The Right to Bear Arms

[AzraelsTear]

I live in a very rural area. Some nights there may be only one law enforcement agent on duty in the whole county and he could be up to an hour away. If a large man decides to break in one night and rape my kids should I just spend the hour making him finger sandwiches and tea while I wait for the deputy to show up and save us? I think I would rather eliminate the threat and get back to sleep.

so why do people in iceland not have to worry about that then? or norway? and so on..

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Taxes are rather irrelevant to the topic, don't you think?

Since freedom is being mentioned, no. Freedom from the taxes imposed by King George are the whole reason we became our own nation.

so why do people in iceland not have to worry about that then? or norway? and so on..

It is too cold in those areas to go out and rape children in the night.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'll admit that it would be interesting to view how a well armed government and armless citizens vs. a well armed government and well armed citizenry stacked up side to side with all pros and cons included in order to find out which is really better and safer to live in overall.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's one of the best overall reasons to preserve gun ownership rights for private citizens. A lot of people tend to think it can never ever be their own government that can one day suddenly go rouge on its citizenry no matter where a persons happens to live and resides. It sounds conspiratorial on the surface and for the most part it may be the case, but it only takes that one particular person or persons to ascend to power to change a country's benevolence over to sheer madness and terror.

OTOH, I think it's a mistake to believe that being armed makes a person free.

I think there's real danger in the idea that the right to bear arms guarantees the other freedoms. IMO, it can create a situation where freedom can be infringed.

The things that actually guarantee freedom, e.g. active participation in a democratic government and vigilant oversight of elected officials, are a lot of work. I think the notion that merely owning a firearm or two can be a substitute for doing all the "heavy lifting" required for a functional democracy is rather dangerous. It can create a situation where a person's freedoms have been completely undermined, but because they've still got ahold of their guns, they don't bother to notice.

Remember the old expression "the price of democracy is eternal vigilance." That's all there is to it; there's no caveat on it that says "... unless you're packing heat."

Personally, I'm okay with people owning guns as long as they do it safely. Handguns... not so much, but I don't really want to go into that here. However, I don't think it's a good idea for a person to see his gun as some sort of guarantee that his rights are protected. That's a recipe for disaster.

 

[AzraelsTear]

It is too cold in those areas to go out and rape children in the night.

your joke aside, you do then understand that clearly it is a problem with your nation and not about people have or do not have weapons, do you not agree?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since freedom is being mentioned, no. Freedom from the taxes imposed by King George are the whole reason we became our own nation.

That's not what they said at the time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intolerable_Acts

Taxes were part of it, but of the five "intolerable" acts passed by the British Parliament, only one had anything to do with taxes.

It is too cold in those areas to go out and rape children in the night.

I don't think Iceland or Norway are any colder than Minnesota or Alaska.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Personally, I'm okay with people owning guns as long as they do it safely. Handguns... not so much...

I can keep a handgun on a locked box next to my bed and know my children are not going to get at it. I cannot fit a rifle or shotgun in the same box. It would have to be kept secured in my vauly which would take me longer to get at it if my home were broken into. If you can't get to your defense tool immediately it kind of defeats the purpose of having that tool, doesn't it?

 

[enchanted_one1975]

your joke aside, you do then understand that clearly it is a problem with your nation and not about people have or do not have weapons, do you not agree?

No, I do not agree. It has been shown that any area that is "disarmed" sees an immediate rise in violent crime.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can keep a handgun on a locked box next to my bed and know my children are not going to get at it. I cannot fit a rifle or shotgun in the same box. It would have to be kept secured in my vauly which would take me longer to get at it if my home were broken into. If you can't get to your defense tool immediately it kind of defeats the purpose of having that tool, doesn't it?

Sure - I can see the benefit in some situations. However, I also see significant harm associated with handguns specifically to the point that I see a good case for not making them widely available.

BTW - I'm pretty sure you can buy under-bed lockboxes for shotguns and rifles.

 

[AzraelsTear]

No, I do not agree. It has been shown that any area that is "disarmed" sees an immediate rise in violent crime.

i never heard any such things, you have polls to provide? that must be one of the silliest things i never heard, i am sorry, i have no idea how such a thing would be explained.

so why are norway, sweden, iceland, finland, holland and so on all safer then united states? why is canada safer then united states?

you seem to hold some very patriotic views and i think they are skewing your view here, sure you cant be objective on this? you do not think united states having very high crime rate have problems compared to these others nations? is it that hard to accept? facts and figures cant beat your 'faith' in your country?

 

[Mikael]

You are free while paying double the tax Americans do? Your definition of freedom varies greatly from mine. SOURCE

(dropping in again just for fun!)

We have more or less free medical care. Very old people are cared for by no charge. Education is free from pre-school to doctorate. We have the "all-peoples-right" wich is a fundamental law saying that everyone can walk all over the land and camp anywhere as long as you don´t destroy or disturb. We have quite high minimum-wages. I´m not saying it´s utopia, but I´m pretty darned free. So you keep your extra cash and buy a gun and sit there with your freedom!

With love

Mikael!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

so why are norway, sweden, iceland, finland, holland and so on all safer then united states? why is canada safer then united states?

I think it's interesting to note that Canada has long gun ownership rates that are on par with the US. Where the two countries differ is in handgun ownership; handguns in Canada are considered restricted weapons and are illegal for the general public. Only people with a demonstrable need (mainly police and security guards who work with armoured cars and money transfers) are allowed to own them.

 

[AzraelsTear]

(dropping in again just for fun!)

We have more or less free medical care. Very old people are cared for by no charge. Education is free from pre-school to doctorate. We have the "all-peoples-right" wich is a fundamental law saying that everyone can walk all over the land and camp anywhere as long as you don´t destroy or disturb. We have quite high minimum-wages. I´m not saying it´s utopia, but I´m pretty darned free. So you keep your extra cash and buy a gun and sit there with your freedom!

With love

Mikael!

i think you can drop i mikael, the culture they have tell them that weapons is needed and you are not free without it, they do not how it is to live in a civilized nation as yourself, which would indeed be defined as a utopia by them, by the way.

they are blinded by the propaganda they got feed from childhood to adult, your words are not worth anything, you ae a liar or delusional, they will never believe it, and if they would accept it there have to be a very special reason for it, perhaps america is giving your nation billions so you can survive and reality you are backwards and poor and your society useless... that is how they survive this world, making up what does not fit their worldview.

when i visited sweden i saw a wonderful society, as societies go, and compared to america a true utopia, but that is of course my own opinion, not valid for anything, so i am lucky that all polls says the same as me :bow:

 

[AzraelsTear]

I think it's interesting to note that Canada has long gun ownership rates that are on par with the US. Where the two countries differ is in handgun ownership; handguns in Canada are considered restricted weapons and are illegal for the general public. Only people with a demonstrable need (mainly police and security guards who work with armoured cars and money transfers) are allowed to own them.

yes i was afraid of mentioning canada as i would be forced to explain the difference, so thankyou for taking care of that for me. :yes:

 

[enchanted_one1975]

i never heard any such things, you have polls to provide?

Polls are skewed. Look at facts.

(dropping in again just for fun!)

We have more or less free medical care. Very old people are cared for by no charge. Education is free from pre-school to doctorate. We have the "all-peoples-right" wich is a fundamental law saying that everyone can walk all over the land and camp anywhere as long as you don´t destroy or disturb. We have quite high minimum-wages. I´m not saying it´s utopia, but I´m pretty darned free. So you keep your extra cash and buy a gun and sit there with your freedom!

With love

Mikael!

In the US it is illegal for a hospital to turn away someone in dire medical need. You pay into a Medicare system to get healthcare when you are old. You don't have to be "very old" to collect this benefit. We can camp on public lands all we wish. You cannot camp on someone else's private land though as you are infringing on that landowner's right. High minimum wages mean your economy is poor as it takes more money to support a person.

 

[Storm]

i never heard any such things, you have polls to provide? that must be one of the silliest things i never heard, i am sorry, i have no idea how such a thing would be explained.

so why are norway, sweden, iceland, finland, holland and so on all safer then united states? why is canada safer then united states?

you seem to hold some very patriotic views and i think they are skewing your view here, sure you cant be objective on this? you do not think united states having very high crime rate have problems compared to these others nations? is it that hard to accept? facts and figures cant beat your 'faith' in your country?

Well, I think you're onto something. And, though my religious convictions may be shining through here, I think it's due to lack of good public education and income disparity.

 

[AzraelsTear]

In the US it is illegal for a hospital to turn away someone in dire medical need. You pay into a Medicare system to get healthcare when you are old. You don't have to be "very old" to collect this benefit. We can camp on public lands all we wish. You cannot camp on someone else's private land though as you are infringing on that landowner's right. High minimum wages mean your economy is poor as it takes more money to support a person.

have you visited sweden and compared the living standard to american?
you may be shocked what the swedes call "poor" you would call middle class.. perhaps you should take a weeks vacation visit sweden or norway?

 

[enchanted_one1975]

have you visited sweden and compared the living standard to american?
you may be shocked what the swedes call "poor" you would call middle class.. perhaps you should take a weeks vacation visit sweden or norway?

And walk around unarmed? You must be insane! :areyoucra

 

[AzraelsTear]

Well, I think you're onto something. And, though my religious convictions may be shining through here, I think it's due to lack of good public education and income disparity.

well thankyou, but i also see a lost cause when i see one and this would turn into a bashing of his or her country simple by me pointing out that perhaps they got some problems.

i better just back off, but perhaps other americans with more open eyes would take it from here.

 

[Mikael]

Polls are skewed. Look at facts.

In the US it is illegal for a hospital to turn away someone in dire medical need. You pay into a Medicare system to get healthcare when you are old. You don't have to be "very old" to collect this benefit. We can camp on public lands all we wish. You cannot camp on someone else's private land though as you are infringing on that landowner's right. High minimum wages mean your economy is poor as it takes more money to support a person.

Well, we can camp on ALL land. Haha!

And please, "High minimum wages mean your economy is poor as it takes more money to support a person."? Be serious. I won´t take such a childish argument!

There ARE other systems. Hard to belive? Well, they aren´t hiding from you. Just look around the WORLD!