The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge?

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There is two parts to this post. As for the first part, there is a very short answer and very long one, both same thing but I have to think which route to go.

I decided I'm going to open thread about this post, because, although relevant, there will be a whole side discussion and opens can of worms (my post will).

 

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I opened the thread here: Uthman collection of Quran (or something else happened) | Religious Forums

 

[Fallen Prophet]

God can speak in a way humans cannot. He can put signs in his speech that would indicate it's from him and beyond capability of humans. I think this is rational, as we see there is ranks to eloquence, and not everyone is capable of the same eloquence.

Therefore if God speaks in a way beyond all humans and challenges all humans and Jinn, to bring something like it if they don't believe it's revealed by God, I believe this is a legitimate challenge.

I also believe some of the sermons and prayers and visitations taught by Ahlulbayt (a) are beyond normal humans, but still, I can see Quran is MUCH higher in eloquence, form, and speech.

So people can't even replicate some of the works of Ahlulbayt (a) and bring something similar to it, let alone the Quran which is signs from God in form of speech.

I believe it's legitimate challenge, bring something like it or akin to it. Another challenge it poses which is fair, you claim it's not guidance from God, then bring something more guiding than it.

Both challenges are fair from my perspective.

I believe that there are many Beings which are greater than humans - not just God.

Any of these Beings are capable of communicating with humans and helping them exceed normal limits.

A person being exceptional - or creating something exceptional - is not evidence of divine intervention.

That is my opinion.

 

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I believe that there are many Beings which are greater than humans - not just God.

Any of these Beings are capable of communicating with humans and helping them exceed normal limits.

A person being exceptional - or creating something exceptional - is not evidence of divine intervention.

That is my opinion.

You bring a good point, what if a higher mind other then God's chosen did this, the reply is: devils from Jinn or liars from Jinn aren't capable because they are of (1) low vibration (2) they are far away from understanding it's wisdom due to their blasphemy of the holy spirit.

 

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Also if a bunch of bad Jinn they were in on it, still, why not good jinn then showing it can be replicated get in on bringing something like it.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You bring a good point, what if a higher mind other then God's chosen did this, the reply is: devils from Jinn or liars from Jinn aren't capable because they are of (1) low vibration (2) they are far away from understanding it's wisdom due to their blasphemy of the holy spirit.

I don't think we should ever underestimate the capabilities of our enemies.

 

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I don't think we should ever underestimate the capabilities of our enemies.

I think you have a good point. But don't both sides (astrologers, sorcerers, Jinn, etc evil side and good side)claim to be connected to the divine? If so, the one truly connected should be able to bring the best writing and most eloquent, because the divine can?

So the Quran challenge kind of has layers.

If you are atheist, get some humans to bring the likes of it... since it's just works of humans in your view.
If you are a believer in God and his Prophets, then you should believe God would reveal the best writing and if it's not, then you can bring the like of it too or something better (something revealed by God).
If you are soothsayers type pagan religion, astrology, etc, then you claim your Angels are connected to the divine or are gods or whatever and you have connection to them or some people do - then bring a writing similar if it was evil forces that made the Quran from Jinn or humans.

If you can bring something better in guidance as well, I think that would be fair to say that challenge in Quran is refuted. If Quran allows you to bring something more in guidance, I think that's fair for people who believe in God. For those who don't, then at least bring something similar to it. For those who believe in God, either or, you can bring something like it or at least if you can't, bring something more guiding then it.

But if neither, then that's a problem.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I think you have a good point. But don't both sides (astrologers, sorcerers, Jinn, etc evil side and good side)claim to be connected to the divine? If so, the one truly connected should be able to bring the best writing and most eloquent, because the divine can?

So the Quran challenge kind of has layers.

If you are atheist, get some humans to bring the likes of it... since it's just works of humans in your view.
If you are a believer in God and his Prophets, then you should believe God would reveal the best writing and if it's not, then you can bring the like of it too or something better (something revealed by God).
If you are soothsayers type pagan religion, astrology, etc, then you claim your Angels are connected to the divine or are gods or whatever and you have connection to them or some people do - then bring a writing similar if it was evil forces that made the Quran from Jinn or humans.

If you can bring something better in guidance as well, I think that would be fair to say that challenge in Quran is refuted. If Quran allows you to bring something more in guidance, I think that's fair for people who believe in God. For those who don't, then at least bring something similar to it. For those who believe in God, either or, you can bring something like it or at least if you can't, bring something more guiding then it.

But if neither, then that's a problem.

The main issue is that "better" and "best" are completely subjective.

How would it be tested?

 

[John1.12]

God can speak in a way humans cannot. He can put signs in his speech that would indicate it's from him and beyond capability of humans. I think this is rational, as we see there is ranks to eloquence, and not everyone is capable of the same eloquence.

Therefore if God speaks in a way beyond all humans and challenges all humans and Jinn, to bring something like it if they don't believe it's revealed by God, I believe this is a legitimate challenge.

I also believe some of the sermons and prayers and visitations taught by Ahlulbayt (a) are beyond normal humans, but still, I can see Quran is MUCH higher in eloquence, form, and speech.

So people can't even replicate some of the works of Ahlulbayt (a) and bring something similar to it, let alone the Quran which is signs from God in form of speech.

I believe it's legitimate challenge, bring something like it or akin to it. Another challenge it poses which is fair, you claim it's not guidance from God, then bring something more guiding than it.

Both challenges are fair from my perspective.

The Quran Imo is from a demonic source. Many books are like this . I used to be into the ' occult/ new age ' and there we see many writings that have come about through ' spirits ' .

 

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The main issue is that "better" and "best" are completely subjective.

How would it be tested?

By studying them and comparing, we can analyze it. As stated before, if there is no objective measures to guidance or eloquence, the challenge fails. But if there is objective measures...

 

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The Quran Imo is from a demonic source. Many books are like this . I used to be into the ' occult/ new age ' and there we see many writings that have come about through ' spirits ' .

I was into that stuff to as a "spiritual deist" for some time, but I disagree what you said about Quran. So earlier posts with Fallen Prophet.

 

[Shakeel]

The Quran Imo is from a demonic source. Many books are like this . I used to be into the ' occult/ new age ' and there we see many writings that have come about through ' spirits ' .

This could be the most common argument of Christians when they say the Qur'an is from satan. Because satan misleads people, you can see a demon (I don't know if you can, but they say you can) and because apparently satan goes around pretending to be god and confusing people.

But the most interesting thing of it all is that they do not say the Qur'an was invented because they know that no human could have written it so they know there is an outer source for it.

 

[John1.12]

This could be the most common argument of Christians when they say the Qur'an is from satan. Because satan misleads people, you can see a demon (I don't know if you can, but they say you can) and because apparently satan goes around pretending to be god and confusing people.

But the most interesting thing of it all is that they do not say the Qur'an was invented because they know that no human could have written it so they know there is an outer source for it.

There's plenty of books , many are found within the occult / new age that are demonic by inspiration . Of course they usually say the message came from a ' spirit ' or ' spirit guide ' , even from an angel. Which would fit the experiences Muhammed had .

 

[John1.12]

I was into that stuff to as a "spiritual deist" for some time, but I disagree what you said about Quran. So earlier posts with Fallen Prophet.

Many people have had experiences with ' Spirits ' , ' angels ' and such. People often tell of both positive and negative experiences. Some have been inspired to write books through what they called ' Spirit Guides ' ect ect

 

[TrueBeliever37]

God can speak in a way humans cannot. He can put signs in his speech that would indicate it's from him and beyond capability of humans. I think this is rational, as we see there is ranks to eloquence, and not everyone is capable of the same eloquence.

Therefore if God speaks in a way beyond all humans and challenges all humans and Jinn, to bring something like it if they don't believe it's revealed by God, I believe this is a legitimate challenge.

I also believe some of the sermons and prayers and visitations taught by Ahlulbayt (a) are beyond normal humans, but still, I can see Quran is MUCH higher in eloquence, form, and speech.

So people can't even replicate some of the works of Ahlulbayt (a) and bring something similar to it, let alone the Quran which is signs from God in form of speech.

I believe it's legitimate challenge, bring something like it or akin to it. Another challenge it poses which is fair, you claim it's not guidance from God, then bring something more guiding than it.

Both challenges are fair from my perspective.

I have two questions.

1. The Quran's I have seen had to have words added in to make sense in certain verses. Why is that if it is considered so eloquent?

2. Why can't sunni's and shia's agree on what it means if it is so clear and eloqent? Who is right when there is disagreement on meaning?

 

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I have two questions.

1. The Quran's I have seen had to have words added in to make sense in certain verses. Why is that if it is considered so eloquent?

2. Why can't sunni's and shia's agree on what it means if it is so clear and eloqent? Who is right when there is disagreement on meaning?

You ask two very important questions and very relevant to both challenges. Do you want a short reply or detailed version of the short reply that elaborates in detail and proves the summary I would have stated in the short reply?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

By studying them and comparing, we can analyze it. As stated before, if there is no objective measures to guidance or eloquence, the challenge fails. But if there is objective measures...

What measures would you use?

I was into that stuff to as a "spiritual deist" for some time, but I disagree what you said about Quran. So earlier posts with Fallen Prophet.

What about my earlier posts?

 

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What measures would you use?

What about my earlier posts?

I have yet to create a topic about eloquence and objective measures. I have created a thread about eloquence in Quran and some objective statements about that, but I have only shown one example so far. As for guidance, that's a bit harder to explain. But You are right all this needs to be proven for the challenge to have legitimacy.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You ask two very important questions and very relevant to both challenges. Do you want a short reply or detailed version of the short reply that elaborates in detail and proves the summary I would have stated in the short reply?

Whatever you think it takes to answer the questions. If it is as eloquent as you say, do you think it should have to have additions to make readable and/or understandable sentences?

 

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Whatever you think it takes to answer the questions. If it is as eloquent as you say, it shouldn't have to have additions to make readable and/or understandable sentences.

Okay, maybe somewhere between. Sometimes I can't write too much, so let me think about how to write this.