The Paradox of Atheism and God

[MikeF]

I'm smarter than 99% of my fellow humans when it comes to seeing through artifice to the conceptual content it is being created to represent.

It is what it is. Ya'll are just wasting your time arguing and debating the artifice and ignoring the source. But the ego wants what it wants, and few can say "no" to it.

I don't understand why you don't see attributing terms like great, source, and sustenance to the unknown as artifice as well. Especially in light of your greater intelligence.

 

[MikeF]

If you weren't working SO hard at rejecting the obvious, you could understand plain English better.

Everything that exists is fulfilling the existential possibilities that are available. Those possibilities therefor create, define, and give shape and purpose to everything that exists. The bumble bee is what, why, and how it is because of the niche set of possibilities that were available to it for evolutionary bio-habitation. That niche set of possibilities creates it, defines it, shapes it, and gives it it's purpose. The same it's true of every atom, molecule, and bit of matter in the universe. Everything is what it is to fulfill the possibilities available. And whatever isn't, isn't because it was not possible.

So the real question is: how are those possibilities possible? And why are some possibilities possible, while others are not?

Chance negates purpose.

 

[Bird123]

Very Good!! I

Some people may think that atheism is the rejection of God, but what if atheism could actually incidentally end up the path to God? What if God exists, but not in the way that most religions claim? What if God is not a personal being, but a transcendent reality that can only be experienced through reason, logic, and evidence? Something which some atheists seem to be very familiar with.

Some people may say that atheists are doomed to hell for not following the Bible, but what is hell? Is it a literal place of fire and torment, or is it a metaphor for the suffering and despair that we create for ourselves and others? Is hell something that God imposes on us, or something that we impose on ourselves? Is hell eternal, or can it be overcome?

Perhaps hell is just especially real if one makes it a fear of theirs and a mental reality. Perhaps hell is the result of ignorance, hatred, and violence. Perhaps hell is the absence of love, compassion, and peace. Perhaps hell is not something that awaits us after death, but something that we experience in life.

If that is the case, then atheism may very well be the path to God. By rejecting the false and harmful notions of God that are propagated by some religions, atheists may be closer to the true nature of God than those who blindly follow them. By seeking truth and knowledge through reason and evidence, atheists "may" potentially be able to glimpse the divine order and beauty of the universe. By living morally and ethically without fear or coercion, atheists may be able to express the love and kindness that are the essence of God. In my opinion.

Maybe God does not care about what we believe, but about what we do. Maybe God does not want us to worship him, but to respect him. Maybe God does not demand our obedience, but our freedom.

Maybe atheism is not fully the rejection of God, but may end up one of many paths to the discovery of God.

Very Good!!! I can see you are headed in the right direction.
I have found no religion that actually understands God at all. You are right! It has never ever been about Believing.

Life is the education of God's children. The atheists are really on the same path as us all. Since this is a multilevel classroom, everyone is at a different level of understanding. There is much atheists can teach theists just like there is much theists can teach atheists. Perhaps, if they met in the middle they all could Discover more.

God returns all our actions, good and bad, back to us in time. This is not punishment. This is to teach us all what out choices and actions really mean. You are right!! Hell does not exist. On the other hand, through one's choices and actions, one can choose some mighty hard lessons for oneself. It might seem like Hell, however, the journey will lead to understanding what the best choices really are and to a Higher Level where, in time, one will be able to create a Heavenly state for oneself and others. Since God returns the good choices as well, one will learn to Love Unconditionally, after all isn't that what everyone really wants returning??

God is actually Someone. On the other hand, God isn't what religion portraits. Religion reflects mankind more than anything else. That's OK. Everyone learns in time.

I can see you have been doing lots of actual thinking. You are including lots of Logic, Reasoning, and Math!! Of course, there is always more to Discover. God hides nothing. Look around as you have been doing. It stares us all in the face!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[PureX]

I don't understand why you don't see attributing terms like great, source, and sustenance to the unknown as artifice as well. Especially in light of your greater intelligence.

Artifice for what? The mystery is real. And is not resolvable. Humans have been puzzling over it since the dawn of time. Labeling it “God” and pretending it’s a person helps them imagine that they can control it, somehow, even though they don’t. It makes them feel less afraid of it. Like it or not that’s the way it is. And you can’t prove any of them wrong. Because it’s as much a mystery to you as it is to anyone else.

 

[PureX]

Chance negates purpose.

What chance? Chance is actually very rare. Even we humans have to design very precise mechanisms to mimic it. And anyway, it can only exist within the context of order.

 

[Agent Smith]

The reasons that transform an atheist to a theist haven't yet seen the light of day; on the other hand, the journey in the other direction is all over social media. Nevertheless, in certain forms of expression, we do see these ... these ... "reasons", but one is hungry before a meal and not after ... so to speak; of course before a meal is after one.

 

[MikeF]

What chance? Chance is actually very rare. Even we humans have to design very precise mechanisms to mimic it. And anyway, it can only exist within the context of order.

If there are possibilities as opposed to a fixed deterministic universe inexorably marching toward it's preordained future, then there is chance, yes?

Chance is less apparent the shorter the timescale, and becomes more apparent the greater the timescale considered, but ever present regardless. IMO.

 

[MikeF]

Artifice for what? The mystery is real. And is not resolvable. Humans have been puzzling over it since the dawn of time. Labeling it “God” and pretending it’s a person helps them imagine that they can control it, somehow, even though they don’t. It makes them feel less afraid of it. Like it or not that’s the way it is. And you can’t prove any of them wrong. Because it’s as much a mystery to you as it is to anyone else.

You misunderstood me. It is not the acknowledgement of the unknown that is the artiface, it would be any characterization of it.

 

[PureX]

You misunderstood me. It is not the acknowledgement of the unknown that is the artiface, it would be any characterization of it.

Yes, but all human thought is artifice in that regard, except the great mystery of being, itself. "I" am the product of cognitive artifice. So are "you". That collection of images, memories, impressions, and prognostications that are conjured up by the labels that designate you or I in the minds of ourselves and others are all forms of cognitive artifice. They are representations of the phenomenon that people experience when they experience us. And everyone's is different, of course. How could they not be?

It's the same with the great mystery of existence. We all experience it uniquely, and so we all create our own individual cognitive representations of it. But the mystery of it remains, for us all. And cognitive artifice (representation) is how we deal with it in our minds.

 

[PureX]

If there are possibilities as opposed to a fixed deterministic universe inexorably marching toward it's preordained future, then there is chance, yes?

Some believe yes, and some believe no. And actual chance is so rare and subtle that none of us can prove it.

Chance is less apparent the shorter the timescale, and becomes more apparent the greater the timescale considered, but ever present regardless. IMO.

Apparent chance is not actual chance.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The mystery is real. And is not resolvable. Humans have been puzzling over it since the dawn of time. Labeling it “God” and pretending it’s a person helps them imagine that they can control it, somehow, even though they don’t. It makes them feel less afraid of it.

The mystery cannot be resolved, and wisdom includes recognizing that fact and accepting it. You seem to be recommending or condoning giving it a name and pretending to control fate through it - a form of whistling in the dark and magical thinking. That's one step away from praying to it and sacrificing animals to appease it. That kind of thinking should be discouraged. There are better ways to approaching life for those willing to pursue them.

 

[PureX]

The mystery cannot be resolved, and wisdom includes recognizing that fact and accepting it. You seem to be recommending or condoning giving it a name and pretending to control fate through it - a form of whistling in the dark and magical thinking. That's one step away from praying to it and sacrificing animals to appease it. That kind of thinking should be discouraged. There are better ways to approaching life for those willing to pursue them.

You forget that you can't know their artifice is 'bad' or 'wrong' any more than they can know it's appropriate or accurate. They can, however, determine that it's 'good' within their own experience of engaging in it. Whereas you can only determine that for your own self.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

you can't know their artifice is 'bad' or 'wrong' any more than they can know it's appropriate or accurate.

I can and do know that choosing a god belief to comfort oneself is an inferior approach to countenancing reality when there are other options. It leaves one in a state of fear and vulnerable to the manipulation of others. We want to outgrow that kind of thinking and learn to live as moral agents that reason and who understand that they are not watched over, that they might not be immortal, and that nothing gets better unless they make it better themselves.

Yes, there are lives where this is unlikely or impossible, where people are actually that disempowered and vulnerable, and if religious belief comforts them, then they'll engage in it, and I don't begrudge them that. But it still doesn't make any of that desirable or such lives enviable.

They can, however, determine that it's 'good' within their own experience of engaging in it.

They determine that they are more comfortable with the god belief than without it, but not that they are at an optimal place holding it. You've seen the overly zealous believers here lost in their beliefs trying to scratch some itch by attempting to promote their beliefs to critical thinkers. I'm sure that they would say that they are at a good place, but who would trade places with them? Would you? What they get is absolute assurance of a shot at heaven however unrealistic that hope might be.

But look at the price they pay for that. Do any seem content to you? Would these people be satisfied with the lives they're living if they knew that there were no gods or rewards waiting for them? Not the ones who also say that the hope of an afterlife gives their lives meaning and purpose. Aren't they also saying that without their beliefs, their lives lack meaning?