The Resurrection is it provable?

Subduction Zone · Nov 9, 2023

paarsurrey said:
Subduction Zone said:
I am not saying that you are right or wrong. But where is your evidence that there was no crucifixion? I am not a Christian, but I am aware of their evidence for one. If you cannot provide any then I will have to go with the Christians.

Friend @Clara Tea
Yes, you are right, I never said that Jesus was not put on the Cross, he was put on the Cross, nevertheless he was delivered from the Cross alive in near-dead position.

Regards

I never denied the crucifixion. What I deny is the rest of the story. And there is evidence that supports that. What you should be asking is where is the evidence for the resurrection because that is missing totally. All that there is that supports it is a religious book with the earliest reference to the crucifixion occurring ten years after the fact. Do you have any idea how fast myths can form? How quickly they can be accepted by some members of a society? Even when there is strong evidence against them? Have you not been following US politics at all?

shunyadragon · Nov 9, 2023

paarsurrey said:
Subduction Zone said:
I am not saying that you are right or wrong. But where is your evidence that there was no crucifixion? I am not a Christian, but I am aware of their evidence for one. If you cannot provide any then I will have to go with the Christians.

Friend @Clara Tea
Yes, you are right, I never said that Jesus was not put on the Cross, he was put on the Cross, nevertheless he was delivered from the Cross alive in near-dead position.

Regards

The above is an Islamic claim and not based on evidence at the time of Jesus life. The only thing we have is second hand reference tha tJesus was crucified under the authority of Pontius Pilate for rebellion against Rome..

Kenny · Nov 9, 2023

shunyadragon said:
Evidence of Jesus from non-Christian sources is third hand and none during the life of Jesus.

And first hand is not acceptable because they are believers in the resurrection
And those who knew the first hand don’t count because they just believed the lie….

Got it.

shunyadragon said:
No. the assumptions above reflect an unnecessary bias. No, it is not a matter of whether believers lie or not. Are believers who sincerely believe they saw mermaids and Sasquatch liers?

First, It is just a matter of fact there are not any first hand or any records of the life of Jesus during his life. Zip, Nada, negatory, nothing.

Second, ALL written records concerning the life and existence of Jesus mundane or miraculous date more than 50-200 years after the life of Jesus. The non-Christian references are third hand later references and not during the life of Jesus.

Third, like all ancient religions there are numerous miraculous and supernatural claims of events and people, Absolutely none can be historically verified regardless of which religion we consider in history,.

Fourth, even today miraculous and supernatural claims of events and people remain anecdotal and objectively unverifiable.

Fifth, many people over the history of humanity claim to see visions and some times claim they are real miracles and the supernatural. They are not lyers, it simply cannot documented what they saw is true or false. It is simply not objectively verifiable.

Reminds me of a thought of Paul where he said there are people who are having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.

shunyadragon · Nov 9, 2023

Kenny said:
And first hand is not acceptable because they are believers in the resurrection
And those who knew the first hand don’t count because they just believed the lie….

Got it.

No response to the five points. This is a repeat therefore:

No. the assumptions above reflect an unnecessary bias. No, it is not a matter of whether believers lie or not. Are believers who sincerely believe they saw mermaids and Sasquatch liers?

First, It is just a matter of fact there are not any first hand or any records of the life of Jesus during his life. Zip, Nada, negatory, nothing.

Second, ALL written records concerning the life and existence of Jesus mundane or miraculous date more than 50-200 years after the life of Jesus. The non-Christian references are third hand later references and not during the life of Jesus.

Third, like all ancient religions there are numerous miraculous and supernatural claims of events and people, Absolutely none can be historically verified regardless of which religion we consider in history,.

Fourth, even today miraculous and supernatural claims of events and people remain anecdotal and objectively unverifiable.

Fifth, many people over the history of humanity claim to see visions and some times claim they are real miracles and the supernatural. They are not lyers, it simply cannot documented what they saw is true or false. It is simply not objectively verifiable.

Kenny said:
Reminds me of a thought of Paul where he said there are people who are having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.

OK, ut I am not sure how this is relevant.

Kenny · Nov 9, 2023

shunyadragon said:
No response to the five points. This is a repeat therefore:

Is it really necessary?

shunyadragon said:
No. the assumptions above reflect an unnecessary bias. No, it is not a matter of whether believers lie or not. Are believers who sincerely believe they saw mermaids and Sasquatch liers?

No

shunyadragon said:
First, It is just a matter of fact there are not any first hand or any records of the life of Jesus during his life. Zip, Nada, negatory, nothing.

False

shunyadragon said:
Second, ALL written records concerning the life and existence of Jesus mundane or miraculous date more than 50-200 years after the life of Jesus. The non-Christian references are third hand later references and not during the life of Jesus.

Correct… so? does that mean that Helen Keller’s account of concentration camp was wrong because she wrote it 30 years after?

shunyadragon said:
Third, like all ancient religions there are numerous miraculous and supernatural claims of events and people, Absolutely none can be historically verified regardless of which religion we consider in history,.

We are not talking about all ancient religions.

shunyadragon said:
Fourth, even today miraculous and supernatural claims of events and people remain anecdotal and objectively unverifiable.

Opinion and false. When you had a tumor (verified) and then it is gone after prayer (verified) it is verifiable. When it happens often, it isn’t anecdotal

shunyadragon said:
Fifth, many people over the history of humanity claim to see visions and some times claim they are real miracles and the supernatural. They are not lyers, it simply cannot documented what they saw is true or false. It is simply not objectively verifiable.

True… but irrelevant.

SkepticThinker · Nov 9, 2023

Kenny said:
Is it really necessary?

No

So really, really believing something doesn't make it true, right?

Kenny said:
False

That's actually true.

Kenny said:
Correct… so? does that mean that Helen Keller’s account of concentration camp was wrong because she wrote it 30 years after?

First of all, that would be a firsthand account. What you have with the Bible is second, third, fourth (who really knows?) -hand accounts written by people who had heard the story from other people.

Secondly, her "account of concentration camp" would most likely be more accurate, when written during or immediately after her experience. Recounting an experience 30 years later most likely will result in some level of inaccuracy. That's just how brains work. Our memories are not exact copies of the events that took place. Every time you remember something, you're remembering your memory of an event, not the actual event itself. On top of that, our memories are filtered through our own perceptions and biases and can further be biased with time and the re-telling of the story to others, etc. Human beings are prone to a ton of cognitive and psychological errors.

Kenny said:
We are not talking about all ancient religions.

I think the point was that miraculous and supernatural claims of events from ancient times are not at verifiable.

Kenny said:
Opinion and false.

Then please point out anywhere that anyone has ever demonstrated that an actual miracle or supernatural event has occurred.

Kenny said:
When you had a tumor (verified) and then it is gone after prayer (verified) it is verifiable.

If your tumour goes away because you've prayed, what exactly do you think has been verified there? How have you demonstrated that the prayer was responsible for the disappearance of the tumour?

Kenny said:
When it happens often, it isn’t anecdotal

The plural of anecdote isn't data or evidence. It's still just a pile of anecdotes.

Kenny said:
True… but irrelevant.

Extremely relevant in a discussion about verifiability.

Subduction Zone · Nov 9, 2023

Kenny said:
False

Really? Name one first hand record of Jesus from his lifetime? The Gospels fail at that. The epistles of Peter do not appear to be written by him. And do they even mention the resurrection? James does not really say anything about the resurrection. Worse yet there were a whole slew of James's. It does not claim be written by James, bro to the Lord. And it too is likely to be pseudonymous.

So who is your eyewitness that made a record?

shunyadragon · Nov 9, 2023

Kenny said:
Is it really necessary?

Yes, because you made unsupported claims based on faith and belief alone.

Kenny said:
No

Did not answer, Please answer.
No. the assumptions above reflect an unnecessary bias. No, it is not a matter of whether believers lie or not. Are believers who sincerely believe they saw mermaids and Sasquatch liers?

IF not, neither are those that claimed they saw the resurrected Christ, Sincerely claiming they saw the resurrected Christ does not necessarily conclude it is true or not, nor are they liars.

Kenny said:
False

Please provide evidence of first hand evidence during the life of Jesus, There are no written records until over 50-200 years after the death of Jesus.

Kenny said:
Correct… so? does that mean that Helen Keller’s account of concentration camp was wrong because she wrote it 30 years after?

Incomplete. The evidence of thousands of survivors, prison guards and officers testifying in 1944 and later; Graves of the 100,000s of those that perished, and the cites of the Holocaust are documented all over Germany and Europe, Also, thousands of letters and documents

Kenny said:
We are not talking about all ancient religions.

Oh yes we are comparing claims of miracles and supernatural events that cannot be historically documented including Christianity and Judaism.

Kenny said:
Opinion and false. When you had a tumor (verified) and then it is gone after prayer (verified) it is verifiable. When it happens often, it isn’t anecdotal

Opinion? No it is not, tumors do also disappear without prayer. Many people pray to be healed and not healed . but die,

shunyadragon said:
Fifth, many people over the history of humanity claim to see visions and some times claim they are real miracles and the supernatural. They are not lyers, it simply cannot documented what they saw is true or false. It is simply not objectively verifiable.

Kenny said:
True… but irrelevant.

Very relevant, because your claims of Resurrection is the claim of an unsubstantiated miracle based on second or third hand testimony, and claims of miracles cannot be objectively verified,

danieldemol · Nov 10, 2023

Kenny said:
Correct… so? does that mean that Helen Keller’s account of concentration camp was wrong because she wrote it 30 years after?

Did she claim that a resurrected Jew from the concentration camp appeared to more than 500, and that resurrected Jewish saints from the concentration camp stormed the city afterwards?

Kenny · Nov 10, 2023

danieldemol said:
Did she claim that a resurrected Jew from the concentration camp appeared to more than 500, and that resurrected Jewish saints from the concentration camp stormed the city afterwards?

Wow... you are really out there. What are the prices of eggs in China?

Muffled · Nov 10, 2023

paarsurrey said:
Subduction Zone said:
I am not saying that you are right or wrong. But where is your evidence that there was no crucifixion? I am not a Christian, but I am aware of their evidence for one. If you cannot provide any then I will have to go with the Christians.

To prove the "resurrection" isn't for one necessary to prove that the person (alleged to have been resurrected/risen) had clinically died, in the first place, please, right??

Regards

I believe all that is needed is a dead body of Jesus and that is the case.

Muffled · Nov 10, 2023

paarsurrey said:
Subduction Zone said:
I am not saying that you are right or wrong. But where is your evidence that there was no crucifixion? I am not a Christian, but I am aware of their evidence for one. If you cannot provide any then I will have to go with the Christians.

Friend @Clara Tea
Yes, you are right, I never said that Jesus was not put on the Cross, he was put on the Cross, nevertheless he was delivered from the Cross alive in near-dead position.
So, when Jesus did not die a cursed death on the Cross, he never resurrected from the physically, materially and clinically dead, please, Right?

Regards

False, the Romans found Him to be already dead but stuck a spear through his heart just to be sure.

danieldemol · Nov 10, 2023

Kenny said:
Wow... you are really out there. What are the prices of eggs in China?

To the contrary, you are making a false equivalence between a person who did their best to be accurate given their memory failings and a people who were trying to sell Jesus as the son of a God and like any effective salesman appear to have been prepared to embellish to make the sale in my view.

The innacuraccy of the former pales in accordance to the innacuracy of the later in my view.

SkepticThinker · Nov 13, 2023

Kenny said:
Wow... you are really out there. What are the prices of eggs in China?

Sounds like he's actually read the Bible.

loverofhumanity · Nov 16, 2023

Christ being physically resurrected from the dead I believe is a belief indoctrinated by religious leaders to appease the egos of their followers so that Christians can say Christ is superior to all other Prophets and Messengers because He was physically resurrected. This I believe is an unfounded myth and superstition, not fact.

Were Christ’s body ever found and He does have one and it is somewhere, then it would be hidden, otherwise Christianity would completely collapse as its foundation is based upon a myth and superstition.

The true miracle of Christ was that He transformed souls. The real resurrection was the resurrection of His Faith after 3 days during which the disciples doubted His Divinity.

loverofhumanity · Nov 16, 2023

Christ being physically resurrected from the dead I believe is a belief indoctrinated by religious leaders to appease the egos of their followers so that Christians can say Christ is superior to all other Prophets and Messengers because He was physically resurrected. This I believe is an unfounded myth and superstition, not fact.

Were Christ’s body ever found and He does have one and it is somewhere, then it would be hidden, otherwise Christianity would completely collapse as its foundation is based upon a myth and superstition.

The true miracle of Christ was that He transformed souls. The real resurrection was the resurrection of His Faith after 3 days during which the disciples doubted His Divinity.

blü 2 · Nov 17, 2023

Riders said:
Is there any scientific proof or historic proof that Jesus was resurrected and crucified?

You're no doubt aware of the principle that extraordinary claims must be supported by extraordinarily good demonstration.

The evidence for the resurrection is of extremely low quality instead.

There is no eyewitness account.

There is no contemporary account.

There is no independent account.

It first gets a recorded mention in Paul, who like all the other NT authors never met an historical Jesus, but no relevant details except that Jesus 'appeared' to a crowd. There is no suggestion that Paul was one of that crowd, and no one else mentions such a thing.

Instead the earliest account with any detail to it (Mark) is written by a non-eyewitness non-independent author a highly non-contemporary 45 years or so after the purported event.

And is followed by three more accounts, in Matthew, Luke and John. And a sixth (undetailed) account right at the beginning of Acts.

What all six accounts have in common is that each of them contradicts the other five in significant ways.

You can very very safely and confidently proceed on the basis that this impossible-by-definition event didn't happen in history, only in story.

paarsurrey · Nov 17, 2023