Adam came to have a soul, or that Adam came to possess a soul, but rather Adam was a soul. Adam was from dust and at death Adam returned to dust.
Daniel wrote (12:2) that those that sleep in the dust will awaken.
With the exception of those of Matthew (12:32) and Hebrews (6:4-6) because they are not considered in hell but in Gehenna. (Gehenna symbolic of destruction). The majority of mankind will awaken from death on resurrection morning or the thousand-year reign of Christ. (Matthew 20:28)
At that time all in hell will be delivered up according to Rev 20:13,14.
Then emptied-out hell and death die a symbolic second death or dying out of existence forever. Isn't that why Revelation (21:4) could say that even death will be no more?
Absolutely, for far too many humans there has been no way out of sin.
But what about the ones that knew the way out?______ Hebrews (6:4-6) talks of those who were once enlightened, and now it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. (Matthew 12:32)
Throughout the centuries the majority have not had the opportunity to know the way out. Since they have paid the price for their sins which is death, then, as Romans (6:7) says, they are freed or acquitted from their inherited sinful imperfection. That does not make them innocent but as a governor could pardon one so that the charges no longer stick. Jesus ransom sacrifice covers them- 1st John (1:7), and enables them to be part of the 'many' of Matthew 20:28.
Daniel (12:2) talks of them that sleep in the dust of the earth and will awaken (on resurrection morning ) with the possibility of everlasting life in view in front of them. (Isa 26:19) during Jesus coming thousand-year rule over the earth.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Well Gods Mercy is not well known.
In Ezekiel 20:6-17 it repeatedly shows that a whole nation can continually disobey God and reject him, but he will spare them and forgive them anyway.
And God does not change, Perfection does not need an upgrade, its perfect as it is. Hes going to do all the nations like this, because all nations have repeatedly done this rejection to him.
Peace.
In Ezekiel 20:6-17 it repeatedly shows that a whole nation can continually disobey God and reject him, but he will spare them and forgive them anyway.
And God does not change, Perfection does not need an upgrade, its perfect as it is. Hes going to do all the nations like this, because all nations have repeatedly done this rejection to him.
Peace.
God had to deal with Israel because of his promise to Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 22:18) .
Messiah would come through Abraham's seed.
Why stop reading at Eze 20:17 because at verse 44 is an explanation that God had to deal with them because of his name's sake. By the time of Christ (Matt 23:38) Jesus foretold and end to their spiritual 'house of worship'. That end came not only at Pentecost, but in the year 70 when the Jews revolted against the Romans and the Romans were used by God to bring an end to that Jewish system of things and 'spiritual Israel' aka Christianity was now in God's favor.
Ezekiel was clear (3:18-22) to warn both the wicked and the righteous. What would be the point of the warnings if there was no need for a change for the wicked, and that the righteous should not turn toward the wicked?
Messiah would come through Abraham's seed.
Why stop reading at Eze 20:17 because at verse 44 is an explanation that God had to deal with them because of his name's sake. By the time of Christ (Matt 23:38) Jesus foretold and end to their spiritual 'house of worship'. That end came not only at Pentecost, but in the year 70 when the Jews revolted against the Romans and the Romans were used by God to bring an end to that Jewish system of things and 'spiritual Israel' aka Christianity was now in God's favor.
Ezekiel was clear (3:18-22) to warn both the wicked and the righteous. What would be the point of the warnings if there was no need for a change for the wicked, and that the righteous should not turn toward the wicked?
mickiel
Well-Known Member
God deals with nations because thats what he wants to do, not because of some promise he made to a Prophet. Conversely, he will ignore whatever nations he wants to, reguardless of what his Prophets may ask of him.
Peace.
1st Peter 2:9 talks about a 'holy nation'. This is a spiritual not fleshly nation.
It is comprised of peoples from all physical nations (Rev 7:9,10,14; 5:9,10)
People from all countries on earth now can have God's favor to be part of or associated with that holy or spiritual Christian nation.
What nation is ignored at Rev. 19:15?
It is comprised of peoples from all physical nations (Rev 7:9,10,14; 5:9,10)
People from all countries on earth now can have God's favor to be part of or associated with that holy or spiritual Christian nation.
What nation is ignored at Rev. 19:15?
mickiel
Well-Known Member
There are no Holy People on earth now, not in my view that I have seen. No Holy Groups, no Holy Churchs. I believe it will one day happen, but not today.
Peace.
But God's spiritual nation is holy. Because of Jesus ransom sacrifice imperfect ones can be considered as righteous. Jesus will not judge by the mere appearance of the eyes, but Jesus will read the hearts of those sheep-like ones and goat-like ones of Matthew chapter 25. At that time when Jesus takes action as described at Isaiah (11:4) and Revelation (19:11,15) the great multitude of 'sheep', other sheep (John 10:16), that are mentioned as a great multitude at Rev. (7:9,10,14) are alive and will remain alive into Jesus thousand-year reign over earth. That 'day' that holiness or perfection will happen is during Jesus thousand-year 'day'. In the meantime, we can follow Jesus new command at John (13:34,35) as best as possible.
Evee
Member
But how do we know if G-d actually accepts anyone as being part of his "spiritual nation"? Because they say they accept Jesus as their saviour? Then why do some Christians say that members of LDS churches aren't "real Christians"? What about people who accept Jesus and later denounce him? John's command for Christians to "love one another" seems to be a tough one for Christians to follow. They've split into countless churches of differing opinions, some of which refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of others. These warring factions, can they still be labelled as "disciples of Jesus" if they're seriously lacking in the "new command" that he gave them.
Cobblestones
Devoid of Ettiquette
There is no such thing as "sin."
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Well not to an Atheist, no. I understand that too! Sin only exist in the Consciousness that sees it. I have often said that humans can have a brain, but yet not see whole areas of thought. Some can have brains, but yet have no consciousness, but yet still be able to think at some levels, this is how I view cavemen.
Peace.
Unlike animals who go by instinct, humans have a conscience.
What is sin but missing the mark of perfection in a relative sense.
When a child is born we know its leanings will be toward imperfection.
As the twig is bent so the tree will grow. It can't grow straight if left on its own.
What imperfection boils down to is whether we do things by accident or on purpose.
The difference is whether we do wrong on purpose, intentionally , premeditated or not.
With Adamic imperfection (imperfect passed down to us from Adam) we can do wrong by mistake, whereas what perfect Adam did was on purpose because with human perfection one can only do wrong on purpose.
What is sin but missing the mark of perfection in a relative sense.
When a child is born we know its leanings will be toward imperfection.
As the twig is bent so the tree will grow. It can't grow straight if left on its own.
What imperfection boils down to is whether we do things by accident or on purpose.
The difference is whether we do wrong on purpose, intentionally , premeditated or not.
With Adamic imperfection (imperfect passed down to us from Adam) we can do wrong by mistake, whereas what perfect Adam did was on purpose because with human perfection one can only do wrong on purpose.
Good points above ^Evee.
After the first century ended Luke wrote that false ones would be like wolves in sheep clothing (Acts 20:28,29) and cause trouble in the congregations. Jesus too foretold that would be the case even for the times of distress in our day at Matthew 24:24.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits" is a Big clue. Matthew chapter seven informs us that 'many' would come in Jesus name but prove false. So it should be no surprise to see so many denominations.
We can't read hearts, but God does. God will decide who's heart is right toward him.
The churches of Christendom often ignore God's sure promise to Abraham (Genesis 3:12; 22:18) that all the families of the earth will be blessed and all the nations of the earth will be blessed. Psalm 37:11,29 is plain that the humble meek people will be the ones to inherit the earthly realm of God's kingdom. That kingdom is the kingdom or government that the prophet Daniel believed in (7:13,13; 2:44), and is the kingdom that will fulfill Isaiah's prophecy (2:4) that is on the Isaiah Wall at the United Nations Plaza. The satisfying result is well expressed by the prophet Micah: and they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them afraid or tremble. MIcah 4:4,5. Forever a world without war. - Psalm 46:9.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Sin is in no way missing the mark of perfection, what sense does that make? You need to think about what you are accepting in your look at terms. You are suggesting that if I fall short of being perfect, that is a sin. If I do not live at a level of perfection, then that is a sin. I totally disagree with that.
Sin is willful disobedience to God, but it is more than that, because we can sin because we are swept away from our will and driven by our desire, then when that lust has conceived, there we have sin again, while not really meaning to sin. Sin is a law of the flesh and carnal consciousness. Sin is also an agent of the prince of the power of the air, its pull and influence is everywhere , even in our consciousness while we are asleep.
Peace.
Sin can also be unwillful disobedience to God. Hebrews 10:26.
Satan originally was perfect and could only sin on purpose.
Adam originally being perfect could only sin on purpose.
We as imperfect people can and do sin by mistake.
There is a difference between willful premeditated, intentional sin and sin due to imperfection by mistake. Are all of your sins on purpose, no of course not, that is why we are not held accountable as Satan and Adam and Eve were.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
I am a being who beleives in God. I also dontbelieve in hell. I agree Mickiel it is a sick concept and God thinks so too. He hates the fact that people believe this of him, it tarnishes his good name, which is why the idea of hell was thought up in the first place. To get people to turn away from God. Which is Satans ultimate purpose
Diederick
Active Member
But, if Satan exists, then where does he reside? Why did God create evil in the first place? Isn't the existence of evil while being under an omnipotent, benevolent God proof that God isn't benevolent?