The Nicene Creed

[TrueBlue2]

It was in the third century that the emperor Constantine gathered the best philosophers of his day, along with several Catholic bishops, and threw them in a room together with a mandate to come to a consensus as to the nature of God. These discussions, as one can imagine, were contested and hotly debated for weeks. From this came the doctrine of the 'trinity' which has confused the Christian world for centuries. Over the next 120 years it was revised again and again.

Just wondering why so many Christians stick to this ancient, and man made, and incomprehensible description of God as trinity, especially when there are vivid examples in the scriptures that contradicts what the Nicene Creed purports?

 

[Cordoba]

Good question True Blue, and welcome to the forum

The Early Unitarians were against the concept of trinity, and were persecuted because of their belief in pure Monotheism

After so many years of persecution, they became a small minority.

I assume that after what they went through, nobody dared to follow them

Inquisition?

 

[Mister Emu]

It was in the third century that the emperor Constantine gathered the best philosophers of his day, along with several Catholic bishops, and threw them in a room together with a mandate to come to a consensus as to the nature of God. These discussions, as one can imagine, were contested and hotly debated for weeks. From this came the doctrine of the 'trinity' which has confused the Christian world for centuries.

 

[Cordoba]

Historical background:

The Early Unitarians: Arius and His Followers

by Dr. Jan Garrett

The Early Unitarians: Arius and His Followers

 

[Francine]

Just wondering why so many Christians stick to this ancient, and man made, and incomprehensible description of God as trinity, especially when there are vivid examples in the scriptures that contradicts what the Nicene Creed purports?

In 181 AD, Long before the formulation of the Nicean Creed in 325, Theophilus of Antioch wrote in an epistle to Autolycus "It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (2:15)

 

[TrueBlue2]

In 181 AD, Long before the formulation of the Nicean Creed in 325, Theophilus of Antioch wrote in an epistle to Autolycus "It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (2:15)

Ok, so it was Theophilus who defined the nature of God. So let me ask a few questions as it relates to the 'trinity'. I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. Just trying to understand how the trinity compares to the word of God:

At the Baptism of Christ a voice was heard from Heaven, right? "This is my Beloved Son." Not sure how Christ could be in the water and in heaven at the same time. Then the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove. Can you explain?

Christ often prayed to the Father, and indicated on multiple occasions that he was here to do the Father's will. Was Christ praying to himself?

At one point on the cross Christ shouted out: "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" Again, did he forsake himself?

 

[jolakoturinn]

Hi TrueBlue2,

The thing about the Nicene Creed is that it is using finite language to describe an infinite being, so I don't have a problem with you describing it as an "incomprehensible description of God as trinity", because God is not completely comprehensible to our minds (He infinite, us finite).

Can you explain what you mean when you say "especially when there are vivid examples in the scriptures that contradicts what the Nicene Creed purports"? For years I didn't really care much about the Nicene Creed, but certainly never found it contradictory to my faith.

God bless,
Mark

 

[Scuba Pete]

Excellent Mark... how DO you describe the indescribable?

incomprehensible description of God

I defy you to come up with a comprehensible description of someone you have never seen. Go ahead, I'll wait.

That being said, I don't buy into the Nicene creed. I just don't need more codification of who God is. God is love. Those who follow God also love just as God loves. Everything else is superfluous.

 

[Francine]

At the Baptism of Christ a voice was heard from Heaven, right? "This is my Beloved Son." Not sure how Christ could be in the water and in heaven at the same time.

Heaven is not a place, it is a state of union with God. Christ never experienced separation from God, even when he was enfleshed on Earth.

Christ often prayed to the Father, and indicated on multiple occasions that he was here to do the Father's will. Was Christ praying to himself?

Christ was praying to his heavenly Father, who is a separate Person of the Trinity, yet there are not three Gods but only one God.

At one point on the cross Christ shouted out: "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" Again, did he forsake himself?

Christ was quoting Psalm 22, which begins thus:
Pss.22:[1] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Christ was in agony, and if you read the rest of the Psalm you will see it is a very beautiful prayer expressing trust in God and imploring for help in the darkest moment. Some theologians say he experienced a loss of faith, or that the Father abandoned him, and that was the efficacious moment of atonement. Catholics, however, believe it was the death of Christ which atones for our sin.

 

[sojourner]

Only if you view the Trinity from a narrow perspective. Father and Son are not the same Person -- they are two diferent Persons. But they are the same God. Christ was both fully human and fully Divine. Your proposition denies Christ this nature.

 

[sojourner]

It was in the third century that the emperor Constantine gathered the best philosophers of his day, along with several Catholic bishops, and threw them in a room together with a mandate to come to a consensus as to the nature of God. These discussions, as one can imagine, were contested and hotly debated for weeks. From this came the doctrine of the 'trinity' which has confused the Christian world for centuries. Over the next 120 years it was revised again and again.

Just wondering why so many Christians stick to this ancient, and man made, and incomprehensible description of God as trinity, especially when there are vivid examples in the scriptures that contradicts what the Nicene Creed purports?

And yet, Christianity was extant in Britain as early as the beginning of the third century. (St. Alban was martyred around 209). Celtic Christianity was separated from Orthodox Christianity for many years, and still it was deeply steeped in the Trinity.

The council of Nicea may have codified the doctrine, but the concept was around long, long before then.

 

[Francine]

Only if you view the Trinity from a narrow perspective. Father and Son are not the same Person -- they are two diferent Persons. But they are the same God. Christ was both fully human and fully Divine. Your proposition denies Christ this nature.

Scripture says Christ voluntarily emptied himself of "equality with God" (Philippians 2). In another place, Christ says the Son does not know the time of the second advent, only the Father. You say Christ remained fully divine. Amen. But it is well within the power of the divine to limit his own power and knowledge for the purpose of living and dying as a man, and if you deny Christ the power to do this, you deny his omnipotence.

 

[Muffled]

Ok, so it was Theophilus who defined the nature of God. So let me ask a few questions as it relates to the 'trinity'. I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. Just trying to understand how the trinity compares to the word of God:

At the Baptism of Christ a voice was heard from Heaven, right? "This is my Beloved Son." Not sure how Christ could be in the water and in heaven at the same time. Then the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove. Can you explain?

Christ often prayed to the Father, and indicated on multiple occasions that he was here to do the Father's will. Was Christ praying to himself?

At one point on the cross Christ shouted out: "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" Again, did he forsake himself?

The niocene creed does not define the nature of God. It defines a Christian belief that a majority of Christians could believe in at the time.

We dont have the full quote of Theophilus but he starts out well to define God. His concept of a trinity appears flawed in that he combines God with attributes of God in it.

You are laboring under a misapprehension. It is not Jesus in physical form that is in Heaven (which is a place) and in the water. It is the spirit of God that is in Heaven and in Jesus (and everywhere else). It is God's nature to be omnipresent.

The Nicene Creed did not define God as a trinity. It was a later creed, the Athanasian Creed that did that and it is in error doing so.

The best one can say for the concept that God is in three persons is that the Bible gives that appearance. However the Biblical reality is not as it appears and those who do not make shallow judgements will be able to see beyond the appearances to the reality.

So in regard to the relationship between Father and Son, it appears that there should be two persons but there is only one. The analogy that I will use here is to say that an echo makes it appear that you are shouting from several hills but the reality is that your voice came from only one source.

 

[jolakoturinn]

The Nicene Creed did not define God as a trinity. It was a later creed, the Athanasian Creed that did that and it is in error doing so.

I don't understand. Why is it error?

 

[Mister Emu]

Why is it error?

It is not in error

 

[tomspug]

Think of it this way:

How can you serve God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit at the same time?

You can't, if they're not the same person! That would be idolatry! Get it?

 

[Francine]

Think of it this way:

How can you serve God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit at the same time?

You can't, if they're not the same person! That would be idolatry! Get it?

On the contrary, it is written (Romans 15:16) That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Here Paul says he ministers the Good News of God, about the atoning death and resurrection of his Son, which involves the sanctifying action of the Holy Ghost. All three members of the Trinity are intimately engaged in conversion.

 

[maggie2]

TrueBlue2,

If you would like some further information on the creation of the Nicean Creed, you might want to read "The Pagan Christ" by Tom Harpur or some of the books written by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. They all provide further information on this that seems quite well researched.

From the reading I've been doing it seems that church history is not as it has been described. There is much that went on that we are just now finding out about. The discovery of the Nag Hammadi texts has made a huge difference in helping to see a more complete picture of the early church.

 

[TrueBlue2]

Thanks Maggie. That should be interesting. I'm not seeing anyone defend the creed as being divine. Everyone seems to agree that it is surrounded in controversy, and that men had a lot to do in defining it. I have checked out other Christian forums and the confusion and chaos surrounding this creed is obvious.

Just really surprised then that so many Christians hold to the 'trinity' concept as though it were gospel, and as though it would be blasphemous to believe anything else. From my simple reading of scripture it is apparent that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct and separate individuals. Jesus Christ was the Son of God - not God.

 

[maggie2]

TrueBlue2,

You're entirely welcime!

There are passagees in the New Testament that give the impression that Jesus was God. I personally don't participate in the Christian religion any more. However, here's something I read once that was helpful in attempting to wrap my head around the idea of the Trinity. If you think of a person like my husband, for example, he's a father AND a son AND a husband, AND an uncle and so on and so on. He's only one person but has many roles. I kind of see the Trinity like that...one being with several roles: Father, Son and Spirit. It helps me to be able to discuss it with others a bit better, I think.