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The Religious Case Against Belief

blackout

Violet.
There are those who have no cistern to drink from, or are at least unaware of its presence.

Perhaps that's largely because they are indoctrinated to the BE-hive (mind)
relentlessly. Parents, Schools, Government, Church, Neighbors, Society at large...

Do this. Don't do that. You "should" this. You "shouldn't" that.
Act this way. Act that way.
BE good. BE compassionate. BE nice. BE obedient. BE dutiful. BE respectful.
BEhave BEhave BEhive!

Where is the PERSONAL discernment in all of this?

When are we encouraged to look deep within and find our own answers?
Yes. Just simply BE.
 
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Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I agree that one of her points in the sermon was that religion can overcome these schisms when they "seek a place to grow spiritually in an environment that does not shun doubt, agnosticism or atheism." Or "experience the freedom of belief." (which I assume she means non-belief as well). It comes to a point where the religious beliefs of say, you Storm, or Painted Wolf (I have to capitalize names even if they don't... I blame ocd), or most deists/pantheists/Quakers/Reform Jews/etc., do differ from my views, but not so much that it has any real world implications. Particularly when it comes to the big conflicts ranging from science education to human rights.

See, when she starts sayin' stuff like "every major religious tradition seeks to impart a sense of wonder, of mystery and awe, of humility, of openness to creation. Yet the belief systems associated with religions stop this cold. This is because belief systems start where our thinking stops. Once we think we have explained it all, once we think we have all the answers, we cut ourselves off from new ideas and new experience." I throw my hands up inthe air and wonder why can't more religions explain themselves so succinctly, eloquently and encouragingly?! She describes my secular godless awe at the universe with the same language in which she experiences hers.

"...dualistic thinking often subscribed to religion and science: on the one side is a set of fixed beliefs, resistant to the slightest modification; on the other is the open and free inquiry into the nature of the physical world."
Wonderful. I may have to plagarize that. ;)
I don't have any real response at this time, but I'm glad you enjoyed it!
 

blackout

Violet.
Yeah... Storm... BTW... I'll actually read the sermon tonight.

Right now my children are running amuck.

Not BEhiving at all! :D

*UV should have been born English.
Or Trans-all-vanian... or something...*
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Most of the mainstream religions seek to maintain power, and social control, by getting and keeping believers, who add to their financial power, and also political power. I was a member of a several churches for a number of years, and could tell no difference between them and any other institutions as far as the back-biting, infighting, and hypocrisy of it members.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
When it comes right down to it, I think religion seeks to bring out the best in us. It often fails, and what is "best" is certainly subject to cultural differences, but I do see a theme.

At least some early religions seem to have been more about appeasing the deities than bringing out the best in us.
 

Callida

New Member
If I cared to be religious, that is a religion I would subscribe to. Acceptance of new ideas and new experiences...that kind of openness, as noted in the sermon, isn't even present in science. Scientists can be just as set in theories that have already been published, that they won't accept new theories...they are unable to accept that what they felt they knew, or ideas that they came up with, might no longer be correct in every instance.
 

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
If I cared to be religious, that is a religion I would subscribe to. Acceptance of new ideas and new experiences...that kind of openness, as noted in the sermon, isn't even present in science. Scientists can be just as set in theories that have already been published, that they won't accept new theories...they are unable to accept that what they felt they knew, or ideas that they came up with, might no longer be correct in every instance.
Without going into the whole debate over what "religious" actually means, I'll just say that I'm not religious, I'm an atheist who doesn't participate in any religious institutions. But I disagree with the second part of your post. Science is inherently amendable to new information and changes based on new evidence. Rev. Kate Lore's (that's such a cool name btw!) description here is quite similar to how scientists look at the universe:

"...major religious tradition seeks to impart asense of wonder, of mystery and awe, of humility, of openness to creation. Yet the belief systems associated with religions stop this cold. This is because belief systems start where our thinking stops. Once we think we have explained it all, once we think we have all the answers, we cut ourselves off from new ideas and new experience."

Now you could say that a scientist's awe is metaphorically similar to a religious person's awe, but I'd argue that's because both are wired by the same evolutionary pressures- it's the methods of inquiry that are different. Science is inherently geared to questioning one's hypotheses and changing one's mind if sufficient empirical data warrants it; there's nothing dogmatic about science at all. That lack of dogma and insisting on empirical evidence are profound differences between scientific inquiry and (obviously there are exceptions; I have yet to meet a dogmatic Buddhist, Unitarian or deist for that matter) religions.
 

nonbeliever_92

Well-Known Member
If I cared to be religious, that is a religion I would subscribe to. Acceptance of new ideas and new experiences...that kind of openness, as noted in the sermon, isn't even present in science. Scientists can be just as set in theories that have already been published, that they won't accept new theories...they are unable to accept that what they felt they knew, or ideas that they came up with, might no longer be correct in every instance.


You don't have a strong grasp on what science is... sad.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
You don't have a strong grasp on what science is... sad.

In Callida's defence, there is a difference between how science is SUPPOSED to work and how it actually does. Scientists are human and don't like admitting they don't know something or might be wrong. Or researchers might develop an attachment and over-confidence in their theories because grant money and reputation is on the line. I'm reading a book now called "Climate Confusion" and it talks all about that. Scientists can develop emotional attachments to their own research because their livelihood is at stake. And at times, scientists are unwilling to state the original assumptions they made in order to have their theory work.

In that sense, she's right. While scientists SHOULD be open-minded and examine evidence objectively, sometimes that does not happen. Some of the best advances in science have been made by checking old accepted theories and examining the original assumptions and proving them to be untrue and replacing them with more accurate assumptions. Lots of examples of that in Physics.
 

Callida

New Member
Thank you ContentiusMaximus, that was the point I was trying to make. Should have been a bit more clear.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
There's a distinction to be drawn between the prejudices and dogmas of individual scientists and the scientific methods of inquiry that are designed to overcome those prejudices and dogmas.
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
In the first place, I want to thank Storm for the link to this sermon, which was quite interesting.

As for its impression on me, there is a sense in which I can agree with what the reverend has said- certainly in spirit. I think she is correct to observe that the meaning of the word "belief" is different for us than for many of our spiritual predecessors, and that Western religious thought has taken a peculiar path in the history of religion that is not without some serious problems. The words "faith" and "belief" are not synonymous (though related), but are often used as such in the Christian world.

I believe that there is an influential and impoverished version of Christian teaching regarding salvation that amounts to a "salvation by syllables" (to use a phrase I take from Marcus Borg). There was a time when I subscribed to such a view and I think it is toxic to spiritual growth.

That being said, from a Christian and Catholic perspective, I can not at all agree that belief is opposed to religion.

I am also not entirely clear in what sense she is opposed to "belief". Conviction in the existence of God? Surely, even as a Unitarian, she has certain if but vague and very "open" beliefs about a divine reality. Does belief translate into a toxin as soon as it becomes specific- as soon as it becomes " one in substance with the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God" ?

If there really is a God, can anything be really known about Him? Or is religion a mere toying with feel good imagery? Is theology the pursuit of right speech about God (which surely means knowing when not to speak) ? Or is it, in the end, all guess work or equally valid (equally meaningless) verbage?

Basic questions arise, such as "is God rational"? If our religion is based on faith in a divine reality, whether or not we believe that divine reality is accessible to reason or governed itself by reason has enormous consequences. Belief, and what we believe, is significant here.

Furthermore I am certain that the Unitarian community is in step with the best of secular humanism- but am I wrong in thinking that the theological girder they will give to humanistic aims will surely also be in step with notions such as "God is love", or the famous euology to love given by St. Paul in the Epistle to the Corinthians? What is the basis for the Unitarian belief that God, however defined, is at all relevant or good for human beings? Somewhere along the line, beliefs about God will reveal themselves as important for consideration- and false beliefs will surely be rejected even by the least, or even contra, dogmatic


The title of the sermon seems to challenge the idea that any religion has the right to the conviction that they understand the divine in a way to which they must be faithful, and that they bear a message of truth which is intended for the world. With this, I do not agree. While the world "evangelical" often has an (understandably) tarnished sound today, it literally means "good news". A foundational idea for Christianity is that it is empowered with a message that has universal value- that the salvation which is available for me is present for every one. This is why it is not, at its base, esoteric or mystical. It does not teach a Gnosticism for which salvation is an option for the privileged few, or an intellectual, theosophic adventure for the educated. At the level of salvation, is quite ordinary for the ordinary.

The Gospel- the evangelium- is built on belief. It is the same belief which animates the Christian virtues of faith, hope and charity. The belief that the agape love of God for man is revealed in the total self giving of Christ is the basis for living for human beings ourselves. We must move and live, as it were, from the fountain head of God's own love for us- but that living is made possible by the belief that this love exists for us, that it was demonstrated for us, and so we confess our faith through belief which, throughout history, has taken great expression in the Creeds and has been defined in the dogmas.

Without belief there is no Christian religion. It must be a belief animated by faith- loving trust in God and his self communication in Jesus Christ. The kind of belief which I am eager to see the Christian Church avoid is the kind which closes itself off to thought, and, living in the absence of thought, therefore goes without compassion and becomes cold. But belief as such can not be avoided without a general collapse of the Christian faith because there are for us a set of divinely revealed mysteries. There are many different and valid ways of trying to grasp these same mysteries in thought. The task of theology is to pursue of the objects of faith- our beliefs, the mysteries of the faith- and to try and explore these mysteries by the power of the human intellect. This is what leaves us open to affirm that God is Creator, while not being opposed to evolution if that is what science authentically discovers. This is the kind of theological diversity which I think is consonant with the Christian religion.

Belief, properly approached, opens up the mind for the exploration of the divine reality. A complete lack of belief leaves us in the abyss of God's mystery or, from another point of view, merely becomes an indiffernece to Him.

It is true, we hold to belief though faith- but faith is not opposed to thought. Though belief stands before thought and is affirmed on the grounds of faith, it becomes, as it were, like the moon shinning through the midnight forest. It lights our path and we pursue it on the horizon, but in the end we can never really "own" it. It reamins elusive, but in chasing it we leave behind a trail of cleared out brush, we make discernible pathways through the forest of thought.

This is anyways, how I tend to view "belief".
 
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blackout

Violet.
Ok, I finally did read the sermon as I promised Storm I would earlier in the thread.

Honestly, while her stories were interesting, I really did not feel that her main point
rested on anything more than HER OWN (religious) beliefs.
(or... her own beliefs about what religion is)

True religion is about being faithful to what we love, not about what we think. The key
religious questions you and I must answer are these: What do we love so much that we
are moved to tears? What gives us unspeakable joy? What gives us peace beyond
understanding? What do we love so much that it calls us to action? What do we care
about so deeply that we willingly, joyfully, devote our lives to it?

Here we get yet another commentary on "True Religion".
(or what "True Religion" is)
Us RFers know these quite well. ;)

The author/pastor has stated HER own belief here re. what "True Religion" is.
But why should this particular "take" on "true religion" stand more than any one else's?

Everything, in the end, comes back to a matter of PERSONAL belief.
What we believe personally about religion,
is what we believe religion IS. etc etc.

What do we love so much that we
are moved to tears? What gives us unspeakable joy? What gives us peace beyond
understanding? What do we love so much that it calls us to action? What do we care
about so deeply that we willingly, joyfully, devote our lives to it?



So than a life lived deeply from the font of one's own Well (Being)
is WHAT religion IS?

Isn't that rather, simply, life lived deeply? fully? bountifully?

This is not religion. Nor does it require religion.

There are many people who live like this
(athiests, non church goers, individualists)
who consider that "religion" has nothing to do with their lives.
And they like it that way, thank you.
Would the pastor then insist that they are religious
"in spite of themselves"?

What do YOU say religion is Storm?
and ... why bother to "call it" religion?

For me... the asthetic veneer I put on my ineffable Self...
(my "observer" self)
and moreso... my Belief System... ie.. the WAY in which I transform my life...
by suspending disBelief... and the asthetic/practice in which I do so...
I will sometimes call my "religion" for the sake of a conversation.

I used to be more emotional.
I used to be more "animated" in my "upliftedness".
It was fine at the time I guess.
But now I live with a more evenly keeled sense of Wonder.
It's more... refined... and has less and less to do with "other people",
and almost exclusively "my own path". my own thing.
And THIS is where I find depth of peace, joy, and action of transformation in mySelf.
Not that I don't care deeply about other people mind you.
But I am no activist... and not Unitarian in nature at all.
(beyond the notion that we are ALL ONE of the very same ALL)

What do we love so much that we
are moved to tears? What gives us unspeakable joy? What gives us peace beyond
understanding? What do we love so much that it calls us to action? What do we care
about so deeply that we willingly, joyfully, devote our lives to it?

I am devoted to BEing... BEcoming... my most empowered self.
It is what gives me depth of joy.
This is what calls me to action.

Is this my religion?

How is "being faithful to what we love", religion?
I mean... why even call it religion?

I really don't know.
It's funny, the longer I'm here at RF...
the more I wonder what the "R" word actually means.
 
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blackout

Violet.
There's a distinction to be drawn between the prejudices and dogmas of individual scientists and the scientific methods of inquiry that are designed to overcome those prejudices and dogmas.

Methods and Philosophies do not exist in a vaccum.

People have agendas.

People often put forth their own agendas in the name of an "institution".

It's something we should all be wary of, in EVERY walk of life.

IMO.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Read it.

Personally I think her arrogance is worse than the New Atheists. She attempts to speak for all religions while showing very little knowledge at all at the diversity of religious beliefs. Her complaints against belief itself are a nightmare of semantics.

Her arrogance in defining "true religion" is even worse.

I agree with UV,
Honestly, while her stories were interesting, I really did not feel that her main point
rested on anything more than HER OWN (religious) beliefs.
(or... her own beliefs about what religion is)
She openly admits the problems of adhering to beliefs irresponsibly and attempts to separate them from religion......because she says so.

It's unconvincing and every time someone tries to redefine millenia of various religious beliefs into nothing more than "love" they leave a very big question unanswered.

What's the point of having it all if you have to redefine the whole system to sell it?

No thanks.

Same product. Different packaging.
 
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