The Qur'aan Cosmological Model: A delineation of the Origin, Evolution and End of the Universe

[kylixguru]

Oh, I'm by no means confusing belief, politeness and principle with gullibility, naivete and sanctimoniousness. Neither should you.

I've decided that you are worthy of being placed on my ignore list.
I think the others interested in having this thread remain free of your deliberate disturbance should do likewise.

 

[tumbleweed41]

MOD POST

Thread Reopened.

All posters are reminded to stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.
Keep both Rules 1 and 11 in mind when posting.


1. Personal comments about Members and Staff
Personal attacks, and/or name-calling are strictly prohibited on the forums. Speaking or referring to a member in the third person, ie "calling them out" will also be considered a personal attack. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff.

11. Subverting/Undermining the forum Mission
The purpose of the forum is to provide a civil, informative, respectful and welcoming environment where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate. Posts while debating and discussing different beliefs must be done in the spirit of productivity. If a person's main goal is to undermine a set of beliefs by creating unproductive posts/threads/responses to others, etc, then they will be edited or removed and subject to moderation.
​

 

[the_thinker]

Where is everyone?? okay let me try and arouse the members

will contraction of the universe cause gravity to reverse?

 

[Lady B]

Where is everyone?? okay let me try and arouse the members

will contraction of the universe cause gravity to reverse?

Al-Amyr is away for a while, so the Thread is on hold kinda....Wish He would come back soon

 

[gnostic]

I am just running ahead of the Qur'aan Cosmological presentation to show what the Qur'aan says on the matter of the Big Rip.

Qur'aan Chapter: The Ripping Apart 84:1-6
When Space would have become Ripped Apart
hearkening to its Lord as it is bound to do!
And when the Earth (matter) is spread out
and casts forth whatever is in it, and becomes utterly void
hearkening to its Lord as it is bound to do!
Then verily, O man, thou art labouring unto thy Lord laboriously, and thou shalt encounter Him.

That is but a poor translation of what the original contains. Here is another verse.

Qur'aan Chapter: The Reality 69:15-27
​

On that day shall the great event come to pass,
And Space would have been Ripped Apart, for that day it shall be frail,
And the angels shall be on the sides thereof; and on that day eight shall bear the throne of thy lord.
On that day you shall be exposed to view-- no secret of yours shall remain hidden.
Then as for him who is given his book in his right hand, he will say: Lo! read my book:
Surely I knew that I shall meet my account.
So he shall be in a life of pleasure,
In a lofty garden,
The fruits of which are near at hand:
Eat and drink pleasantly for what you did beforehand in the days gone by.
And as for him who is given his book in his left hand he shall say: O would that my book had never been given me:
And I had not known what my account was:
O would that it had made an end (of me):


So again according to The Qur'aan Cosmological Model after the run away expansion shall come the Great Ripping Apart (Big Rip). But at a point after that ALLAAH shall cease it and bring it back into submission.

Soon I shall go into the great details... inshaa allaah [if allaah had willed (the time.)]

I don't think this SPACE has anything to do with the universe. Those quotes have to do with the Earth and the Earth's sky, not the universe.

In several translations, they don't use the word SPACE. What's your source for these translation that you've used?

With 84:1, the translations Pickthall and Shakir used the word HEAVEN, while Yusuf Ali and Sahih International used SKY. So the HEAVEN referred to the SKY, not to the UNIVERSE. Here for 84:1:

When the heaven is split asunder

When the heaven bursts asunder,

When the sky is rent asunder,

When the sky has split [open]

With verse 69:16, only one translation (Yusuf Ali) used the word SKY, but I also think the use of the word HEAVEN also referred to the SKY, and not to the UNIVERSE:

And the sky will be rent asunder, for it will that Day be flimsy,

Do not confuse sky and the universe as being one and the same. SKY is what we can only see on EARTH, from our perspective at ground level, and what we see is only a very tiny fraction of the universe.

Beside I don't buy your interpretation of these verses you've quoted, as being the Big Rip. Do you want to know why?

Because I've seen those same quotes being used before, by other Muslim members here @ RF. They have used them (those same quotes) to define the Big Bang, not the Big Rip. The Big Bang and Big Rip are not the same things.

Who is right? You? Or them?

Personally, I think you all wrong with interpretations.

Anyway, those quotes only mean separating the sky (or heaven) from Earth, or the creation of the sky or firmament. Hardly original concept, and certainly not scientific by any mean.

In the Bible (meaning Genesis 1:6-8), separate the "waters from above" (sky) from the "water below" (sea).

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Older than the Bible's account, are the Babylonian versions, found in the Enuma Elish, where the god Ea (Sumerian Enki) separate the sky from the Earth.

Older still, is the Sumerian poem of Gilgames (Gilgamesh or Bilagames) and the Netherworld. In the prologue to the poem, there is brief description to the creation.

...after the heaven had been parted from earth,
after the earth had been separated from heaven,
after the name of mankind had been establish -
then, after the god An had taken the heavens for himself,
after the god Enlil had taken the earth for himself,
and after he (Enki) had presented the Netherworld to the goddess Ereshkigal as a dowry-gifts...

And then there is the Egyptian cosmology or creation myth, where the god Shu separate his daughter Nut (sky or heaven) from his son Geb (Earth), by holding Nut up, while Geb is in the reclining position:

The Islamic separating of the earth from the sky is not original concept, and it had nothing to do with the universe, no matter how you read those verses.

According to the Big Bang cosmology, the Earth was around when the expansion began, and the Earth would be long gone should the Big Rip occurred.

The Earth has only existed in the last 4.6 billion years, but the initial expansion (Big Bang) occurred over 13 billion years ago. Even our Sun didn't exist in the early stage of the universe.

And the Earth won't be around for the Big Rip, Big Crunch or Big Freeze, because the Earth would be swallowed up by the Sun, when the Sun turned into red giant star.

 

[al-amiyr]

I don't think this SPACE has anything to do with the universe. Those quotes have to do with the Earth and the Earth's sky, not the universe.

In several translations, they don't use the word SPACE. What's your source for these translation that you've used?

With 84:1, the translations Pickthall and Shakir used the word HEAVEN, while Yusuf Ali and Sahih International used SKY. So the HEAVEN referred to the SKY, not to the UNIVERSE. Here for 84:1:






With verse 69:16, only one translation (Yusuf Ali) used the word SKY, but I also think the use of the word HEAVEN also referred to the SKY, and not to the UNIVERSE:



Do not confuse sky and the universe as being one and the same. SKY is what we can only see on EARTH, from our perspective at ground level, and what we see is only a very tiny fraction of the universe.

Beside I don't buy your interpretation of these verses you've quoted, as being the Big Rip. Do you want to know why?

Because I've seen those same quotes being used before, by other Muslim members here @ RF. They have used them (those same quotes) to define the Big Bang, not the Big Rip. The Big Bang and Big Rip are not the same things.

Who is right? You? Or them?

Personally, I think you all wrong with interpretations.

Anyway, those quotes only mean separating the sky (or heaven) from Earth, or the creation of the sky or firmament. Hardly original concept, and certainly not scientific by any mean.

In the Bible (meaning Genesis 1:6-8), separate the "waters from above" (sky) from the "water below" (sea).


Older than the Bible's account, are the Babylonian versions, found in the Enuma Elish, where the god Ea (Sumerian Enki) separate the sky from the Earth.

Older still, is the Sumerian poem of Gilgames (Gilgamesh or Bilagames) and the Netherworld. In the prologue to the poem, there is brief description to the creation.



And then there is the Egyptian cosmology or creation myth, where the god Shu separate his daughter Nut (sky or heaven) from his son Geb (Earth), by holding Nut up, while Geb is in the reclining position:

The Islamic separating of the earth from the sky is not original concept, and it had nothing to do with the universe, no matter how you read those verses.

According to the Big Bang cosmology, the Earth was around when the expansion began, and the Earth would be long gone should the Big Rip occurred.

The Earth has only existed in the last 4.6 billion years, but the initial expansion (Big Bang) occurred over 13 billion years ago. Even our Sun didn't exist in the early stage of the universe.

And the Earth won't be around for the Big Rip, Big Crunch or Big Freeze, because the Earth would be swallowed up by the Sun, when the Sun turned into red giant star.

Dear gnostic

Thanks for your comments. Is this a hit and run comment or would you like to go into the matter and discuss what you have rightfully but not necessary correctly raised. There are at least five major errors in your statement. I am busy elsewhere but shall return to address this issue if you do decide to do so.
I would like to ask you this question:

Have you read this entire thread; all my notes upon the definitions of Qur'aanic cosmological technical terms? If so also let me know. Thanks! I look forward to a good discussion.

 

[the_thinker]

Al-Amyr is away for a while, so the Thread is on hold kinda....Wish He would come back soon

I'm sure he'll be back with a BIG BANG

 

[FearGod]

I don't think this SPACE has anything to do with the universe. Those quotes have to do with the Earth and the Earth's sky, not the universe.

In several translations, they don't use the word SPACE. What's your source for these translation that you've used?

With 84:1, the translations Pickthall and Shakir used the word HEAVEN, while Yusuf Ali and Sahih International used SKY. So the HEAVEN referred to the SKY, not to the UNIVERSE. Here for 84:1:






With verse 69:16, only one translation (Yusuf Ali) used the word SKY, but I also think the use of the word HEAVEN also referred to the SKY, and not to the UNIVERSE:



Do not confuse sky and the universe as being one and the same. SKY is what we can only see on EARTH, from our perspective at ground level, and what we see is only a very tiny fraction of the universe.

Beside I don't buy your interpretation of these verses you've quoted, as being the Big Rip. Do you want to know why?

Because I've seen those same quotes being used before, by other Muslim members here @ RF. They have used them (those same quotes) to define the Big Bang, not the Big Rip. The Big Bang and Big Rip are not the same things.

Who is right? You? Or them?

Personally, I think you all wrong with interpretations.

Anyway, those quotes only mean separating the sky (or heaven) from Earth, or the creation of the sky or firmament. Hardly original concept, and certainly not scientific by any mean.

In the Bible (meaning Genesis 1:6-8), separate the "waters from above" (sky) from the "water below" (sea).


Older than the Bible's account, are the Babylonian versions, found in the Enuma Elish, where the god Ea (Sumerian Enki) separate the sky from the Earth.

Older still, is the Sumerian poem of Gilgames (Gilgamesh or Bilagames) and the Netherworld. In the prologue to the poem, there is brief description to the creation.



And then there is the Egyptian cosmology or creation myth, where the god Shu separate his daughter Nut (sky or heaven) from his son Geb (Earth), by holding Nut up, while Geb is in the reclining position:

The Islamic separating of the earth from the sky is not original concept, and it had nothing to do with the universe, no matter how you read those verses.

According to the Big Bang cosmology, the Earth was around when the expansion began, and the Earth would be long gone should the Big Rip occurred.

The Earth has only existed in the last 4.6 billion years, but the initial expansion (Big Bang) occurred over 13 billion years ago. Even our Sun didn't exist in the early stage of the universe.

And the Earth won't be around for the Big Rip, Big Crunch or Big Freeze, because the Earth would be swallowed up by the Sun, when the Sun turned into red giant star.

Please check the following links and the video which will help you a lot to understand in a very easy way.

Seven Heavens in Quran
Universe

[youtube]ai8i5Br14vw[/youtube]
Islam Miracle, Quran Expanding Universe, Cosmic Web Miracles

 

[gnostic]

Please check the following links and the video which will help you a lot to understand in a very easy way.

Seven Heavens in Quran
Universe

It depends on the interpretation of heaven(s).

Another Muslim RF member (whom I haven't seen in awhile) claimed that the 7 heavens were the 7 atmospheres on Earth. I don't see how both interpretations (yours and his) can be true.

 

[al-amiyr]

I don't think this SPACE has anything to do with the universe. Those quotes have to do with the Earth and the Earth's sky, not the universe.

In several translations, they don't use the word SPACE. What's your source for these translation that you've used?

With 84:1, the translations Pickthall and Shakir used the word HEAVEN, while Yusuf Ali and Sahih International used SKY. So the HEAVEN referred to the SKY, not to the UNIVERSE. Here for 84:1:






With verse 69:16, only one translation (Yusuf Ali) used the word SKY, but I also think the use of the word HEAVEN also referred to the SKY, and not to the UNIVERSE:



Do not confuse sky and the universe as being one and the same. SKY is what we can only see on EARTH, from our perspective at ground level, and what we see is only a very tiny fraction of the universe.

Beside I don't buy your interpretation of these verses you've quoted, as being the Big Rip. Do you want to know why?

Because I've seen those same quotes being used before, by other Muslim members here @ RF. They have used them (those same quotes) to define the Big Bang, not the Big Rip. The Big Bang and Big Rip are not the same things.

Who is right? You? Or them?

Personally, I think you all wrong with interpretations.

Anyway, those quotes only mean separating the sky (or heaven) from Earth, or the creation of the sky or firmament. Hardly original concept, and certainly not scientific by any mean.

In the Bible (meaning Genesis 1:6-8), separate the "waters from above" (sky) from the "water below" (sea).


Older than the Bible's account, are the Babylonian versions, found in the Enuma Elish, where the god Ea (Sumerian Enki) separate the sky from the Earth.

Older still, is the Sumerian poem of Gilgames (Gilgamesh or Bilagames) and the Netherworld. In the prologue to the poem, there is brief description to the creation.



And then there is the Egyptian cosmology or creation myth, where the god Shu separate his daughter Nut (sky or heaven) from his son Geb (Earth), by holding Nut up, while Geb is in the reclining position:

The Islamic separating of the earth from the sky is not original concept, and it had nothing to do with the universe, no matter how you read those verses.

According to the Big Bang cosmology, the Earth was around when the expansion began, and the Earth would be long gone should the Big Rip occurred.

The Earth has only existed in the last 4.6 billion years, but the initial expansion (Big Bang) occurred over 13 billion years ago. Even our Sun didn't exist in the early stage of the universe.

And the Earth won't be around for the Big Rip, Big Crunch or Big Freeze, because the Earth would be swallowed up by the Sun, when the Sun turned into red giant star.

Dear gnostic

Thanks for your comments. Is this a hit and run comment or would you like to go into the matter and discuss what you have rightfully but not necessary correctly raised. There are at least five major errors in your statement. I am busy elsewhere but shall return to address this issue if you do decide to do so.
I would like to ask you this question:

Have you read this entire thread; all my notes upon the definitions of Qur'aanic cosmological technical terms? If so also let me know. Thanks! I look forward to a good discussion.

Please check the following links and the video which will help you a lot to understand in a very easy way.

Seven Heavens in Quran
Universe

[youtube]ai8i5Br14vw[/youtube]
Islam Miracle, Quran Expanding Universe, Cosmic Web Miracles

It depends on the interpretation of heaven(s).

Another Muslim RF member (whom I haven't seen in awhile) claimed that the 7 heavens were the 7 atmospheres on Earth. I don't see how both interpretations (yours and his) can be true.

Dear gnostic

I am still waiting for your reply.

 

[the_thinker]

Dear gnostic

I am still waiting for your reply.

Tjoep stil

 

[al-amiyr]

MOD POST

Thread Reopened.

All posters are reminded to stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.
Keep both Rules 1 and 11 in mind when posting.


1. Personal comments about Members and Staff
Personal attacks, and/or name-calling are strictly prohibited on the forums. Speaking or referring to a member in the third person, ie "calling them out" will also be considered a personal attack. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff.

11. Subverting/Undermining the forum Mission
The purpose of the forum is to provide a civil, informative, respectful and welcoming environment where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate. Posts while debating and discussing different beliefs must be done in the spirit of productivity. If a person's main goal is to undermine a set of beliefs by creating unproductive posts/threads/responses to others, etc, then they will be edited or removed and subject to moderation.
​

The Cosmic Model shall be on the Forum walk soon.

 

[al-amiyr]

[FONT=&quot]Subject: The Quran and Cosmology[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]Continued from post# 165

[/FONT]

A very important point not to forget.

Why does the Qur'aan state the cosmological facts as follows:

"that the samaawaat and the ‘arD were both Ratqanfa (and so) We Fataq them both again."?

Because of the manner in which the Qur'aan stated the cosmological facts the following two questions spring to mind:
1)- does the Qur'aan say that the ‘arD is a separate and unique entity in the Universe?
2)- does the Qur'aan say that the ‘arD was already in existence at the birth of the Universe?

If we look at the Qur'aanic verse and even examine it a little more deeper it would appear as if the Qur'aan is actually saying that. But that perception or conclusion is not exactly true. And it is because of this inaccurate conclusion of the lack of the proper understanding of the correct meaning of the verse that all the confusion begins and then all sorts of wild statements are made by those who claim the Qur'aan to be scientific and those who assert that it is not.
And it is also because of this inaccurate conclusion that has led to the confusion which caused the Muslim scholars to deliberately falsify the translations by removing or not including the word 'both' from or in the actual translation of the original verb which is in the dual form.
In other words the Qur'aan states 'kaanataa' 'both of them were' or 'the two of them were' or 'they two were' and then the translators took it upon themselves to transform it into 'they were' or 'were'. That is why it is sacrilegious to translate the Books of ALLAAH into other languages without providing detailed explanations.

Of the approximately seventy Qur'aan translations that I have examined so far I have found only two translations which have faithfully included the dual in their translations. Not to say that the other parts of their translations are not without grave errors. It will surprise many that both of these translations that translated the verse correctly with the dual included were not made by Muslim translators but surprisingly by non Muslim ones. In my opinion it would not be going too far to say that a common trait in man is that he loves to exaggerate when it suites him and he loves to hang on and to invent or follow explanations to that of which he knows little or nothing of.

Let us now examine precisely what the Qur'aan is exactly saying. It is well worth mentioning that when one has sufficiently studied the Qur'aan and the other important teachings of the Prophet (S+) one will immediately know that this verse is referring to three things simultaneously. In other words three different independent matters are being discussed providing the reader with factual information for observation and consideration.

Let us see what it is!

1)- the samaawaat

2)- the ‘arD

3)- the samaawaat and the ‘arD

To understand this better let us make a comparison with something else: 'the school and the principal were both famous'

There are three clear possibilities of understanding what was said.

1)- the school

2)- the principal

3)- the school and the principal

In the first example it is referring to the whole school; the students; the teachers; and the principal. There was none that was specifically famous; none that stood out from the rest. Just the whole school that was famous.

In the second example it is referring only to the principal; not to the school as a whole; not to the students; and not to the teachers. There was only one who was specifically famous; one that stood out from the rest. And it was just the principal who was alone famous.

In the third example it is referring to the whole school generally as well as to the principal specifically. It was not only the school as a whole that was famous but also the principal who in his own right was also famous.

Likewise as in our example the same rule applies to the mentioned Qur'aanic cosmological verse. Let us see!

In the first example it is referring to the whole of space and everything that it contains including the earth which is a body moving in that space. In other words it is referring to the whole universe; i.e. the sun, the moon, the stars,the galaxies and everything else including the earth. And it says that all these entities comprising the universe were Ratqan fa (and so) Fataq (i.e. brought together as one unified entity for the purpose of breaking it apart again to form the universe).

In the second example it is referring to the earth alone and no other entity in the universe; not to the sun; not the moon; not to the stars etc. but only to the earth specifically. It says that once upon a time the earth was also Ratqan fa (and so) Fataq (i.e. brought together as one unified entity (previous continents came together to form Pangaea and then again split to form the seven continents which are still spreading apart to this day).

In the third example it is referring to both what happened in the universe as well as what happened to the earth. Both underwent their own Ratqan fa (and so) Fataq and both were part of a united Ratqan fa (and so) Fataq (i.e. the whole of space and everything that it contains including the earth were once upon a time in a state that was brought together as one unified entity for the purpose of breaking it apart again to form the universe which is in an observed accelerated expansion to this day.

So there you have it in a nutshell. A great amount of details all applying to two different phenomena simultaneously. Now I will leave you with a quotation with what the Prophet (S+) of the Qur'aan had said one thousand four hundred years ago.

​

The Book of Bukhari Volume 9. Book 87. Number 141
Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying.
"I have been sent with Jawami al-Kalim (i.e. the shortest expression carrying the widest meanings).
and
I was made victorious with awe (caste into the hearts of the enemy)
and
while I was sleeping the keys of the treasures of the earth were brought to me and were put in my hand."
Muhammad (S+) said. Jawami'-al-Kalim means that Allah expresses in one or two statements or thereabouts the numerous matters that used to be written in the books revealed before (the coming of) the Prophet .​

​

If you need to know more about this just ask and I shall elaborate.​

​

To be continued inshaa allaah (if God had willed).​

​

 

[al-amiyr]

I hope to bring this subject to a satisfactory conclusion. In the meantime, have a look at the following diagram that sums up the Qur'aan Cosmological Model.

Here is a little diagram about the great reality as portrayed in the qur'aan. The seven samaawaat (universal realms) one above the other with varying degrees of outward expansion. The innermost samaa' (universal realm) being drawn outwards by the gravity of the six outer samaawaat (universal realms) and the close to halting of the outermost samaa' (universal realm) by the gravitational attraction of the six inner samaawaat (universal realms).

Soon to be continued. R - - - - - - -> /\llllllllll/\_/\ (Table Mountain)

 

[StopS]

This is such a joke! Now we have some circles which are 7 heavens, each one for a different prophet except the penthouse which is reserved for one of the gods and then the "samaa' (universal realm)", which in turn is pulled by "the gravitational attraction of the six inner samaawaat (universal realms)." This "samaawaat" is translated by this character as Universe.This is hilarious and getting worse every time he comes back with another instalment of this "model".
What is the basis for this "model"? No idea.
What is the evidence for this "model"? No idea.
What is the predictive capability of this "model"? No idea.

 

[1robin]

I hope to bring this subject to a satisfactory conclusion. In the meantime, have a look at the following diagram that sums up the Qur'aan Cosmological Model.

Here is a little diagram about the great reality as portrayed in the qur'aan. The seven samaawaat (universal realms) one above the other with varying degrees of outward expansion. The innermost samaa' (universal realm) being drawn outwards by the gravity of the six outer samaawaat (universal realms) and the close to halting of the outermost samaa' (universal realm) by the gravitational attraction of the six inner samaawaat (universal realms).

Soon to be continued. R - - - - - - -> /\llllllllll/\_/\ (Table Mountain)

Where are the Demons running back and forth between levels, with Allah throwing meteors and comets at them?

 

[al-amiyr]

This is such a joke! Now we have some circles which are 7 heavens, each one for a different prophet except the penthouse which is reserved for one of the gods and then the "samaa' (universal realm)", which in turn is pulled by "the gravitational attraction of the six inner samaawaat (universal realms)." This "samaawaat" is translated by this character as Universe.This is hilarious and getting worse every time he comes back with another instalment of this "model".
What is the basis for this "model"? No idea.
What is the evidence for this "model"? No idea.
What is the predictive capability of this "model"? No idea.

Instead of discussing irrelevant and lack of understanding matters, prove that this model is inconsistent with science. Present your alternative view if you have any that will show the flaws in this one.

 

[al-amiyr]

Where are the Demons running back and forth between levels, with Allah throwing meteors and comets at them?

Nothing to disprove the Model. Resorting to throwing in irrelevant matters.

 

[1robin]

Nothing to disprove the Model. Resorting to throwing in irrelevant matters.

I was mainly joking. By all means keep gowing. I find it entertaining if nothing else. Where do you get all this stuff? Are you willing to answer my original questions about your very early claims?

 

[al-amiyr]

I was mainly joking. By all means keep gowing. I find it entertaining if nothing else. Where do you get all this stuff? Are you willing to answer my original questions about your very early claims?

I have not forgotten about all your original questions. They have been on my mind since. In the meantime I have been discussing on many forums where this Model has consistently attracted the most attention. There is one guy called StopS who have been following me everywhere including here to show the people that I am a nutcase. He has just answered in the post above yours. He reminds me about you but on an astronomical scale. Ask as many questions as you can. They will be tackled one at a time from the first of April 2013 and that is no April fool's joke.