Crucifixion (attachment to a cross, either by nailing or tying).
Resurrection (rising from the dead).
I think that you conflated crucifixion and resurrection.
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The Resurrection is it provable?
- Thread starter Riders
- Start date
Crucifixion (attachment to a cross, either by nailing or tying).
Resurrection (rising from the dead).
I think that you conflated crucifixion and resurrection.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Jesus did not die on the Cross, he was delivered from the Cross in near-dead position but very much alive, was laid in the tomb of Joseph Arimathea, treated in it by his friends and when he was somewhat recovered he came out of it, hence the empty tomb. He did not died to start with so there is no question of any sort of resurrection. Right?
Regards
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, @paarsurrey openly declares that there was no crucifixion. I guess that is a handy way of getting around the resurrection problem. Most Muslims do not believe that Jesus died from crucifixion. Most say that it never happened. I am not sure if he is Muslim. He may be Bahai' or some other offshoot of Islam. But he does seem to share that belief on Jesus:
Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
" @paarsurrey openly declares that there was no crucifixion."
My friend @Subduction Zone
I never claimed/said that, please. And there are:
65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross (the first one is given hereunder)
1. Why crucifixion?
Jews wanted him to be killed through crucifixion, so they can prove that Jesus is not a beloved of God, rather the curse of God is on him. Jews could have killed him easily as they were in hundreds of thousands in number and very strong. If killing should have been their desire, they could have done it easily. Just like they paid thirty pieces of silver to one of his disciples, if they would have paid him more, he might have done this service too. But they wanted him to be crucified so they can prove that he is not from God, rather he is an imposter and a fabricator. If he was from God, then God will definitely save him. May be that was the reason that Jesus was so reluctant to suffer on the cross.
Suggested readings and viewing
25% of Christians do not believe in resurrection and Queen’s former chaplain calls them non-Christians
BBC Documentary: Did Jesus Die On the Cross?
The Most Popular Video in the Muslim Times: Govt of India Documentary on Jesus in Kashmir!
The Best Collection to Introduce Islam to the Fellow Christians
Suggested Reading for the best understanding of personal religion in the 21st century
65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross
Right?
Strictly speaking there was no "resurrection" of Jesus, rather it was an " accusation" on Jesus by Paul to prove that (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah did not fulfill "Sign of Jonah" and ,therefore, was a false prophet in terms of Deuteronomy (13:5), one gets to know, please. Right?
Regards
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You need to find proper sources. Would you trust a Christian source about Muslims? Why would you expect any Christian to believe your Muslim source about Christians. Listing a bunch of dubious sources is not supporting your argument.
joelr
Well-Known Member
SZ is correct, you cannot source apologetics. There are plenty of historians who do not support the Gospel narratives. But they also consider the OT stories to be mythology and Moses to be a literary creation which Islam does not support.
I'm sorry... it was you that mentioned it and so I asked the question of when does reality become real. Just because there is a fictional or mythical story out the Independence of the Unites States doesn't translate that the reality of what happened isn't real.
Heaven won't be for everyone.
Exodus 18:11
Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
Psalm 130:7-8 O Israel, hope in the Lord; For with the Lord there is lovingkindness, And with Him is abundant redemption. And He will redeem Israel From all his iniquities.
Ps 16: 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
Isaiah 53:10
Many images such as the "red" sea (type and shadow of blood),
Genesis 14:18
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
As noted above...... wrong.
Job...
Again, what did Paul preach that wasn't from the TaNaKh?
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
They studied the TaNaKh that was written before the Hellenistic Age. Could it be that the other religions took it from the TaNaKh and from its oral traditions? I think so!
joelr
Well-Known Member
Countries win independence. That is a thing that happens. Gods, demigods and magic have never been demonstrated, only stories have been told . 2nd Century Christianity was as much Gnostic as sects closest to current orthadoxy so clearly people had no idea what the canon was going to be because there was no original story. The first official canon, the Marcionite canon is forever lost to us.
The Jewish people went through a period of religious syncretism and ALL of the new theology comes from Greek or Persian religions. Both cultures who occupied the Jewish nation. The vast probability here is that new myths were created this way. We even have presidence because all of the mystery religions underwent the same process, had a savior, baptism and so on and Christianity also looks to be a mystery religion.
So what is real? Probably syncretic blends of older stories creating new fiction. That is what's real. I'm sure you trust that is what happened with Islam and Hinduism and the updates Joe Smith received and the inspiration from God that the JW received. If it's true just in your case that is special pleading and even more unlikely. Christianity is actually much more syncretic than Islam. The early apologists had to say that Satan went back in time and made all the earlier Greek religions look just like Christianity to fool Christians into thinking Jesus was just a copy of Greek savior demigods.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Well you walked right into this one? You are quoting EXODUS???? That is the OT, Mesopotamian and Egyptian???
The Hellenistic influence happened during the 2nd Temple Period, late, during the Greek occupation?
In the OT Heaven was ONLY THE HOME OF GOD. Yahweh made one exception and took a mortal there but you get it.
In Hellenism souls were FROM heaven and through redemption and salvation they could return. NOT IN THE OT??? But suddenly, it's the theology of the NT (Hellenism).
Once agin, Sanders, Lambert and Wright -
"
Second Temple Judaism[edit]
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]
Redeemed souls, heaven as an afterlife and salvation are GREEK MYTHS. Gradually some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the RIGHTEOUS dead.
Not all dead? I thought this was easy enough to understand?
OT = no heaven for anyone
NT = Heaven for all righteous
huge difference. Greeks did it first, Hebrews copied it. It's mythology.
Yes the national God will redeem the nation?
Hellenism is about redeeming your individual soul, with a savior deity and getting to heaven
-
-the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.
-
-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.
-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.
The original Hebrew says "in Sheol" in Ps 16. This is completely in line with Jewish theology and has nothing to do with Greek/Persian myths.
Judaism already had Yom Kippur and Passover which were offerings for removing sin. They also believed the soul hung around Sheol after death. They already believed in souls as did the Egyptians and Mesopotamians and others. There is nothing here from Hellenism?
How does that relate to baptism?
Baptism has been widely compared with initiation into the Mystery cults. In many of the Mysteries purification through ritual bathing was required as a prerequisite for initiation.
It is interesting to note that the early Christian writer Tertullian (c. 160-225CE) would not have agreed with this appraisal. Not only did he believe that certain of the Mysteries practiced baptism, but also that they did so in hope of attaining forgiveness of sins and a new birth. This was so striking a similarity that it clearly demanded some form of explanation. Not surprisingly, demonic imitation was the culprit.
Wow so you think people didn't eat bread and wine before the NT? That isn't the Eucharist and you should know this.
Eucharist.
-Perhaps the clearest point of contact between the Mysteries and Christian Eucharist, and one of which the Church Fathers were painfully conscious, lay in a sacramental meal of bread or cakes and wine mixed with water in which initiates to the cult of Mithras participated.
They seek salvation from the debased material world through a spiritual ascent through the spheres. Mithras was expected to return to earth to lead his followers in a final cataclysmic battle between good and evil.
-The Mithraic sacramental meal almost certainly predates Christianity and cannot, therefore, be contingent upon it.
-It seems likely that there was dialogue, friendly or otherwise, between the groups which led to ideological growth and development in both; with Christianity increasingly appropriating the language and ritual of the Cults in what it eventually came to refer to as the μυστηριον (mystery) of the Eucharist.
It is beyond doubt that substantial similarities exist between the rituals of baptism and Eucharist and the various sacral meals and initiations practised within the Mystery religions. These similarities extend beyond the forms of the rituals themselves into the purpose, symbolism and function of the rituals.
Uh, no nothing above demonstrates (even a little) that Hellenistic religious ideas existed in Jewish theology. Reading through the changes that Hellenism made in all the religions confirms Christianity is mostly Greek in Theology. It's also very Persian. Revelation is a direct copy of the basic myth from Persia.[/QUOTE]
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joelr
Well-Known Member
Then you are delusional because none of that theology IS IN THE TaNaKh??????? That is just the Hebrew Bible? Acts is late fiction, after Christian writers had clearly copied Greek/Persian myths.
They DID ADMIT IT however? The apologists said Satan went back in time and that is why Jesus is just like Greek mythology? They didn't say "oh it's all from the TaNakh>?
It's already been admitted by ALL of the early 2nd century apologists. You yourself said people way back must know more because it's closer in time. Well, they said Jesus was just like all the other demigods?
Now we have 21st century apologists saying it's from the OT????????? What?
Christian apologist Justin Martyr (Dialogue 69):
When we say…Jesus Christ…was produced without sexual union, and was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call Sons of God. [In fact]…if anybody objects that [Jesus] was crucified, this is in common with the sons of Zeus (as you call them) who suffered, as previously listed [he listed Dionysus, Hercules, and Asclepius]. Since their fatal sufferings are all narrated as not similar but different, so his unique passion should not seem to be any worse.
Early apologists admited similarities and blamed them on Satan.
Even allowing for these caveats, it is clear that substantial ideological and ritual similarities did exist. In fact they were sufficiently obvious to the early Christian apologists that they felt obliged to offer some explanation for them, particularly since, to their embarrassment, it was clear that the Mystery rituals predated their own. The most common explanation, offered by many Christian apologists including Firmicus Maternus, Tertullian and Justin Martyr, was that demons had deliberately prefigured Christian sacraments in order to lead people astray. This explanation has sufficed for Christians over countless centuries, and indeed scholastic bias towards the assumed uniqueness, primacy and superiority of Christianity is one of the major methodological pitfalls encountered by those engaged in the comparative study of Christianity and the Mysteries. Many Christian scholars have been so certain that Christianity alone, of all the world’s religions, is an original and unique revelation that at times it seems that they might almost prefer the “demonic intervention” explanation to the unthinkable possibility that Christianity was influenced by its philosophical and theological environs. This paper, however, will seek to explore and quantify the similarities and differences and to offer a more prosaic explanation for them as far as it is possible to do so at such a remove and in the light of the methodological difficulties discussed above.
There is ZERO Greek, Persian or Roman myths in the Hebrew Bible.
What these is however is Mesopotamian, Babylonian and egyptian mythology.
Genesis is Mesopotamian.
Noah is the Epic of Gilamesh
Job is Babylonian
A Deity giving laws on stone is Egyptian
Most of Moses is Egyptian mythology
You tell me where these Hellenistic concepts appear in the Hebrew Bible? You cannot because they are not there.
We haven't even gotten into Persian theology yet.
The Hellenistic World: The World of Alexander the Great
Hellenistic thought is evident in the narratives which make up the books of the Bible as the Hebrew Scriptures were revised and canonized during the Second Temple Period (c.515 BCE-70 CE), the latter part of which was during the Hellenic Period of the region. The gospels and epistles of the Christian New Testament were written in Greek and draw on Greek philosophy and religion as, for example, in the first chapter of the Gospel of John in which the word becomes flesh, a Platonic concept.
the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.
-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.
-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.
-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme
-The temples and cult institutions of the various Hellenistic religions were repositories of the knowledge and techniques necessary for salvation and were the agents of the public worship of a particular deity. In addition, they served an important sociological role. In the new, cosmopolitan ideology that followed Alexander’s conquests, the old nationalistic and ethnic boundaries had broken down and the problem of religious and social identity had become acute.
-Most of these groups had regular meetings for a communal meal that served the dual role of sacramental participation (referring to the use of material elements believed to convey spiritual benefits among the members and with their deity)
-Hellenistic philosophy (Stoicism, Cynicism, Neo-Aristotelianism, Neo-Pythagoreanism, and Neoplatonism) provided key formulations for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophy, theology, and mysticism through the 18th century
- The basic forms of worship of both the Jewish and Christian communities were heavily influenced in their formative period by Hellenistic practices, and this remains fundamentally unchanged to the present time. Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.
-Other traditions even more radically reinterpreted the ancient figures. The cosmic or seasonal drama was interiorized to refer to the divine soul within man that must be liberated.
-Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure)
-and apocalyptic traditions (referring to a belief in the dramatic intervention of a god in human and natural events)
- Particularly noticeable was the success of a variety of prophets, magicians, and healers—e.g., John the Baptist, Jesus, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Alexander the Paphlagonian, and the cult of the healer Asclepius—whose preaching corresponded to the activities of various Greek and Roman philosophic missionaries
The early OT isn't considered historical by scholars anyways, it's a national myth.
Israel wiki
Modern archaeology has largely discarded the historicity of the narrative in the Torah concerning the patriarchs, The Exodus, and the conquest of Canaan described in the Book of Joshua, and instead views the narrative as constituting the Israelites' national myth.
Dever, William (2001). What Did the Biblical Writers Know, and When Did They Know It?. Eerdmans. pp. 98–99. ISBN 978-3-927120-37-2. “After a century of exhaustive investigation, all respectable archaeologists have given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob credible "historical figures" [...] archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus has similarly been discarded as a fruitless pursuit.”
rational experiences
Veteran Member
In science of earth man said its an ology. Men state it is my man's human intelligent advice.
First natural human position owning no argument whatsoever.
Human. Mutual. Equal. Population of as human family. Natural. Living exact origin. Equal life in and with nature.
One species. The human.
One species. Two of humans.
No argument allowed.
Then man's ologies. Themes subjects viewed earth products. Stories. Status Alchemy science. Of men.
No argument allowed.
Exact human observed behaviour. What is man doing wrong?
Answer...he's destroying natural presence.
Exact.
No life in the term I sacrifice gods body. No resurrection. No nasty human behaviour.
No argument. Family life.
Then you ask a human technology builder what did you build. And what destructive changes to natural did you cause.
Pretty basic stop false preaching coercion to hide behind scientific deceit.
Of human men who once proclaimed the practice of his science was isms and ists. Of Satan...the star mass earth gain.
Now do burning stars make earth indentations?
Yes. First the earth origin god body indented. Does it pop back into its origin body mass?
No.
Do burning masses make sin holes or sin holes as origin earth body sacrificed of God gone?
Yes.
Was anything put back or resurrected?
No. Exact science answer.
Do old scientists speak with a forked tongue?
Yes.
They spoke in satanic symbolism so no one would understand man's scientific causes.
So if a human is termed punished. Your minds evilly changed enjoyed their torture?
Yes. Stated.
Which is not scientific in any terms. It's civilisation evil men.
Phenomena. In science.
Today the science branch studying phenomena as a science say it's UFO only.
Therefore in the past its no different.
What was crucifixion symbolism in satanic terms?
Wood. It's garden nature body mass changed burning. Body taken back to coal and ash. Created creation moving into destruction. Was never its beginnings.
By what conditions?
My crucible melt converting of earths dusts. Crucible...crucifixion.
Because I set alight bushes....my bio life was painfully sacrificed too.
Pretty basic human advice why.
Okay God earth in science owns it body. Weren't you sacrificing it?
Yes.
Why no man is God. We aren't human sciences products.
So did you ressurrect from the tomb of god. Old body sacrificed gas mass held as stone dead body first. Not alight? Just entombed .... the spirit entombed.
Gases wrapped in stone?
Yes.
A scientists confession.
I also caused a held mass conversion tectonic earthquake.
I did it as I said earth quake tectonic is a plate. And also the carpenter.
Named carpenter so no one could argue that men of science caused it. Exact reason why.
Humans burnt sacrificed in the event thought life would end. As earths mass owning gases origin alight were burning above as below.
In the same incident. Only darkness voiding saved life. Holy space womb mother took away the burning. Was the direct human scientific teaching why.
Stopped the spirit gas leaving gods tomb stone body. By putting it back holding held in tomb. Took the cooling effect into the heavens.
Too late scenario gods mass body already gone. Crucified sacrificed. Holes left empty tomb as sin hole...sink holes. Pock marked earth body. Holes lots of them.
I say light alight is 12. Man in science. Only heavens owns that holy status.
Sin taken away of gods body...mass gone. Mass stopped burning. Life saved ...ice mass body saviour sacrificed in ice melt. Causes.
Left its ground mass as the saviour type ascended into heaven as a forming of new cloud mass. The same as Adam attack of man's life before.
Flooding by new cloud amassing saves life and DNA genesis. Cooling atmosphere seeing ice Cooling the atmosphere is now gone. What the saviour meant.
Flooding is proof we are nearing life's destruction. Advice of science of man says ice held should be cooling gases not our lifes water.
Why our life is taken by the ark building ground body sacrifice for new cloud amassing. Burning O gases above that open gas holes empty are seen.
Once a long time ago that burning attack was on mountains tips. As clouds descended onto his temples on the mount he had set on fire.
I saw it in vision why UFO ark melt hit Ararat.
Images seen after cooling prove life below land living got attacked. Our lifes water removed.
Humans said life leaving the ground before the heavens flooding. A human notified humanity was now saving humans bio life. As it was life's owned waters mass ice melt saviour leaving.
Advice. Direct advice only.
First natural human position owning no argument whatsoever.
Human. Mutual. Equal. Population of as human family. Natural. Living exact origin. Equal life in and with nature.
One species. The human.
One species. Two of humans.
No argument allowed.
Then man's ologies. Themes subjects viewed earth products. Stories. Status Alchemy science. Of men.
No argument allowed.
Exact human observed behaviour. What is man doing wrong?
Answer...he's destroying natural presence.
Exact.
No life in the term I sacrifice gods body. No resurrection. No nasty human behaviour.
No argument. Family life.
Then you ask a human technology builder what did you build. And what destructive changes to natural did you cause.
Pretty basic stop false preaching coercion to hide behind scientific deceit.
Of human men who once proclaimed the practice of his science was isms and ists. Of Satan...the star mass earth gain.
Now do burning stars make earth indentations?
Yes. First the earth origin god body indented. Does it pop back into its origin body mass?
No.
Do burning masses make sin holes or sin holes as origin earth body sacrificed of God gone?
Yes.
Was anything put back or resurrected?
No. Exact science answer.
Do old scientists speak with a forked tongue?
Yes.
They spoke in satanic symbolism so no one would understand man's scientific causes.
So if a human is termed punished. Your minds evilly changed enjoyed their torture?
Yes. Stated.
Which is not scientific in any terms. It's civilisation evil men.
Phenomena. In science.
Today the science branch studying phenomena as a science say it's UFO only.
Therefore in the past its no different.
What was crucifixion symbolism in satanic terms?
Wood. It's garden nature body mass changed burning. Body taken back to coal and ash. Created creation moving into destruction. Was never its beginnings.
By what conditions?
My crucible melt converting of earths dusts. Crucible...crucifixion.
Because I set alight bushes....my bio life was painfully sacrificed too.
Pretty basic human advice why.
Okay God earth in science owns it body. Weren't you sacrificing it?
Yes.
Why no man is God. We aren't human sciences products.
So did you ressurrect from the tomb of god. Old body sacrificed gas mass held as stone dead body first. Not alight? Just entombed .... the spirit entombed.
Gases wrapped in stone?
Yes.
A scientists confession.
I also caused a held mass conversion tectonic earthquake.
I did it as I said earth quake tectonic is a plate. And also the carpenter.
Named carpenter so no one could argue that men of science caused it. Exact reason why.
Humans burnt sacrificed in the event thought life would end. As earths mass owning gases origin alight were burning above as below.
In the same incident. Only darkness voiding saved life. Holy space womb mother took away the burning. Was the direct human scientific teaching why.
Stopped the spirit gas leaving gods tomb stone body. By putting it back holding held in tomb. Took the cooling effect into the heavens.
Too late scenario gods mass body already gone. Crucified sacrificed. Holes left empty tomb as sin hole...sink holes. Pock marked earth body. Holes lots of them.
I say light alight is 12. Man in science. Only heavens owns that holy status.
Sin taken away of gods body...mass gone. Mass stopped burning. Life saved ...ice mass body saviour sacrificed in ice melt. Causes.
Left its ground mass as the saviour type ascended into heaven as a forming of new cloud mass. The same as Adam attack of man's life before.
Flooding by new cloud amassing saves life and DNA genesis. Cooling atmosphere seeing ice Cooling the atmosphere is now gone. What the saviour meant.
Flooding is proof we are nearing life's destruction. Advice of science of man says ice held should be cooling gases not our lifes water.
Why our life is taken by the ark building ground body sacrifice for new cloud amassing. Burning O gases above that open gas holes empty are seen.
Once a long time ago that burning attack was on mountains tips. As clouds descended onto his temples on the mount he had set on fire.
I saw it in vision why UFO ark melt hit Ararat.
Images seen after cooling prove life below land living got attacked. Our lifes water removed.
Humans said life leaving the ground before the heavens flooding. A human notified humanity was now saving humans bio life. As it was life's owned waters mass ice melt saviour leaving.
Advice. Direct advice only.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Father's memory conscious advice. Men never listened to their owned warnings.
For example......when their brain after ice age was star fall inherited changed. Man knew dinosaur extinction was involved before. Yet he wasn't living then.
Brain changes you then get to hear voices. Old recorded human voices. That told men the origin life on earth was eradicated by his own pyramid machines.
Which archaeology proved instant snap freeze of parts inside of fusion. To be in fusion it was burning before. To stop artefact or machine parts disappearing it was instant frozen.
So they knew. Obviously being a man god before made them feel superior. When their brain changed.
To discuss Moses. The whole event occurred. So brain change was again inherited after. Why memory hadn't retained the full story.
As humans naked it said had sex so were garden evicted. The real story said... The human man baby from first parent sex became the theist scientist. Who by gods science changed the nature of life on earth.
Burnt the gardens body and theirs. They had to cover their bodies then to shield it from increased heat. Very embarrassed by the outcome.
Man hadn't listened not to touch or change the space womb law. Yet he did. Was attacked because of it. By placing his partnership at his side with his machine. Instead of just living as a father.
We are always naked. It's natural.
Same circumstance as proven with Jesus.
Father said philosophers gold was dust converting yet it's term transmutation. Removing a portion of gods earths origin from mass yet putting some of it back..not removing all of it. To gain gold that already naturally existed.
Wasnt in earths ground where the body was put back. It was the machine practiced science thesis only.
Why anyone would believe a human was putting earths stone mass back as a human in science is just greedy wishful thinKing.
So if you put the order of thesis in a correct order.
Earth body mass is one topic.
Heaven gas and fallout upper heavens causes were a totally separate subject.
When you realise the origin intent thesis was known. Brain mind prickled sacrificed changed thinking. Then you should realise why the story is misquoted.
For example......when their brain after ice age was star fall inherited changed. Man knew dinosaur extinction was involved before. Yet he wasn't living then.
Brain changes you then get to hear voices. Old recorded human voices. That told men the origin life on earth was eradicated by his own pyramid machines.
Which archaeology proved instant snap freeze of parts inside of fusion. To be in fusion it was burning before. To stop artefact or machine parts disappearing it was instant frozen.
So they knew. Obviously being a man god before made them feel superior. When their brain changed.
To discuss Moses. The whole event occurred. So brain change was again inherited after. Why memory hadn't retained the full story.
As humans naked it said had sex so were garden evicted. The real story said... The human man baby from first parent sex became the theist scientist. Who by gods science changed the nature of life on earth.
Burnt the gardens body and theirs. They had to cover their bodies then to shield it from increased heat. Very embarrassed by the outcome.
Man hadn't listened not to touch or change the space womb law. Yet he did. Was attacked because of it. By placing his partnership at his side with his machine. Instead of just living as a father.
We are always naked. It's natural.
Same circumstance as proven with Jesus.
Father said philosophers gold was dust converting yet it's term transmutation. Removing a portion of gods earths origin from mass yet putting some of it back..not removing all of it. To gain gold that already naturally existed.
Wasnt in earths ground where the body was put back. It was the machine practiced science thesis only.
Why anyone would believe a human was putting earths stone mass back as a human in science is just greedy wishful thinKing.
So if you put the order of thesis in a correct order.
Earth body mass is one topic.
Heaven gas and fallout upper heavens causes were a totally separate subject.
When you realise the origin intent thesis was known. Brain mind prickled sacrificed changed thinking. Then you should realise why the story is misquoted.
[/QUOTE]
Well, you obviously are intent on waving your hand and dismissing Jewish beliefs and where it came from....
somehow I don't think the Jewish people of faith hold onto your viewpoint.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Man said man of science is wrong it doesn't exist. Science.
As a man thinking writing numbers on a paper. Isn't the paper. Isn't the writing. Isn't the numbers. All he owned was his human self.
Updated his human realisation no man is God.
New realisation began as a new book written. New.
Said life had not returned by the coloured gases...many coloured mantle heavens cloak. But by God healed chosen women's body ovary.
Chosen as water returned oxygenated doesn't occur as one mass. It's distributed ice melt saviour. Saviour ice a stable state. Life isn't involved in nuclear said legal position.
So a woman could now conceive her baby son once lost in genetics as a healthy man again. And he was born conscious spiritual again. Natural.
Exact returned human bio life position.
Man who is healed a healer says I'm not special. Humans not healed quoted they are special. Then they claim he's natural. When he is natural not claiming I'm special.
All humans once were the healer human aware human being.
So Rome using same technology but claim I've implemented a better model. Stonehenge grounding. Begin DNA cell health removal. By reactive transmutation of dusts. Evil.
Then atmospheric cooling saving gases cooled now start actively being removed. One position UFO old attack had stopped fallout. Review why bio life had healed returned in human genetics.
So they re cause it. Life's sacrifice...as gods rock gases heaven owned were already sacrificed by suns nuclear mass origin attack the warning.
Meaning God status had saved itself yet transformed. Earth became a new mix between earths history and sun. Burning asteroid mass was direct sun mass only.
The exact warning.
No longer natural evolution. New testimonial confession.
So they actively built an effect of a four day tectonic plate shift....carpenter earthquake where everyone thought life was ending.
It stopped and life was saved. But notice fallout hadn't stopped. Jesus wasn't reborn to Mary again as said by status exact before science was repracticed.
Instead the second coming attack asteroid break up burning would return. So it had. 1000 years in the future is now our past. Attack again. UFO falling burning still active. Had been falling out throughout the eras depicted in paintings.
When no science was practiced. As proof science never owned it.
So it hadn't been stopped or saved. It was still active.
Ignored by ignorant men of science today.
As if first you placate a memory owned by just human men. Science and claim correctness. In memory it's first position. I believe I'm correct.
Knowing you were proven wrong second position. Why you don't accept that science had been outlawed. And that science man told science man you are wrong.
As a man thinking writing numbers on a paper. Isn't the paper. Isn't the writing. Isn't the numbers. All he owned was his human self.
Updated his human realisation no man is God.
New realisation began as a new book written. New.
Said life had not returned by the coloured gases...many coloured mantle heavens cloak. But by God healed chosen women's body ovary.
Chosen as water returned oxygenated doesn't occur as one mass. It's distributed ice melt saviour. Saviour ice a stable state. Life isn't involved in nuclear said legal position.
So a woman could now conceive her baby son once lost in genetics as a healthy man again. And he was born conscious spiritual again. Natural.
Exact returned human bio life position.
Man who is healed a healer says I'm not special. Humans not healed quoted they are special. Then they claim he's natural. When he is natural not claiming I'm special.
All humans once were the healer human aware human being.
So Rome using same technology but claim I've implemented a better model. Stonehenge grounding. Begin DNA cell health removal. By reactive transmutation of dusts. Evil.
Then atmospheric cooling saving gases cooled now start actively being removed. One position UFO old attack had stopped fallout. Review why bio life had healed returned in human genetics.
So they re cause it. Life's sacrifice...as gods rock gases heaven owned were already sacrificed by suns nuclear mass origin attack the warning.
Meaning God status had saved itself yet transformed. Earth became a new mix between earths history and sun. Burning asteroid mass was direct sun mass only.
The exact warning.
No longer natural evolution. New testimonial confession.
So they actively built an effect of a four day tectonic plate shift....carpenter earthquake where everyone thought life was ending.
It stopped and life was saved. But notice fallout hadn't stopped. Jesus wasn't reborn to Mary again as said by status exact before science was repracticed.
Instead the second coming attack asteroid break up burning would return. So it had. 1000 years in the future is now our past. Attack again. UFO falling burning still active. Had been falling out throughout the eras depicted in paintings.
When no science was practiced. As proof science never owned it.
So it hadn't been stopped or saved. It was still active.
Ignored by ignorant men of science today.
As if first you placate a memory owned by just human men. Science and claim correctness. In memory it's first position. I believe I'm correct.
Knowing you were proven wrong second position. Why you don't accept that science had been outlawed. And that science man told science man you are wrong.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Definitely not "hand waving". You are completely wrong there. I am sourcing my ideas with scholarship and we haven't got into Judaism yet. I am happy to discuss the origins of Jewish theology using Hebrew Bible professors and experts. Right now we are on the 2nd Temple Period and the Hellenistic influences to Christianity.
Well first Rabbi Tovia Singer has an entire youtube channel on how Christianity is Pagan (Greek, Roman) and is not Jewish at all. He has hundreds of videos.
Rabbi Tovia Singer -
Pagan Dualism molded and fueled Christian theology
Second I just found another scholar say the same about Hellenism:
“Christianity is not a Jewish religion, it’s a Hellenistic religion.”
“Jesus is of Jewish ethnicity but is telling the story of a Hellenistic deity”
Carl A. P. Ruck (born December 8, 1935, Bridgeport, Connecticut), is a professor in the Classical Studies department at Boston University. He received his B.A. at Yale University, his M.A. at the University of Michigan, and a Ph.D. at Harvard University.
But as to Jewish beliefs, scholarship is 100% that it's from Mesopotamian and some Egyptian/Babylonian sources. No historical scholar ever said otherwise? Now OF COURSE fundamentalists in any religion are going to say their theology is all new and all real. Islamic theologians say the same about their version. Historical scholars do not support Islam but they do not support any religion as anything other than mythology.
The Genesis creation narrative is the creation myth[a] of both Judaism and Christianity.
Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology. Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology
Genesis 1–11 as a whole is imbued with Mesopotamian myths.[
Genesis 2 has close parallels with a second Mesopotamian myth, the Atra-Hasis epic – parallels that in fact extend throughout Genesis 2–11, from the Creation to the Flood and its aftermath.
Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia
If you need an actual scholar
Francesca Stavrakopoulou PhD, professor of Hebrew Bible at Exeter U.
At 9:00 comments on the descriptions and words of Yahweh in the OT are no different than all the other Gods going back thousands of years prior. "Nothing in the Bible is original"
Garbage in... garbage out IMHO. But you are welcome to continue your reading/hearing diet.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Is science original?
No. If it were you'd only practice it once only. As each number would be exact and never used again.
Therefore you have to ask how many times has technology changed life on earth causing disasters.
And how many human visionaries reported known old science caused returns to earth as effects? Heard voice in the incident.
As I saw an origin dinosaur living vision with an upper earth heavens attack boring into an upper mountain plains strata. Black oil ooze seen. Extinction. Huge lightning strikes.
In the vision was also old transmitting images of human men in science in a signal that couldn't connect a view of their Incidence.
The vision story said the origin human man two brothers as the scientist had caused their human life destruction. The asteroid falling star ignited. Then a long time after came back and hit earth.
I've seen a whole earth body mass flood. No land whatsoever. Like watching tv. Why I believed that earth flooding is scientific involved.
So I did some research.
Science is the same incident.
No. If it were you'd only practice it once only. As each number would be exact and never used again.
Therefore you have to ask how many times has technology changed life on earth causing disasters.
And how many human visionaries reported known old science caused returns to earth as effects? Heard voice in the incident.
As I saw an origin dinosaur living vision with an upper earth heavens attack boring into an upper mountain plains strata. Black oil ooze seen. Extinction. Huge lightning strikes.
In the vision was also old transmitting images of human men in science in a signal that couldn't connect a view of their Incidence.
The vision story said the origin human man two brothers as the scientist had caused their human life destruction. The asteroid falling star ignited. Then a long time after came back and hit earth.
I've seen a whole earth body mass flood. No land whatsoever. Like watching tv. Why I believed that earth flooding is scientific involved.
So I did some research.
Science is the same incident.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I have no trouble ignoring smoke and mirrors. The problem is that you think me a liar and nothing could be further from the truth.
Muffled
Jesus in me
So then one can justify murder when the Bible says "thou shalt not murder?"