The Quandary

[ManSinha]

"....... By God! Should one who is in affliction or grief read this Tablet with absolute sincerity, God will dispel his sadness, solve his difficulties and remove his afflictions.

Verily, He is the Merciful, the Compassionate. Praise be to God, the Lord of all the worlds."

And you think that is original?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And you think that is original?

View attachment 37534

Thank you, you have confirmed the Quandary and also what was offered by Baha'allah.

We are told what is offered, was offered in many different ways in All Faiths given by God.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is just that and it has always been the Quandary given of God.

Either a Messenger is from God, as claimed, with the proofs and Words they offer, or they are not.

There's been a lot of spiritual/religious messages with a lot of variation. If a person can ignore most of it, then they can pretend all things are answered in the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. But, since only a few chapters of Revelation and the other books of the Bible and the NT are "interpreted" by Abdul Baha, Baha'is can't even answer things dealing with Christianity adequately. Then, if we add Hinduism in there, then we have very, very little that is explained? For a messenger that is supposed to have all knowledge, too many things were left unanswered. So I still wait and keep asking Baha'i questions. But, I'm enjoying the journey with you guys.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And you think that is original?

This explains in very simply terms, as to how God is One and All Faith from God, is One, and as such we will see the same Truth in all things, when we look for it;

"Whenever there is decay of righteousness... and there is exaltation of unrighteousness, then I Myself come forth... for the destruction of evil-doers, for the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age." --- KRISHNA- Bhagavad Gita- fourth discourse

Here is the Prayer in full, not as small quotes, so yes the Prayer is an Original, penned by Baha'u'llah.

'He is the King, the All-Knowing, the Wise! Lo, the Nightingale of Paradise singeth upon the twigs of the Tree of Eternity, with holy and sweet melodies, proclaiming to the sincere ones the glad tidings of the nearness of God, calling the believers in the Divine Unity to the court of the Presence of the Generous One, informing the severed ones of the message which hath been revealed by God, the King, the Glorious, the Peerless, guiding the lovers to the seat of sanctity and to this resplendent Beauty.

Verily this is that Most Great Beauty, foretold in the Books of the Messengers, through Whom truth shall be distinguished from error and the wisdom of every command shall be tested. Verily He is the Tree of Life that bringeth forth the fruits of God, the Exalted, the Powerful, the Great.

O Ahmad! Bear thou witness that verily He is God and there is no God but Him, the King, the Protector, the Incomparable, the Omnipotent. And that the One Whom He hath sent forth by the name of ‘Alí¹ was the true One from God, to Whose commands we are all conforming.

Say: O people be obedient to the ordinances of God, which have been enjoined in the Bayán by the Glorious, the Wise One. Verily He is the King of the Messengers and His book is the Mother Book did ye but know.

Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord.

O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.

Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another.

O Ahmad! Forget not My bounties while I am absent. Remember My days during thy days, and My distress and banishment in this remote prison. And be thou so steadfast in My love that thy heart shall not waver, even if the swords of the enemies rain blows upon thee and all the heavens and the earth arise against thee.

Be thou as a flame of fire to My enemies and a river of life eternal to My loved ones, and be not of those who doubt.

And if thou art overtaken by affliction in My path, or degradation for My sake, be not thou troubled thereby.

Rely upon God, thy God and the Lord of thy fathers. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.

Learn well this Tablet, O Ahmad. Chant it during thy days and withhold not thyself therefrom. For verily, God hath ordained for the one who chants it, the reward of a hundred martyrs and a service in both worlds. These favors have We bestowed upon thee as a bounty on Our part and a mercy from Our presence, that thou mayest be of those who are grateful.

By God! Should one who is in affliction or grief read this Tablet with absolute sincerity, God will dispel his sadness, solve his difficulties and remove his afflictions.

Verily, He is the Merciful, the Compassionate. Praise be to God, the Lord of all the worlds." Bahá’u’lláh

Now if you choose to find passages from scriptures, that may also offer the same things, for a few words, of even a verse, then to me you support the quandary I offer. But the prayer as it stands and what it means is entirely original for this Dispensation, as it is calling upon us not to reject the Bab born again as promised by Krishna, the door for this age.

Regards Tony

 

[ManSinha]

as it is calling upon us not to reject the Bab born again as promised by Krishna, the door for this age.

"Krishna" did not predict / promise /make mention of any such thing - here is an open challenge to you from some one that is not even a Vaishnavite

Go back and show me original (not Baha'i) sources where any such thing is said (need original quotes from the scriptures along with their translation) - if you cannot then you have to consider that at least the translations you are working with (not for a moment do I think you can understand and read Persian) are inaccurate and misleading

And, Tony, be man enough to respond to the choices I set forth - I really do not want to see your "Be happy ...etc etc" which you are quick to put down when your back is to the wall

 

[CG Didymus]

"Whenever there is decay of righteousness... and there is exaltation of unrighteousness, then I Myself come forth... for the destruction of evil-doers, for the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age." --- KRISHNA- Bhagavad Gita- fourth discourse

For one thing, Krishna is an incarnation of a Hindu God. Do Baha'is believe in multiple Gods and that they can incarnate? Next, when hasn't there been unrighteousness, and probably for many exalting in it? When was there ever destruction of evil-doers? The Flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? Things that Baha'is probably don't belief really happened? And last, when was righteousness firmly established? Like with Islam, Baha'is say that the early leaders killed Ali, then that the Umayyads and the Abbasids are the evil beasts and dragons of Revelation.

Oh, and who was the last avatar that most Hindus accept as being the "return" of Krishna? Any of the Abrahamic prophets Baha'i call "manifestations"? It should be all of them shouldn't it? Why would Hindus reject any of them? Unless, they didn't know about them, because they didn't come to India. And they didn't deal with the "unrighteousness" and decay of Hinduism within India. And those prophets brought a message that didn't fit into to Hinduism. But did fit into the people where those prophets appeared. So how can you call any of the Abrahamic prophets an avatar like Krishna?

I know and thus is the quandary and that you hope I find peace and happiness. Too many Baha'is give too simplistic answers or none at all, which is troubling.

 

[CG Didymus]

Say: O people be obedient to the ordinances of God, which have been enjoined in the Bayán by the Glorious, the Wise One. Verily He is the King of the Messengers and His book is the Mother Book did ye but know.

The Bayan is the "Mother Book"? No, I did not know that. And, what are the ordinances that people are supposed to be obedient too? I didn't think that Baha'is were required to follow any of the things in the Bayan... Except maybe to believe in and follow Baha'u'llah?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Krishna" did not predict / promise /make mention of any such thing - here is an open challenge to you from some one that is not even a Vaishnavite

Go back and show me original (not Baha'i) sources where any such thing is said (need original quotes from the scriptures along with their translation) - if you cannot then you have to consider that at least the translations you are working with (not for a moment do I think you can understand and read Persian) are inaccurate and misleading

And, Tony, be man enough to respond to the choices I set forth - I really do not want to see your "Be happy ...etc etc" which you are quick to put down when your back is to the wall

One such passage was supplied in my last post. You are free to see that as you wish, but the quoted passage supports what Baha'u'llah has said in the Kitab-i-Iqan.

Thus the quandary remains and I know in my life I do not have to prove my Faith in any way but to live the life asked of me. If you see no quandary it is fine and no further discussion is needed.

A couple of quotes as requested.

"Whenever there is decay of righteousness... and there is exaltation of unrighteousness, then I Myself come forth... for the destruction of evil-doers, for the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age." --- KRISHNA- Bhagavad Gita- fourth discourse

Here is another

"When the practices taught by the Vedas and the institutes of law shall nearly have ceased, and the close of the Kali age shall be nigh, a portion of that divine being who exists of his own spiritual nature in the character of Brahma, and who is the beginning and the end, and who comprehends all things, shall descend upon the earth. He will be born as Kalki in the family of an eminent brahmin of Sambhala village, endowed with the eight superhuman faculties. By his irresistible might he will destroy all the barbarians and thieves, and all whose minds are devoted to iniquity. He will then re-establish righteousness upon earth; and the minds of those who live at the end of the Kali age shall be awakened, and shall be as pellucid as crystal. The men who are thus changed by virtue of that peculiar time shall be as the seeds of human beings, and shall give birth to a race who shall follow the laws of the Krita age, the Age of Purity." --- Hinduism- Vishnu Purana 4.24

They also reflect Biblical Prophecy and you are free to see them however you wish.

I am happy and I wish for you all happiness as well. What a great age we liven in.

Regards Tony

 

[ManSinha]

"When the practices taught by the Vedas and the institutes of law shall nearly have ceased, and the close of the Kali age shall be nigh, a portion of that divine being who exists of his own spiritual nature in the character of Brahma, and who is the beginning and the end, and who comprehends all things, shall descend upon the earth. He will be born as Kalki in the family of an eminent brahmin of Sambhala village, endowed with the eight superhuman faculties. By his irresistible might he will destroy all the barbarians and thieves, and all whose minds are devoted to iniquity. He will then re-establish righteousness upon earth; and the minds of those who live at the end of the Kali age shall be awakened, and shall be as pellucid as crystal. The men who are thus changed by virtue of that peculiar time shall be as the seeds of human beings, and shall give birth to a race who shall follow the laws of the Krita age, the Age of Purity." --- Hinduism- Vishnu Purana 4.24

1. The Puranas are not taken seriously
2. Are you seriously equating Kalki with the Bab?

Compare the description given in Revelations with that of Kalki - the Bab nowhere meets the criteria laid out

Revelation 19:11-16

AND

"Lord Kalki, the Lord of the universe, riding His swift horse Devadatta and, sword in hand, will travel over the earth exhibiting His eight mystic powers and eight special qualities of Godhead. Displaying His unequalled effulgence and riding with great speed, He will kill by the millions those thieves and rogues who have dared dress as kings."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Bayan is the "Mother Book"? No, I did not know that. And, what are the ordinances that people are supposed to be obedient too? I didn't think that Baha'is were required to follow any of the things in the Bayan... Except maybe to believe in and follow Baha'u'llah?

The Bayan was subject to the 'One whom God would make Manifest. The Laws of God are what we are to be obedient to.

It is only early days and I offer it does not matter how detailed one gives a reply, if a person is not seeing a quandary, If a heart is not searching, it will not see more than it is attached to.

I am currently studying when not working, so time is short to dive into much detail. Pick one quandary and not multioul with each question and we can go from there.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For one thing, Krishna is an incarnation of a Hindu God. Do Baha'is believe in multiple Gods and that they can incarnate? Next, when hasn't there been unrighteousness, and probably for many exalting in it? When was there ever destruction of evil-doers? The Flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? Things that Baha'is probably don't belief really happened? And last, when was righteousness firmly established? Like with Islam, Baha'is say that the early leaders killed Ali, then that the Umayyads and the Abbasids are the evil beasts and dragons of Revelation.

Oh, and who was the last avatar that most Hindus accept as being the "return" of Krishna? Any of the Abrahamic prophets Baha'i call "manifestations"? It should be all of them shouldn't it? Why would Hindus reject any of them? Unless, they didn't know about them, because they didn't come to India. And they didn't deal with the "unrighteousness" and decay of Hinduism within India. And those prophets brought a message that didn't fit into to Hinduism. But did fit into the people where those prophets appeared. So how can you call any of the Abrahamic prophets an avatar like Krishna?

I know and thus is the quandary and that you hope I find peace and happiness. Too many Baha'is give too simplistic answers or none at all, which is troubling.

That whole post is the quandary, yes why have people rejected Baha'u'llah, if He is the one promised in all scriptures?

I see the answer is simple and complex.

The simple is that there is One God.

The complex, is what we make of that.

Sorry Work, study and Baha'i Fast and community all at this time.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

1. The Puranas are not taken seriously
2. Are you seriously equating Kalki with the Bab?

Compare the description given in Revelations with that of Kalki - the Bab no where meets the criteria laid out

Revelation 19:11-16

AND

"Lord Kalki, the Lord of the universe, riding His swift horse Devadatta and, sword in hand, will travel over the earth exhibiting His eight mystic powers and eight special qualities of Godhead. Displaying His unequalled effulgence and riding with great speed, He will kill by the millions those thieves and rogues who have dared dress as kings."

That is your quandary, many people choose to take a wide variety of useful information not seriously. A majority of the world still does not take either the Bible or the Quran seriously, what chance does the lost scriptures of Krishna stand?

To me it is easy, All good is from Allah, all else is from out own selves.

I do not read the scriptures in a literal interpretation, thus if one is looking for Revelation 19:11-16 to unfold, well I see they will always wait and that is their quandary.

There are sound and logical explanations given to Revelation 11 & 12, which is accounted as Baha'i Scripture. From those, one may start to understand that we need to read verse 19 in another light as well. I also added a Daniel and Isaiah link.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66

For a start, what is sharper than the Sword of the tongue that tells of Gods word, that cuts the old from the new, cuts brother from sister and nations apart.

Regards Tony

 

[ManSinha]

[EDIT] Post deleted - could be considered close to crossing lines

 

[CG Didymus]

"When the practices taught by the Vedas and the institutes of law shall nearly have ceased, and the close of the Kali age shall be nigh, a portion of that divine being who exists of his own spiritual nature in the character of Brahma, and who is the beginning and the end, and who comprehends all things, shall descend upon the earth. He will be born as Kalki in the family of an eminent brahmin of Sambhala village, endowed with the eight superhuman faculties. By his irresistible might he will destroy all the barbarians and thieves, and all whose minds are devoted to iniquity. He will then re-establish righteousness upon earth; and the minds of those who live at the end of the Kali age shall be awakened, and shall be as pellucid as crystal. The men who are thus changed by virtue of that peculiar time shall be as the seeds of human beings, and shall give birth to a race who shall follow the laws of the Krita age, the Age of Purity." --- Hinduism- Vishnu Purana 4.24

I've seen a year or two back that some Baha'i posted an article written by a Baha'i as to how the prophecies about Kalki add up to Baha'u'llah. I don't remember one Hindu agreeing with the interpretation, though. So when was this prophecy in the Vedas given? I'd imagine that many "manifestation" have come and gone since that time, why doesn't the prophecy mention them? The time and cycles as I recall were hundreds of thousands of years. And yet, that Baha'i calculated it out to 1844? And, I844 us The Bab, not Baha'u'llah. The Bab is not Kalki. He is your Elijah, the forerunner. So lots and lots of issues.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

[EDIT] Post deleted - could be considered close to crossing lines

I have broad shoulders and for me anyone can cross any line they choose to.

I love a world of such choices. Only in that way can we find what is real Love!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I've seen a year or two back that some Baha'i posted an article written by a Baha'i as to how the prophecies about Kalki add up to Baha'u'llah. I don't remember one Hindu agreeing with the interpretation, though. So when was this prophecy in the Vedas given? I'd imagine that many "manifestation" have come and gone since that time, why doesn't the prophecy mention them? The time and cycles as I recall were hundreds of thousands of years. And yet, that Baha'i calculated it out to 1844? And, I844 us The Bab, not Baha'u'llah. The Bab is not Kalki. He is your Elijah, the forerunner. So lots and lots of issues.

There is a book called the Kitab-i-Iqan, it really answered all those issues for me.

There are many passages that clear up all the issues.

I see no answers will make much sense if one looks for a material unfolding. I was always amazed at the Explanations of Abdu'lbaha and how far I am from seeing what is in the spiritual world.

One has to look at the Attributes of a Word and even the foundation the word was built upon as to gain spiritual Visions of what it can mean.

"Bahá’u’lláh also gave in detail, in response to the questioner, several meanings pertaining to the word 'sun', adding that this word has so many other meanings that if ten secretaries were to record His explanations for a period of one or two years, He would still not exhaust its significance. Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 29-33

"Not only do the words uttered by the Manifestations have inner meanings but even a single letter contains divine mysteries and significances." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 34

CG, it is more than what we read, we must ask heart and soul to unfold the mysteries contained within.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't remember one Hindu agreeing with the interpretation, though. So when was this prophecy in the Vedas given?

Ahhh the Quandary

There are many Hindu that have become Baha'i, thus I see they have been able to balance what they thought was a truth, with what Baha'u'llah has now said it a truth.

Also people of all Faiths have the same choices and many have become Baha'i from all those Faiths as well, this will multiply.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg I think that the kind of unity that is already helping and will continue helping to improve the lives of all people everywhere, without making things worse for anyone, is in the kind of personal spiritual growth and community service that the Universal House of Justice is promoting, and which it said in “One Common Faith” is the best way for Baha’is to help remedy the disease of sectarian hatreds. Anyone who wants to can help with that, online or offline including in Internet discussions, no matter what they believe or don’t believe about God and His messengers.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg I think that the kind of unity that is already helping and will continue helping to improve the lives of all people everywhere, without making things worse for anyone, is in the kind of personal spiritual growth and community service that the Universal House of Justice is promoting, and which it said in “One Common Faith” is the best way for Baha’is to help remedy the disease of sectarian hatreds. Anyone who wants to can help with that, online or offline including in Internet discussions, no matter what they believe or don’t believe about God and His messengers.

That is all part of the Quandary Jim

There are as many "I think" ways, as there are people.

A unity of vision, would most likely mean a unity of source as well, I think!

I see that can still be a Unity in diversity.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

Either a Messenger is from God, as claimed, with the proofs and Words they offer, or they are not.

So given this is a choice, I see this is the age where humanity will achieve the unity of the Human race under One God, or it is not.

Let’s say that there’s a messenger from God, and this is the age where humanity will achieve the unity of the Human race under One God. What about it? Is there anything for anyone to do about it, besides telling people about it?