The Sanatan Dharma the World's Oldest Religion?

[AxisMundi]

And they came from South East Asia.
That is where religion seems to originate. In fact the Aboriginal beliefs include reincarnation, deities, spirits/energies etc. that are not too far removed from Hindu concepts.

Their beliefs are animistic and shamanistic in nature.

Their beliefs include "The First One", an eel like entity that was the first form of life on the planet.

Does the Hindu religion?

 

[xkatz]

There is no single oldest religion. Rather there are many religions and beliefs (both "living" and "dead") that go back to time immemorial.

 

[AxisMundi]

I believe that Hinduism can be traced to the Neolithic. But the religions of the Australian Aborigines might go back to 40,000 bc. I think it is safe to say that Hinduism is the oldest living major tradition in use today that follows a book.
I think that when you are talking about beliefs during prehistory it's very hard to say what came first.

I'm sorry, but this whole "Nuh-uh, mines odler" is coming off as an argumentum ad antiquitatem argument fallacy.

The oldest religions are shamanistic and animistic in nature. This we know from archeaological finds from the cave paintings at Lascaux France to a recently discovered snake god statue in Africa dated at 75,000 years old.

Makes sence since our early ancestors lived intimatly close to nature herself.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I'm sorry, but this whole "Nuh-uh, mines odler" is coming off as an argumentum ad antiquitatem argument fallacy.

I am sorry you just have no Idea what you are talking about. The age of Hinduism is a huge issue for Hindu's. It turns out in the California 6th grade texts book, christian missionaries (maskerading as Hindus) had more input then Hindu scholars.

In the 19th century theories were put forward by colonialists, that Hinduism started in 1500 bc. This was do to the belief that the world being 6000 years old. That white people swept in from the north to bring Hinduism to the dumb brown people. Because heaven knows only whites could come up with a good idea.

Hindu's are not asking for our Myths to be taught in schools as science. We are not asking for our morals to be shown as superior in school text books. All we are asking is for the newest discoveries in Archeology and Genetics to be factored in in the history of our religion. Yet, this just seems to be to much for many Americans to except. So it's not Nuh nuh nuh my faith is older then yours. It's for Gods sake please look at the facts and quit using out dated racist ideas when you teach our children about their religion. Then when we complain we are called Hindu Fundamentalists by the old boys network of european orenatlists. Even the BBC has taken our side on this issue.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

The oldest religions are shamanistic and animistic in nature. This we know from archeaological finds from the cave paintings at Lascaux France to a recently discovered snake god statue in Africa dated at 75,000 years old.

I just don't see how this contradicted what I said in any way.

 

[Riverwolf]

Their beliefs are animistic and shamanistic in nature.

Their beliefs include "The First One", an eel like entity that was the first form of life on the planet.

Does the Hindu religion?

We have the Purusha, the Primal Person, who sacrificed himself to create the world.

However, there are many Creation myths in Hinduism; one of them might have an eel-like being.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well they're still trying to discover exactly how old the Egyptian belief system is. From what they've discovered so far it probably has it's roots in Sumerian Paganism like in Ur and Babylon, but it could be older. Evidence is coming to light that the Egyptians existed prior to the establishing of the dynastic system. The Egyptian religion either originated from Sumerian beliefs or orginated in southern Egypt (Nubia) and is much older then that of the Sumerians.

 

[Madhuri]

Their beliefs are animistic and shamanistic in nature.

Their beliefs include "The First One", an eel like entity that was the first form of life on the planet.

Does the Hindu religion?

You mean Goorialla, the Rainbow Serpent (a symbolic figure) who created everything in the world with its Dreaming.

The Aboriginals are not animistic. They believe that humans and animals have souls. Not rocks.

Animism plays a role in the history of HInduism. Beliefs in India have evolved over time. Remember that the aborigines migrated over 40,000 years ago.

 

[AxisMundi]

I am sorry you just have no Idea what you are talking about. The age of Hinduism is a huge issue for Hindu's. It turns out in the California 6th grade texts book, christian missionaries (maskerading as Hindus) had more input then Hindu scholars.

In the 19th century theories were put forward by colonialists, that Hinduism started in 1500 bc. This was do to the belief that the world being 6000 years old. That white people swept in from the north to bring Hinduism to the dumb brown people. Because heaven knows only whites could come up with a good idea.

Hindu's are not asking for our Myths to be taught in schools as science. We are not asking for our morals to be shown as superior in school text books. All we are asking is for the newest discoveries in Archeology and Genetics to be factored in in the history of our religion. Yet, this just seems to be to much for many Americans to except. So it's not Nuh nuh nuh my faith is older then yours. It's for Gods sake please look at the facts and quit using out dated racist ideas when you teach our children about their religion. Then when we complain we are called Hindu Fundamentalists by the old boys network of european orenatlists. Even the BBC has taken our side on this issue.

Please show where I suggested that your myths be taught as science in schools?

And please take a look at my listed religion. I am no Christian.

To make the unwarrented claim that your religion is older than everyone else's, especially when simple history shows this to be incorrect, is actually no better than most YECer claims.

 

[AxisMundi]

You mean Goorialla, the Rainbow Serpent (a symbolic figure) who created everything in the world with its Dreaming.

The Aboriginals are not animistic. They believe that humans and animals have souls. Not rocks.

Animism plays a role in the history of HInduism. Beliefs in India have evolved over time. Remember that the aborigines migrated over 40,000 years ago.

Speaking of unwarranted claims...

Firstly, the Aboriginals do indeed have sacred geological areas that, for them, contain spirits. The Aboriginals are indeed Animists.

Second, not all Animistic beliefs include rocks, geographical formations, meteorological phenomena, etc.

Thirdly, many religions, including yours and mine, have an Indo-European source as traced by paleontologists, linguists, and other related "-ists" and sciences.

Like everyone else's outside of the pure naturalistic religions, your religion is an evolution, not a basis.

Wiki has a small article on this, something I learned long ago when I began my informal study of religion...

Proto-Indo-European religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Madhuri]

Speaking of unwarranted claims...

Firstly, the Aboriginals do indeed have sacred geological areas that, for them, contain spirits. The Aboriginals are indeed Animists.

Second, not all Animistic beliefs include rocks, geographical formations, meteorological phenomena, etc.

Thirdly, many religions, including yours and mine, have an Indo-European source as traced by paleontologists, linguists, and other related "-ists" and sciences.

Like everyone else's outside of the pure naturalistic religions, your religion is an evolution, not a basis.

Wiki has a small article on this, something I learned long ago when I began my informal study of religion...

Proto-Indo-European religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are going ot have to convince me about the animism, considering that in animism everthing has a soul/spirit. This is an aboriginal belief:

"The Dreamtime are the stories of the beginning, of how mountains and rivers were formed as spirit ancestors emerged from the earth, bringing life and power to the land. The wanderings of the spirit ancestors created the valleys, rocks, lakes and all geological features of the Australian landscape, and were connections between groups and individuals, to the land and animals.

Over time, the powerful spirit ancestors grew tired, and retreated into their first natural state of eternal sleep. Some of the beings were reclaimed by the earth, others became rocks, watering holes, stars, animals or sacred objects. At each place where the spirits appeared, camped, or retreated back into the earth, they left behind a powerful force. The sacred power of the spirit ancestors was marked at those places - forever making them aboriginal sacred sites."

Can you please tell me how hte link you provided contradicts anything I have said thus far?

I did say that my religion is an evolution...you didn't see that?

 

[Madhuri]

To make the unwarrented claim that your religion is older than everyone else's, especially when simple history shows this to be incorrect, is actually no better than most YECer claims.

It is not an unwarranted claim. Please show me that it is?

 

[Madhuri]

Axis, you may find this interesting:

Early Humans Settled India Before Europe, Study Suggests

 

[Willamena]

I've often heard this claim repeated, which I admit, it likely is true. Hinduism is very old. Does anyone really have evidence Hinduism is the oldest? Like I've also seen Hindus claim that their religion influenced all the Pagan and Abrahamic traditions of the world as well. I can see the influence in Christianity, but not really Judaism and Islam, which I consider adharmic. Also I can sort of see it in Pagan circles as well, but to what extent did the Sanatan Dharma influence these religions? Like I can look at the concept of Ma'at in ancient Egypt and the brand of asceticism that existed among certain poets like Ptah-hotep and such, but does this mean that Hindus influenced ancient Egypt?

Until one has access to information of an older religion, one should retain skepticism.

 

[AxisMundi]

You are going ot have to convince me about the animism, considering that in animism everthing has a soul/spirit. This is an aboriginal belief:

"The Dreamtime are the stories of the beginning, of how mountains and rivers were formed as spirit ancestors emerged from the earth, bringing life and power to the land. The wanderings of the spirit ancestors created the valleys, rocks, lakes and all geological features of the Australian landscape, and were connections between groups and individuals, to the land and animals.

Over time, the powerful spirit ancestors grew tired, and retreated into their first natural state of eternal sleep. Some of the beings were reclaimed by the earth, others became rocks, watering holes, stars, animals or sacred objects. At each place where the spirits appeared, camped, or retreated back into the earth, they left behind a powerful force. The sacred power of the spirit ancestors was marked at those places - forever making them aboriginal sacred sites."

Can you please tell me how hte link you provided contradicts anything I have said thus far?

I did say that my religion is an evolution...you didn't see that?

Firstly, read what you copy/pasted. I couldn't have done better to prove my point.

Secondly, you have done nothing but attempt to make your religion the foundation for all others in your argumentum ad antiquitem.

It is not an unwarranted claim. Please show me that it is?

I have already, by pointing out that Hinduism isn't nearly as old as you claim and is no foundation for the Aboriginal beliefs (or any others for that matter) which are, as I have mentioned, dated to at least 65,000 years old.

If that is not your intention, your doing a very bad job since you sound no better than any YECer Christian trying to retroactivley make Jehovah the ultimate authority in the universe.

Peer reviewed sciences show that Hinduism is not much older than the Jewish religion. Sorry, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

Axis, you may find this interesting:

Early Humans Settled India Before Europe, Study Suggests

Get back to me after the peer review process has examined their hypothesis.

This is one area of their hypothesis I ahve a problem with...

"Modern humans arrived in Europe around 40,000 years ago, leaving behind cave paintings, jewelry, and evidence that they drove the Neandertals to extinction. "

Firstly, modern human beings did not drive the neandertals to extinction. We replaced them as their prime environment, heavy forests, shrunk after the last ice age. Secondly, some of the paintings in the Lescaux caves are dated at around 45,000 years old. Not 40,000. And some estimated place modern human beings in Europe as far back as 60,000 years.

Another hole I see is that it appears this hypothesis is based totally on stone tools and pigments. I did not see one mention of hard phsycial fossiled remains offered as evidence.

Also, the remains found on Flores are of modern huaman who had adapted to the small island over several generations. Their teeth, for example, the last part of a species to evolve changes, were still the same size as any modern human being. It is also surmized that they died out due to disease, not encroachment by other gumans. There are no wound marks on the bones, for example.

Many theories and hypthesis are made, few stand up to simple peer review and to be frank, it doesn't look like this one will either.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Please show where I suggested that your myths be taught as science in schools?

I never did think you said that. I was trying to explain why dates are so important to some Hindu's. To me it's not only a refection of white surprmacy but also important to be accurate to History. This is why I am always posting on this issue. ( and please I am not saying you are defending colonialism or anything like that.)

To make the unwarrented claim that your religion is older than everyone else's, especially when simple history shows this to be incorrect, is actually no better than most YECer claims.

I said the indigenous religions of Australia dates from 40,000 years ago. This is the religion that seems to be the oldest that we can trace back and have a good understanding due to it is a living religion. The Neolithic dates from around 10,000 bc to about 3500 bc. I said Hinduism is the oldest faith in use with a book. But it should be clear if you understand the dates of the Neolithic that I was saying Hinduism is not the oldest.

After reading my quote I think you you will see why your accusations just make no sense to me.

I believe that Hinduism can be traced to the Neolithic. But the religions of the Australian Aborigines might go back to 40,000 bc. I think it is safe to say that Hinduism is the oldest living major tradition in use today that follows a book.
I think that when you are talking about beliefs during prehistory it's very hard to say what came first.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think it's time I brought this up.

Those who claim that Hinduism is far older than 1500 years often cite the Vedic hymns that date back further, as well as geological, genetic, and archaeological evidence. However, specifics are never given.

What exactly are those specifics?

(I should point out that dates are actually not important to me. I couldn't care less how old Hinduism is.)

 

[Smoke]

To make the unwarrented claim that your religion is older than everyone else's, especially when simple history shows this to be incorrect, is actually no better than most YECer claims.

Yogi made no such claim, so what's the problem?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I think it's time I brought this up.

Those who claim that Hinduism is far older than 1500 years often cite the Vedic hymns that date back further, as well as geological, genetic, and archaeological evidence. However, specifics are never given.

What exactly are those specifics?

Good question

Here are just a few of the facts. There are many more.

The Rg Veda talks about a river system in north India that existed pre 1900 bc. In the case of the Saraswati river. If the Aryans came to India in 1500 bc why would they compose Hymns about a river that dried up 400 years before they got there.

The archeological finds of Mehrgarh of 6,500 bc shows a culture that is the same as Vedic Indians.

Krishna's post Vedic "Mythological City" Dwarka was discovered and dated at 1500 bc. It was destroyed by water just like it says in the Mahabhrata. Today it's in the sea.

The astronomical references in the Rg Veda are based on a Pleiades-krttika calender of 2500 bc with some of the early hymns taking about star constellations positions that did not happen after 4,600 bc.

This Information all comes from a short History of Hinduism Klaus K Klostemaier.

He also wrote the most used Text book on Hinduism in American Colleges today. A Survey of Hinduism. So it is a very good source.

 

[Madhuri]

Firstly, read what you copy/pasted. I couldn't have done better to prove my point.

I disagree. The ancestral spirits that go into the earth are not rock or tree or soil spirits. They are spirits that have gone to rest for eternity into the earth. There's a difference. If that is also animism, then fine. But most sources say that Australian Aboriginal religions are not animistic, although very similar.

Secondly, you have done nothing but attempt to make your religion the foundation for all others in your argumentum ad antiquitem.

I say that India is the foundation, not Hinduism. Especially not the Hinduism of today. That is why there are very interesting links between Aboriginal religious concepts and ancient Indian religious concepts.

You know, I really wonder how much you know about Hinduism.

I have already, by pointing out that Hinduism isn't nearly as old as you claim and is no foundation for the Aboriginal beliefs (or any others for that matter) which are, as I have mentioned, dated to at least 65,000 years old.

I don't think that you can know when the earliest religious activity was manifest in India. The oldest Vedas can only be traced back to about 11000BCE but religion in much older. Considering that the aboriginal people originated from South East Asia and were then isolated in Australia for so long it's very interesting to see some of the similarities to known Hindu concepts. I don't have proof that aboriginal beliefs originate from ancient Indian religions but it wouldn't surprise me.

If that is not your intention, your doing a very bad job since you sound no better than any YECer Christian trying to retroactivley make Jehovah the ultimate authority in the universe.

I think this is your own bias and expectation showing. I'm not a close minded idiot. I haven't made any absolute claims and I don't claim to know truth.

Peer reviewed sciences show that Hinduism is not much older than the Jewish religion. Sorry, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

Yes, Hinduism as we know it now is only about 5000 years old. I don't disagree. However, it is evolved from much older traditions and beliefs.

This is one area of their hypothesis I ahve a problem with...

That doesn't change the fact that it is accepted fact that the Aboriginal people originated from South East Asia over 45000 years ago and have interesting similarities in their religion to ancient Indian religious concepts.

By the way, did you know that the oldest boats found through archaeology date back to 7000-10,000 years ago? And yet it is accepted that the Aboriginal people could have only come to Australia by boat. It just shows that we can't rely on dates based only on what has so far been discovered as there is so much lost to us..or simply not yet found.