The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge?

[Muffled]

A question like this should be asked with specific reference.

Which particular writing of Bahaullah?

So what are yousaying that the B man had both secular and religious writing?

 

[Muffled]

I wish I could affect an audible sigh on these forums, because it would just be so appropriate right now.

You have been railing on against me, in defense of the OP, within which THE FIRST FEW SENTENCES ARE THESE:
Why are you defending this, asking me to provide evidence for God's non-existence, when I have been saying all along that I simply do not support working from the assumption of God's existence which is EXACTLY what the OP does in its first three sentences?

This is just ridiculous. Why does anyone have to put up with shenanigans like these, I ask you?

I believe there is an appropriate saying: Put up or shut up.

The fact is that the record has God speaking so the record is that God exists. If you are going to say that it was man pretending to be God then you have to show that it is what men would likely say, After all God says His ways are not mans ways.

 

[Muffled]

God by definition can do anything at all.
It's why it is the ultimate cop-out for any question that would otherwise stump an intellectually honest person.

You can always fall back on "god dun it" - which he can by definition, since god is defined as "the entity that can do anything".

Which renders the entire thing meaningless, btw.

Can he make Jennifer Anniston materialize in my bedroom? I guess he can. Why hasn't he done so?

I bet suddenly the "why hasn't he done so" doesn't count to the same point you were trying to make, because it happens to not support your a priori assumed conclusion and you hold double standards.

I believe God has better things to do than present you with Jennifer Anniston and she is not so young these days. Now a little ability to teleport in time and place and I could be in her bedroom when she was young.

 

[firedragon]

So what are yousaying that the B man had both secular and religious writing?

Which book?

 

[Link]

Actually, let's compare Bab writings to Quran, and also Baha'allah's writings, let's make a thread about it and compare in detail.

 

[Link]

I have two questions.

1. The Quran's I have seen had to have words added in to make sense in certain verses. Why is that if it is considered so eloquent?

2. Why can't sunni's and shia's agree on what it means if it is so clear and eloqent? Who is right when there is disagreement on meaning?

The Quran and interpretation is a huge thing. I've decided to keep things short. The Devil and his minions never give up on distorting the wishes of a Prophet or Messenger or Leader appointed by God.

They propagate distorted understanding. The Quran is clear, but the problem is along with this distorted understanding, there is a curse from Gog and Magog and the devils, to keep people from perceiving Quran clearly as in the clear book. This is what itself states about itself.

In the past, the first wave of distortion is in what Quran says the Jews did when breaking their covenant, they distorted God's words away from their place. This is the first step. Then over time, when meaning is wrong, they can change words to suit the wrong meaning. But first distortion of holy books is always in taking things outside their place (not letting context of Quran and verses contextualize each other).

Now while in the past, distortions also took in the text severely, the Quran is protected as in text. But this makes Satan and his minions do even more effort to blind the Muslims.

The inward Satanic locks are confirmed by the outside propaganda. There is also apathy of those who can recite Quran properly to spread their knowledge properly. The result is the Quran is mistranslated SEVERELY and MISINTERPRETED EVEN WITH ARABIC NATIVE SPEAKERS.

The Quran is exalted and can guide humans towards the highest realities and keep them grounded at the same time.

The thing is while I say this, through Quran and words of Ahlulbayt (A) and believers who narrate their hadiths, and Ahlulbayt (A) light reality, the dark magic upon it can be defeated.

This witnessing of the Quran and the forces of evil trying to distort it and keep from understanding is one of the main reasons I'm Muslim.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I believe there is an appropriate saying: Put up or shut up.

The fact is that the record has God speaking so the record is that God exists. If you are going to say that it was man pretending to be God then you have to show that it is what men would likely say, After all God says His ways are not mans ways.

Not even close. I don't have to do anything... except not believe you. That I will do until evidence of an appropriate caliber is brought to the table. I simply can't believe this stuff. Can't. The evidence is not good. You say that "the record" has God speaking? So what?! That's nothing at all. For the longest time "the record" also had Zeus playing a large role in the goings-on of the world. Meaning that "the record" is garbage. Absolute garbage. And here you are, throwing your entire lot in with "the record." Banking on it as if it were going to save your life.

And it does not, at all, matter "what God says." I can't believe you don't accept this. Man wrote "what God says." That's what we DO have evidence for. Man wrote it. Not God. We don't have evidence that "God" said anything. If we did have sufficient evidence of this, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, believe me. Because I DO believe things for which there is sufficient demonstration and evidence. I believe them, and utilize the findings that have come from such evidence ALL THE TIME. "God" however? Haven't seen hide nor hair of the thing. Don't need it, doesn't play into my life, doesn't manifest in reality, doesn't do a damn thing that I can see/witness/find. There is absolutely no reason to believe in God. At least no good reason. All I have seen as reasons in my 40+ years on this Earth are psychological misgivings as "reasons."

 

[TrueBeliever37]

The Quran and interpretation is a huge thing. I've decided to keep things short. The Devil and his minions never give up on distorting the wishes of a Prophet or Messenger or Leader appointed by God.

They propagate distorted understanding. The Quran is clear, but the problem is along with this distorted understanding, there is a curse from Gog and Magog and the devils, to keep people from perceiving Quran clearly as in the clear book. This is what itself states about itself.

In the past, the first wave of distortion is in what Quran says the Jews did when breaking their covenant, they distorted God's words away from their place. This is the first step. Then over time, when meaning is wrong, they can change words to suit the wrong meaning. But first distortion of holy books is always in taking things outside their place (not letting context of Quran and verses contextualize each other).

Now while in the past, distortions also took in the text severely, the Quran is protected as in text. But this makes Satan and his minions do even more effort to blind the Muslims.

The inward Satanic locks are confirmed by the outside propaganda. There is also apathy of those who can recite Quran properly to spread their knowledge properly. The result is the Quran is mistranslated SEVERELY and MISINTERPRETED EVEN WITH ARABIC NATIVE SPEAKERS.

The Quran is exalted and can guide humans towards the highest realities and keep them grounded at the same time.

The thing is while I say this, through Quran and words of Ahlulbayt (A) and believers who narrate their hadiths, and Ahlulbayt (A) light reality, the dark magic upon it can be defeated.

This witnessing of the Quran and the forces of evil trying to distort it and keep from understanding is one of the main reasons I'm Muslim.

NO I am talking about how words have to be added to what the Quran says to make complete sentences, etc. Sometimes words have to be added to understand what the sentence means or is saying. Why?

You said something about native Arabic speakers not even being able to accurately translate it. How can native Arabic speakers not even be able to accurately translate it if it is so eloquent? Do you think some of what was originally written has been lost?

 

[Link]

NO I am talking about how words have to be added to what the Quran says to make complete sentences, etc.

How can native Arabic speakers not even be able to accurately translate it if it is so eloquent?

I was answering the Sunni-Shia divide despite Quran. You said why can't they agree upon it if it's so clear and eloquent and so I responded to that.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I was answering the Sunni-Shia divide despite Quran. You said why can't they agree upon it if it's so clear and eloquent and so I responded to that.

If you have time, I would be interested to know what twelvers believe and are looking for also.

 

[alypius]

Why not?

Why would God use the signs of miracles, prophecy and good character to build credibility of His revelation in the Old and New Testament, but then change thereafter leaving people confused?
Given that 10%-20% of humans suffer from different levels of dyslexia, why would God use the eloquence of a text show it comes from Him, when He would know that a section of any population would be excluded from directly being able to evaluate it?

 

[firedragon]

Why would God use the signs of miracles, prophecy and good character to build credibility of His revelation in the Old and New Testament, but then change thereafter leaving people confused?

But that's irrelevant isn't it? your question was "why would God use eloquence as a sign" or something to that nature and the topic is about the Qur'an.

Given that 10%-20% of humans suffer from different levels of dyslexia, why would God use the eloquence of a text show it comes from Him, when He would know that a section of any population would be excluded from directly being able to evaluate it?

I didnt know 1 out of 5 people in the world are suffering from Dyslexia. Really I didn't know.

Anyway, so what do you suggest God uses? Never have people with dyslexia? Lets say this is a world where no one has dyslexia, what argument would you bring up then? Also think about it. Now you dont have dyslexia. Do you understand the depth of the textual argument presented? No of course not. Its not your fault. Its just not your field. But that does not make it true or false.

Also, I can't see where it was said that "God used this as a sign". Maybe he did, maybe he didnt. Maybe it is just a research finding.

With all due respect, you must understand that this is also called "shifting another problem" which is a strawman. You dont have to agree with the post, but address it.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

God can speak in a way humans cannot. He can put signs in his speech that would indicate it's from him and beyond capability of humans. I think this is rational, as we see there is ranks to eloquence, and not everyone is capable of the same eloquence.

Therefore if God speaks in a way beyond all humans and challenges all humans and Jinn, to bring something like it if they don't believe it's revealed by God, I believe this is a legitimate challenge.

I also believe some of the sermons and prayers and visitations taught by Ahlulbayt (a) are beyond normal humans, but still, I can see Quran is MUCH higher in eloquence, form, and speech.

So people can't even replicate some of the works of Ahlulbayt (a) and bring something similar to it, let alone the Quran which is signs from God in form of speech.

I believe it's legitimate challenge, bring something like it or akin to it. Another challenge it poses which is fair, you claim it's not guidance from God, then bring something more guiding than it.

Both challenges are fair from my perspective.

If it’s far beyond human capacity we also wouldn’t be able to read it.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The ones who claim Quran is false or in serious doubt about it should in my view, Instead of just claiming it's false, let them prove it false. If you don't doubt God and Mohammad (s), no need to.

Is it great enough for a movie franchise or tv series?

 

[Link]

If it’s far beyond human capacity we also wouldn’t be able to read it.

We would have to able to read it to recognize it's a miracle but I agree that we wouldn't be able to fully appreciate it or understand it, which the Quran is like that. There is no limit to how much you can understand it, and the more deeper you go into it, it get's more clear and more bright and more wonders pop from it in our minds and hearts. This itself is a sign of it being from God.

 

[alypius]

Anyway, so what do you suggest God uses?

Why not use the means He used before in the Old and New Testament: miracles, prophecy and good character?

 

[firedragon]

Why not use the means He used before in the Old and New Testament: miracles, prophecy and good character?

OT and NT is not relevant. If you want to discuss that somehow I dont mind it but in its own thread.

 

[Link]

Why not use the means He used before in the Old and New Testament: miracles, prophecy and good character?

You bring a good point, the Quran has to give good reasons why miracles and performer of them in good character is not in public view currently because this was a consistent way of God per Quran as well, and this is a huge topic in itself. I believe the book that does that best currently is Quran, and next to it is the Bible including the Gospels.

In short, it's because the first generations denied miracles and opposed the guides performing them, as a result, the last Imam had to go hidden from public. There is a still a guide who can perform such signs that prove him and the religion and God and Quran, but he is not in public view, because God does not want to destroy cities and civilizations just yet, and is giving us a chance to prepare for these miracles to return.

If people accepted Prophets all the way to Jesus, either Jesus would not have to go away or Elijah would not have to be hidden although he did return with Jesus. But the guide was hidden and no miracles since Jesus to Mohammad (s) because former generations denied them and gave the Prophets (a) trouble, and so God didn't want to force destruction on the children of Israel so through both his wrath but as well as his forbearance and kindness, hid the guide till Mohammad (s) came out with miracles.

 

[Muffled]

Why would God use the signs of miracles, prophecy and good character to build credibility of His revelation in the Old and New Testament, but then change thereafter leaving people confused?
Given that 10%-20% of humans suffer from different levels of dyslexia, why would God use the eloquence of a text show it comes from Him, when He would know that a section of any population would be excluded from directly being able to evaluate it?

I believe He likes to give the intellectuals something to play with. The Bible numbering system is like that.

 

[alypius]

You bring a good point, the Quran has to give good reasons why miracles and performer of them in good character is not in public view currently because this was a consistent way of God per Quran as well, and this is a huge topic in itself. I believe the book that does that best currently is Quran, and next to it is the Bible including the Gospels.

Given that 10%-20% of humans suffer from different levels of dyslexia, why would God use the eloquence of a text show it comes from Him, when He would know that a section of any population would be excluded from directly being able to evaluate it?