The Second Commandment

[lewisnotmiller]

So, the second commandment has been popping up on my radar a little of late. I'm reading a lot about Byzantine, and for any of the uninitiated, there were basically two 'sports' in Byzantium. Arguing about the Trinity, and arguing about the second commandment.

The Trinity isn't interesting to me, and discussions on it are too esoteric for my simplistic thoughts, but discussions on the second commandment were a little more interesting.

Then tonight, stuck in a hotel room, I was trawling some videos (ads of Adelaide city, of all things), and then clicking on another one, etc, and ended up watching a very short clip of Sam Harris discussing the second commandment.

(Sidenote, it kinda a convuluted trail, and it raised in my head the possibility of a YouTube version of 'six degrees of separation'...)

For what it's worth, here is the vid, although my topic is not strictly about this video...

[youtube]nkTPAWhNIxU[/youtube]

The other thing I'm aware of is that there are different versions of the second commandment, which makes discussion more difficult. And that the very term 'Second Commandment can be interpreted differently.

Well, to hopefully help clear things up, I'm talking about;


Exodus 20:4-6

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:8-10

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

============================================

Obviously, anyone can post here, but I'm an atheist. I kinda already know the standard atheist opinion. So I'd ask that any atheists who do post try and offer something to the thread.

My interest is in what the point of this commandment is? Why is it important? What does it add, and is any benefit justifiable when compared to the harm it has caused?
This is the one I think of whenever someone says how central and moral the ten commandments are. I just don't get it (or there's nothing to get).

 

[Caladan]

The first point of reference I would offer to look at is the context of the regional and cultural environment it was written at. Why did Biblical morality preach against idolatry to begin with? What do the other Biblical narratives say about it when they illustrate the phenomenon? What other trends are a result of idolatry?
In addition to understanding the Biblical context of the second commandment it might help comparing it to a point of reference in contemporary times. For example celebrity cults, sports club and sports club symbolism/merchandise. I'm sure there might be more examples who drive the point better.

 

[Falvlun]

What, exactly, is the kerfluffle about?

The basic interpretation seems to me to be "Don't make idols". The rest just seems to be an explanation of that further theme-- what an idol consists of, and why it's a really bad thing to do.

I could see a case being made regarding the first admonition against making any carvings or likenesses, as a prohibition against making any sort of art, like sculptures or paintings, as I know some sects do interpret this.

However, I think that's likely an unnecessarily strict interpretation, and that it is referring specifically to making things to worship, like idols. After all, God commanded the angels to be sculpted on the ark of the covenant.

I could also see debate regarding the part about God punishing those who don't follow this commandment-- namely, that it's a bit much to punish future kids for the wrongdoing of the parents. But this doesn't really seem to me to be a debate about the commandment itself, and more as to the morality of God's jealousy.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

It actually doesn't say why it's a bad thing. For instance if you take Hinduism to have idols you wouldn't say it is a bad thing does it? So the context would have to be based on te culture and its surrounding cultures to understand why...and even then it might not give that much of an answer to the why is idolatry is bad besides God just being a jealous God.

 

[George-ananda]

I think this has to be understood in terms of their times, not ours. The belief in a monotheistic God concept who insists on good moral behavior was an upgrade to the wide variety of different god and supernatural concepts in vogue at the time. So it's just saying not to entertain these other spirits and superstitious concepts of the time.

I'm sure the writers and the audience of that time were not familiar with things like Hinduism, Buddhism, and all the sophisticated choices and argumentation we know today.

Many people give the Old Testament more importance than it deserves. On RF, I can't help but notice atheists like to talk about it as it makes for an easy straw-man.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I think this has to be understood in terms of their times, not ours. The belief in a monotheistic God concept who insists on good moral behavior was an upgrade to the wide variety of different god and supernatural concepts in vogue at the time. So it's just saying not to entertain these other spirits and superstitious concepts of the time.

I'm sure the writers and the audience of that time were not familiar with things like Hinduism, Buddhism, and all the sophisticated choices and argumentation we know today.

Many people give the Old Testament more importance than it deserves. On RF, I can't help but notice atheists like to talk about it as it makes for an easy straw-man.

It (the OT) has had a profound influence on the world more so than any other text for better or worst.

 

[Falvlun]

It actually doesn't say why it's a bad thing. For instance if you take Hinduism to have idols you wouldn't say it is a bad thing does it? So the context would have to be based on te culture and its surrounding cultures to understand why...and even then it might not give that much of an answer to the why is idolatry is bad besides God just being a jealous God.

Yes, bad in the context of the existence of a jealous God. I was thinking "bad" not in a moral sense, but in a self-preservation sense. The visitation of "the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me" sounds like something you'd want to avoid, while the "steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments" sounds like something you'd want to have.

 

[rusra02]

I believe the point of this commandment is clearly stated. There is only one true God, Jehovah, and our worshipping a lifeless idol is offensive to him. As our Creator and Life-giver, Jehovah deserves our exclusive devotion, IMO. Thus, Jehovah commanded the Israelites to avoid all idols and idol worship.

 

[Man of Faith]

I believe that the point of the 2nd commandment as written in the Bible is to warn of false gods. If a god is inside a carved or man made image then it is a false god according the Bible.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Yes, bad in the context of the existence of a jealous God. I was thinking "bad" not in a moral sense, but in a self-preservation sense. The visitation of "the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me" sounds like something you'd want to avoid, while the "steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments" sounds like something you'd want to have.

It also I think reflects what made the way the Israelites worship differ from the surrounding cultures. That line "visit iniquity" points that if something as happens to you it's because you had sinned against God. When face with defeats took, famine, war, or corrupt politicians rather than turning to another God because the current God could not fulfill the need, it was easier to blame the issue the populace.

 

[Boyd]

So, the second commandment has been popping up on my radar a little of late. I'm reading a lot about Byzantine, and for any of the uninitiated, there were basically two 'sports' in Byzantium. Arguing about the Trinity, and arguing about the second commandment.
----------------
Obviously, anyone can post here, but I'm an atheist. I kinda already know the standard atheist opinion. So I'd ask that any atheists who do post try and offer something to the thread.

My interest is in what the point of this commandment is? Why is it important? What does it add, and is any benefit justifiable when compared to the harm it has caused?
This is the one I think of whenever someone says how central and moral the ten commandments are. I just don't get it (or there's nothing to get).

It really goes back to the culture of that time. This was a time in which monotheism was breaking through. Hebrews had been practicing various forms of polytheism for quite some time, and that can be something difficult to break out of.

It was also partly a need to separate themselves from the surrounding cultures.

If one forbids idols, the making of them, the worshipping of them, etc., it is a good way to strengthen monotheism, as well as separate ones own culture from those that are surrounding them.

 

[idav]

Exodus 20:4-6

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:8-10

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

============================================

Obviously, anyone can post here, but I'm an atheist. I kinda already know the standard atheist opinion. So I'd ask that any atheists who do post try and offer something to the thread.

My interest is in what the point of this commandment is? Why is it important? What does it add, and is any benefit justifiable when compared to the harm it has caused?
This is the one I think of whenever someone says how central and moral the ten commandments are. I just don't get it (or there's nothing to get).

To me it reads as two commandments. One being don't make images of anything in heaven, the second command is don't worship idols. I think the idea is to keep your heart towards god as spirit rather than idolizing material objects. The last command in the list go along the same lines saying not to covet, which is to keep us from attachments of the material. Says don't covet the neighbors goods or the neighbors wife, though I really like to think of "don't covet" as one command.

 

[Levite]

FWIW, not making idols is considered the third commandment in Judaism. The first being "I am YHVH your God," the second being, "You must have no other gods besides Me."

This is actually an important clarification because the third commandment is not merely about not worshipping foreign gods, which is certainly prohibited by the second commandment: it is also-- perhaps primarily-- about not trying to create images (statues, idols, icons, paintings, whatever) of God (our God, the one God, YHVH) while trying to worship Him.

For example, the Rabbis teach us that the sin of the Golden Calf was not that they were worshipping a foreign god (2nd commandment) but that they were trying to worship YHVH using an idol (3rd commandment).

The idea being that it is not enough merely to commit to worshipping the One God, one must comprehend some basic things about what it is to worship God, namely that He has no physicality, that He is entirely different and other than anything else in the created universe, and that we must never mistake any of the creations for the Creator, nor should we imagine that anything of our own making could capture God's essence-- since it was commonly believed among many polytheist peoples that the idol itself was not a god, but served to hold or channel the essence of the god during rituals.

Part of the essential nature of God is that He is the epitome of self-determination, paradox, and transcendence, as is alluded to in the names YHVH, which represents the verb "to be" conjugated simultaneously in all three tenses at once, and Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh ("I Will Be What I Will Be," which is to say, and only what I will, not what anyone or anything else wills-- a statement of freedom and self-determination): for this reason, it would be blasphemous to ever imagine that any portion of God could ever be concretized in a fixed representation.

This was something extraordinarily important to reinforce at that time, because most people were not highly educated, much less trained in sophisticated theology, and even if one tried to teach a doctrine that God was not this symbol, nor even a little contained in this symbol, or even more than vaguely represented by this symbol, it would be no time at all before people were worshipping the symbol instead of God-- whether the symbol was an idol or an astronomical phenomenon or a person. The two best examples of this are the incident of Nechushtan, the copper serpent (as related in 2 Kings 18), and Jesus.

So we have three related commandments as the first of the ten, which together help to ensure that we worship only God, and nothing and no one else besides God.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

FWIW, not making idols is considered the third commandment in Judaism. The first being "I am YHVH your God," the second being, "You must have no other gods besides Me."

This is actually an important clarification because the third commandment is not merely about not worshipping foreign gods, which is certainly prohibited by the second commandment: it is also-- perhaps primarily-- about not trying to create images (statues, idols, icons, paintings, whatever) of God (our God, the one God, YHVH) while trying to worship Him.

For example, the Rabbis teach us that the sin of the Golden Calf was not that they were worshipping a foreign god (2nd commandment) but that they were trying to worship YHVH using an idol (3rd commandment).

The idea being that it is not enough merely to commit to worshipping the One God, one must comprehend some basic things about what it is to worship God, namely that He has no physicality, that He is entirely different and other than anything else in the created universe, and that we must never mistake any of the creations for the Creator, nor should we imagine that anything of our own making could capture God's essence-- since it was commonly believed among many polytheist peoples that the idol itself was not a god, but served to hold or channel the essence of the god during rituals.

Part of the essential nature of God is that He is the epitome of self-determination, paradox, and transcendence, as is alluded to in the names YHVH, which represents the verb "to be" conjugated simultaneously in all three tenses at once, and Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh ("I Will Be What I Will Be," which is to say, and only what I will, not what anyone or anything else wills-- a statement of freedom and self-determination): for this reason, it would be blasphemous to ever imagine that any portion of God could ever be concretized in a fixed representation.

This was something extraordinarily important to reinforce at that time, because most people were not highly educated, much less trained in sophisticated theology, and even if one tried to teach a doctrine that God was not this symbol, nor even a little contained in this symbol, or even more than vaguely represented by this symbol, it would be no time at all before people were worshipping the symbol instead of God-- whether the symbol was an idol or an astronomical phenomenon or a person. The two best examples of this are the incident of Nechushtan, the copper serpent (as related in 2 Kings 18), and Jesus.

So we have three related commandments as the first of the ten, which together help to ensure that we worship only God, and nothing and no one else besides God.

This might be a loaded question but what is the Jewish view regarding Hinduism? I know some Christians consider it idolatry and there is reference to the noahide laws which are for non-Jews

 

[Levite]

This might be a loaded question but what is the Jewish view regarding Hinduism? I know some Christians consider it idolatry and there is reference to the noahide laws which are for non-Jews

Depends on who you ask. The majority view in Orthodoxy, insofar as I am aware, is that Hinduism is pure polytheistic idolatry. Many non-Orthodox thinkers see Vaishnavic and some other schools of Hindu thought as essentially a kind of diluted monotheism accompanied by improper ritual objects: in other words, unacceptable for Jews to practice, but not unacceptable for non-Jews.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Depends on who you ask. The majority view in Orthodoxy, insofar as I am aware, is that Hinduism is pure polytheistic idolatry. Many non-Orthodox thinkers see Vaishnavic and some other schools of Hindu thought as essentially a kind of diluted monotheism accompanied by improper ritual objects: in other words, unacceptable for Jews to practice, but not unacceptable for non-Jews.

Ah okay think you

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The first point of reference I would offer to look at is the context of the regional and cultural environment it was written at. Why did Biblical morality preach against idolatry to begin with? What do the other Biblical narratives say about it when they illustrate the phenomenon? What other trends are a result of idolatry?
In addition to understanding the Biblical context of the second commandment it might help comparing it to a point of reference in contemporary times. For example celebrity cults, sports club and sports club symbolism/merchandise. I'm sure there might be more examples who drive the point better.

Okay...I can see the sense in that (placing it in the context of it's own times and regional knowledge).
Whilst I read a LOT of history, pre-Christian history of the region doesn't really feature. It's an interesting take, and I'll follow it up.

I struggle with the contemporary comparitive though. If it was purely about non-monotheistic idols, for example, that would make more sense to me. But it seems to admonish against even images of God Himself?

Anyways, good point re: context. Cheers mate!

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What, exactly, is the kerfluffle about?

The basic interpretation seems to me to be "Don't make idols". The rest just seems to be an explanation of that further theme-- what an idol consists of, and why it's a really bad thing to do.

Sure...and from my point of view it's not a kerfuffle. But as mentioned, I've been reading about ancient Byzantium, and it was certainly a kerfuffle-causer. And in more modern times I could offer up Islamic protests against images of Mohammed.

Why is not making idols important? Particularly if those idols are of God Himself, and are designed to celebrate Him?

I could see a case being made regarding the first admonition against making any carvings or likenesses, as a prohibition against making any sort of art, like sculptures or paintings, as I know some sects do interpret this.

More than just sects. And historically it's caused a lot of argument and death.

However, I think that's likely an unnecessarily strict interpretation, and that it is referring specifically to making things to worship, like idols. After all, God commanded the angels to be sculpted on the ark of the covenant.

I could also see debate regarding the part about God punishing those who don't follow this commandment-- namely, that it's a bit much to punish future kids for the wrongdoing of the parents. But this doesn't really seem to me to be a debate about the commandment itself, and more as to the morality of God's jealousy.

I think this touches on something working away in my brain. I understand people who don't think the Bible should be interpreted literally. That makes sense to me. But can you really interpret this commandment allegorically?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think this has to be understood in terms of their times, not ours. The belief in a monotheistic God concept who insists on good moral behavior was an upgrade to the wide variety of different god and supernatural concepts in vogue at the time. So it's just saying not to entertain these other spirits and superstitious concepts of the time.

I'm sure the writers and the audience of that time were not familiar with things like Hinduism, Buddhism, and all the sophisticated choices and argumentation we know today.

Many people give the Old Testament more importance than it deserves. On RF, I can't help but notice atheists like to talk about it as it makes for an easy straw-man.

Well, I'm certainly not playing 'straw-man bashing'. My point is that from a literalist viewpoint, I'm not sure on the importance of not building images of God which celebrate God. From a non-literalist point of view, where is the wisdom or allegory in this commandment?

The atheist viewpoint is the simplest, and the least interesting to me. Hence my comment regarding it in the OP.
Atheists are obviously welcome, I'm just not interested in religion-bashing here.

 

[Sees]

I liked the video