1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    14,256
    Ratings:
    +12,091
    Religion:
    Atheist
    No. These guys

    upload_2021-6-18_9-7-14.png

    I hope you win. :)
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    14,256
    Ratings:
    +12,091
    Religion:
    Atheist
    This atheist has done nothing but ask for clarification and nobody has answered.

    I keep asking for the objective criteria by which the writings would be "evaluated" to see if the submitted "challenge" passes these criteria. And @Link keeps claiming these criteria exist, yet after DOZENS of times of asking, no answers are forthcoming.

    Not from you either.

    At some point, I can only conclude that you guys are talking out of your behinds and that there is no such criteria at all.

    Which would make the answer to the OP question that it is an "unfair"/dishonest and ridiculous "challenge".
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. alypius

    alypius Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2020
    Messages:
    254
    Ratings:
    +36
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Why should the eloquence of a text become the main means of evaluating whether it comes from God (as compared to clearer ways like miracles or prophecy or good character)?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    8,376
    Ratings:
    +7,620
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    Any proposal can range from rational and fact-based to totally religious-based dogma.

    Analysis? Well that depends on what is posted and who is responding. The more objective people will assess the claims and criticisms objectively and rationally while those motivated by religious fervor will do any number of things, like claim divine knowledge, make more unwarranted claims based on assumptions, deflect, ask misleading questions, show contempt for atheists, ignore the questions, etc.

    See what I mean, this comment here is absurd because you're accusing atheists of assumptions that are actually pointing out the assumption of the OP. You asked me once why I assume a God doesn't exist, and that twists the burden of proof, and ignores the logical default that claims are by default untrue until demonstrated true, and ignores that in logic and debate premises of an argument need to be true. You want to throw a lot of rules out the window as if we aren't smart or observant enough to see what little tricks you';re trying to get away with here. It only illustrates that you have no basis to defend what this discussion supposedly challenges the group to do.

    Atheists don't have to refute the unwarranted assumptions theists make.

    I propose theists demonstrate their claims are true in reality, and use facts, reason, and a coherent argument. Is there a problem with that?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    21,596
    Ratings:
    +5,630
    Religion:
    Islam
    then dont.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    21,596
    Ratings:
    +5,630
    Religion:
    Islam
    Is it the atheists style or your personal style that is an embarrassment to atheists in general to not address anything specifically because you have no clue of what the thesis is but make general statements pretending "I have said a master's statement"?

    Admit that you have no clue. Of course you won't. ;)
     
  7. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    8,376
    Ratings:
    +7,620
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    We can't. It's like theists can't demonstrate their gods exist outside of their imagination. Neither is a matter of choice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    8,376
    Ratings:
    +7,620
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    Still trying to thump your chest like the loudest ape.

    I'm not sure if you are aware of how foolish you appear with these passive aggressive tantrums. You either aren't self-aware, or you don't care.

    Plus, the irony of your comment about atheists not addressing specifics is amusing.
     
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    21,596
    Ratings:
    +5,630
    Religion:
    Islam
    Still, dont.
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    21,596
    Ratings:
    +5,630
    Religion:
    Islam
    You have no clue. So, you can say anything you like, still "you have no clue". Absolutely ignorant on the subject.

    You say atheists dont have to prove theists wrong, but why do you keep commenting then? Is it a need or a want?
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    21,596
    Ratings:
    +5,630
    Religion:
    Islam
    Why not?
     
  12. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    8,376
    Ratings:
    +7,620
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    Kinda like asking me not to be a female since I'm male.

    But by all means don't demonstrate your god exists outside of your imagination. Doesn't that set your mind at ease?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    21,596
    Ratings:
    +5,630
    Religion:
    Islam
    You said atheists dont need to prove anything.
     
  14. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    8,376
    Ratings:
    +7,620
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    The irony is that you and link don't seem to have any better knowledge. So the question is why are you two theists at all given the lack of knowledge and fact?

    Sport. It's like being a gunslinger shooting at the feet of a slower draw watching you dance.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    21,596
    Ratings:
    +5,630
    Religion:
    Islam
    what is Mukaththah? Do you know?
     
  16. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    8,376
    Ratings:
    +7,620
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    Feel free to explain what it means. And does it demonstrate that a God exists?

    Let's note that knowing details of any given religion doesn't help prove it's true objectively. I suggest that the more a person learns about the history of a religion the more that person understands it is humans creating the cultural framework, and no divinity is at work.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,756
    Ratings:
    +6,587
    Religion:
    Spiritual but not religious
    Are you familiar with Musaylimah or Tulayha?

    It sounds as though you are leaning on you/your audience's ignorance of Arabic to say we don't know of replications therefore there aren't any.

    There is a great response to the "bring a surah like it" challenge at quora;

    Is it true that no one has met the 'bring a chapter like it challenge' in the Quran? - Quora

    I'll copy it across since Quora occasionally has access issues.

    'Ah yes. The historical challenge of coming up with another Qur’an. My favourite.

    Yet another hollow challenge that supposedly proves that the Qur’an is a miracle.

    Some context before the answer: This challenge requires non-believers to produce something as eloquent as the Qur’an. If they fail, then that must indicate that the Qur’an is beyond human capabilities.

    First of all, this challenge assumes that the Qur’an is the perfect book. That there is no book that can be as powerful or better than it. Now Obviously this is not true. More than 7 billion in the world do not agree to that. The only people who see the miracle of the Qur’an are Muslims. — “And what is so special about that book to warrant a challenge?” some might ask.

    Well, it is a great piece of literature beyond doubt. The passages and chapters are constructed in a way that can mesmerize the reader. However, this is ONLY true if you read or hear the Qur’an in Arabic. After-all, the Qur’an is simply poetry at the end of the day, and this is the basis of this “challenge”. Reading it in any other language besides Arabic, the Qur’an loses its linguistic “magic”. The book simply turns into ramblings that become very boring to listen to. Even if someone is fulfilled by reading it in English for example, there is noway he can understand this “challenge”.

    So back to the challenge. The prophet challenged the people of Arabia to come up with something similar to the Qur’an. The people of Pre-Islamic Arabia were a poet society. They would talk, insult, compliment and even pray with each other using poetry.

    Here is where it gets interesting. Arab poets before Muhammad actually did have passages and chapters that were quite similar to the Qur’an. There were poets who came before the prophet who actually stand up to this challenge. This is something that many do not know or chose to deny, but the prophet’s work (i.e. the Qur’an) was influenced by poets before him. Muhammad was not the first Arab to come and make good poetry in the name of god or a religion.

    Therefore this challenge in itself is flawed. It assumes that the Qur’an is the best book out there while many clearly do not see it as such. It is great literature yes. It is high quality poetry that Arabs can hardly emulate. — But to say that it is impossible to replicate only shows the arrogance of the author.

    In my opinion, the most influential poet who Muhammad’s Qur’an was influenced by is:

    1. Umayya ibn Abi al-Salt: Umayya, a poet older than Muhammad, also preached about the Abrahamic faith. He actually wanted to be the prophet that Arabia was waiting for. He has a HUGE collection of work that can easily be related to many chapters found in the Qur’an. When I first read some of his work I was mind-blown. I always knew Muhammad wrote the Qur’an, but seeing that he actually was just the lucky poet who managed to make it work was a real eye opener. Umayya’s poetry was so good and preached such a similar message to the Qur’an that the prophet said this about him: “His poetry believed, yet his heart did not”. I mean if that is not enough proof that the prophet wanted all the glory to himself I don’t know what is.
    2. Another poet who influenced Muhammad’s Qur’an, the father of Arabic poetry, Imru' al-Qais was a Pre-Islamic poet who wrote many different types of poetry. Including plenty of Spiritual material that slightly differs from the Qur’an in that it has more of a romantic side to it. A very emotional, and personal type of poetry. The way the Qur’an describes scenery such as land, stars, and landscape are almost exactly copied from Imru' al-Qais’ work. However, he never claimed to be a prophet or a religion preacher, just a great poet.
    Then came Muhammad with the Qur’an. He completely revolutionized the game. His book was good, with a different touch and melody to it. His poetry was powerful and the people were amazed by it. Does that mean that it was god who sent it? Is the fact that this one poet was better than everyone before him evidence enough that this whole thing is from god? He was the best at something. He learned from those before him and surpassed them. What is so divine about that? He is the Shakespeare of Arabic poetry, the Mozart of Arabic poetry.

    • Also, many Arabs took on this challenge after the prophet died and wrote similar chapters to the Qur’an. You know what the Muslim Caliphate did? They declared war and killed them all as apostates. Musaylimah was one such person who actually copied the Qur’an in almost everything, but was killed. Another one who was murdered was Tulayha. It can be done, but clearly Muslims flip out because it is impossible to convince them it is similar...'
    Courtesy of Mohamad Al Assaad
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,756
    Ratings:
    +6,587
    Religion:
    Spiritual but not religious
    @Link
    This is how the Quran is alleged to have been compiled, do you disagree?

    'The process of compiling the Quran from these various written pages was done in four steps:

    1. Zayd bin Thabit verified each verse with his own memory.
    2. Umar ibn Al-Khattab verified each verse. Both men had memorized the entire Quran.
    3. Two reliable witnesses had to testify that the verses were written in the presence of the Prophet Muhammad (Swallallahu alayhi wasallam).
    4. The verified written verses were collated with those from the collections of other Companions.'

    Source: Islam » Compilation

    That two reliable witnesses where allegedly required suggests that there was no inherent divine property by which the verses could be measured and found to be divine or rejected.

    You might also find modern attempts at replicating a surah like it interesting.

    Reddit - islam_ahmadiyya - The "Bring a Surah Like It" Challenge - Abdullah Gondal Responds to a Muslim's Critique
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    9,687
    Ratings:
    +2,611
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    There is two parts to this post. As for the first part, there is a very short answer and very long one, both same thing but I have to think which route to go.
     
  20. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    9,687
    Ratings:
    +2,611
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    From what I understand, this post is not saying the challenge is wrong, but that it has been met. Okay, that is noted.
     
Loading...