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Featured The Power Of Circular Reasoning

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    If there is no evidence to support a belief then its veracity has to be in doubt.
     
  2. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Utter nonsense. I have no way of answering your original question until you define your terms. How hard is this to grasp?

    Your projections don't hide your **** poor reasons for believing.

    I responded to your question immediately, with an obviously relevant follow-up necessary to answer your question. Your posts are all bark and no bite. Put up or shut up.


    And as with your belief in God, that belief is also without merit.


    Oops! You mean all your bluster is nonsense? :eek:

    Wrong. Again. After all this time, you still fail to grasp the point.

    If we can't see it or measure it or empirically detect it in any way, then we have no way to know anything about it.

    That does not mean the thing doesn't exist. Things could exist that we have no information about.

    The issue is whether we are justified to believe in something we don't have any evidence for.

    The second issue, which I also brought up from the very beginning, is that if the thing you believe in is unfalsifiable, then there's no evidence you can't rationalize to match your belief. So again - how do you demonstrate the existence of an all powerful being?
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree.
    The key there is, "there is no evidence".
    When you see the leaves on the tree moving, you don't say, there is no evidence of wind, if you never knew what wind was, and someone (who has some knowledge of...) said to you, "the wind is moving the leaves".
    Evidence is not the thing seen, but an indication that what may not be seen is producing an effect that is seen - evidence... of what is not seen.
    Agreed?
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    So no amount of evidence will be sufficient for you, because you want to be able to see with your eyes, and your instruments.
    That was your answer. Okay.
     
  5. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Still wrong. Jesus man, this isn't hard.

    No amount of evidence is sufficient for an unfalsifiable claim, because it's unfalsifiable.

    For falsifiable claims, yes, I would like empirical evidence please.
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    No need to swear. Or maybe for you, there is.
    You said to me, that future advanced technology may allow for a knowledge of the unknown. Did you not say this?
    Then why bring up unfalsifiable? What's that got to do with evidence you were asking about?
    You want to have your cake and eat it too?
    If something not known, may become known, due to the limitations of man, then what is falsifiable?
    Oh wait. Whatever we like. What we don't like isn't. That's it?
     
  7. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    You can't compare wind, which we know exists as we can feel it physically, with a belief in a deity, which hides away from humanity so we have no evidence of its existence.
     
  8. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    You are confused, as throughout the thread.

    Unfalsifiable claims remain unfalsifiable no matter how much we discover. What do we need to discover that would demonstrate the existence of an all powerful being?

    Falsifiable claims could be confirmed now, or confirmed later, depending on evidence/discovery.
     
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I used wind as an example, not a comparison.
    As is nicely stated in scripture, Roman 1:18-23 - which is just one area, just one point - there is evidence for an unseen creator. Please note, this is just one of many, but according to the scriptures, there are those who make no investigation, but all their thoughts are, "there is no God."
    Psalm 10:4

    Notice, they make no investigation. It is not that the evidence is not there, it's that they made up their minds to dismiss any evidence that it points to a divine creator.
    That's how I see it is with Atheist.
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Huh? :confused:
    Unfalsifiable claims remain unfalsifiable no matter how much we discover.
    Falsifiable claims could be confirmed now, or confirmed later, depending on evidence/discovery.

    [​IMG]
    o_O What?
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Some atheists would also consider it sufficient if God would speak to them directly, but God does not do that.
     
  12. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Please research what it means for a claim to be unfalsifiable and why it's problematic.
     
  13. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Why not if it exists?
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    1. Because God chooses to communicate only through Messengers
    2. Because you could never understand God if He spoke to you directly
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Please read your post again...
    Unfalsifiable claims remain unfalsifiable no matter how much we discover. What do we need to discover that would demonstrate the existence of an all powerful being?
    Falsifiable claims could be confirmed now, or confirmed later, depending on evidence/discovery.


    What you are calling an unfalsifiable claim seems to be a falsifiable claim, from what you have said, so I am not sure you what to make of your statements here. What exactly is your point, in relation to our discussion?

    These are your words...
    First of all, if your God is ultimately natural and obeys scientific laws but we just don't understand them yet, then I'm perfectly open to the idea that we could some day discover it.

    You did not respond to my questions here, so I have no idea what is or is not a falsifiable claim.
    It's clear to me why Atheist and the anti-Christian, refuse to answer questions though, as I mentioned before.

    However, from what you said, it seems to me you have admitted that the argument I am presenting, is a falsifiable claim, and if that be the case, then you would... should agree that Atheist indeed have no excuse for their unreasonable stance.
     
  16. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Oh good, so then you will finally answer my question for the 10th time: how do you test for the existence of an all powerful being?




    Yes, IF. Then you went on to define your God in a way that's unfalsifiable. Unless you can FINALLY answer my question above.


    I don't need to answer your questions for you to learn what falsifiability is. An introductory science course at your local community college should suffice. Or just Google it for God's sake.

    Oh come off it. I've answered plenty of your questions in this thread. Your reasons for believing are poor, so you're obfuscating with this quasi-skeptic Socratic routine. I repeat: put up or shut up.

    You're still confused, as before.

    Seriously, basic science education would help you in these types of discussions. Courses are usually pretty cheap if you purchase them individually from your local community college.
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Please. Don't pretend to know and understand things related to science, when you admitted you barely knew anything about dark energy, and was still making statements as though you knew and understood - wrong statements, like claiming it could be directly observed, etc.

    If 'dark energy' is falsifiable, then so is a divine creator. This is clear as you seem to agree.
    So if you can demonstrate that 'dark energy' is real, then you have a reason to continue asking your question - for the 11th time, though it was answered.
    If you can't, then admit that Atheism is stupid.

    Edit
    By the way, I meant to say, 'You did not respond to my questions here, so I have no idea what is or is not a falsifiable claim... to you.' Very important. I was not saying, I don't understand the scientific term. I just don't understand what point you are making.
     
  18. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    :rolleyes: I am perfectly within my rights to claim knowledge of scientific methodology, which is what I'm encouraging you to learn. That doesn't require me to have all knowledge of every area of scientific research.

    Did you learn what falsifiability is yet?

    Not if you define a divine creator as all powerful, for the 12th time. How do you test for the presence of an all powerful being?

    I have no need to defend dark energy, for the last time. How many times must I repeat myself for you? Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Something in this conversation is stupid, but it isn't atheism.

    The point I'm making is that your God is unfalsifiable. I've said this repeatedly now. If you understand what falsifiability is (which from your statements thus far, you don't), then you should understand my point. Instead, you are desperately clinging to your tu quoque fallacy in the hope that it will vindicate your theism - it won't.

    This conversation isn't going anywhere. If and/or when you answer my questions, we may continue.

    1) What is falsifiability, and why is it important?

    2) How do you test for the presence of an all powerful being?

    If you don't answer my questions, I'll just assume you don't have the answers, or don't want to continue the conversation.
     
    #258 Left Coast, Jul 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Why should I answer someone's questions when they don't answer mine, and the answer is tied up in the answer to my questions?
    Perhaps applying the last statement to yourself would be fitting then, to be fair.
     
  20. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Nah, you already admitted I answered your questions. No need to circle back to that lie. If and when you're ready to continue the conversation, let me know.
     
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