The New Covenant was taken from us possibly?

[Deeje]

I believe the "end times" means the end of an age. An age of rules wrote by man. In my opinion, that means the ending of the New Covenant, and the world fixes itself when it fixes itself.

If that is what you believe, then what are you basing it on? Jesus gave a "sign" so that we would know when he was ruling as king and for the "last days" to begin. (Matthew 24:3-14) All of the features of the sign are in evidence and according to Luke's account only a couple of things remain before Jesus comes with his angelic forces to judge the world of humankind. Only when he has cleansed the earth of wickedness, will he introduce the rulership of his Kingdom earth wide. (Matthew 6: 9-10; Daniel 2:44) Only with the rule of God's Kingdom can his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. This world will never fix itself....Jesus will fix it.

The reason I only bring up America is because that is where I am from and have lived my whole life. I have spent minimal time outside of America, so I don't want to pretend to know anything I don't know.

I know that Americans are somewhat insulated about event that occur outside of your nation. But God is concerned with more than just America....which I believe is the greatest pretend "Christian" nation on earth.(sorry) I think their traditional faith made them very trusting and that trust has been abused and exploited.

I believe that tradition came from the Greeks or Romans not Israelites or from God's Word.

Christendom's traditions are firmly grounded in pagan worship....no doubt about that. You won't find any of their beliefs in the Bible. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

Low key, I think Jesus was just King Solomon sent down to live another life and perform miracles. I also must note that I don't believe Jesus did anything a prophet didn't do before him aside from cast demons out of people. He may have done it on a larger scale than the prophets before him, but it was still all God doing it, and he said it himself.

Actually, the reign of King Solomon was one of the most peaceful and productive in Israel's history, so I believe that Solomon's reign was pictorial of the reign of Christ, giving the Israelites a preview of sorts into how good life can get when they obeyed their God and had his blessing. He was the only King gifted with Godly wisdom, just like Jesus.

I also didn't think Jesus was perfect. It clearly talks about him breaking the Sabbath, and could you imagine walking into some Christian event and flipping over tables at a church? Nahh, God would not want us to do that in my eyes even if you are so special.

Have you examined these things carefully? Think for a moment what Jesus and his apostles actually did? They walked through a wheat field and grabbed a few grains of wheat on their way through. Were they breaking the Sabbath? The Pharisees said they were, but God's law did not. There was to be no "work" on the Sabbath. Harvesting grain was hard work. Grabbing a few handfuls of grain whilst walking through a wheat field was hardly "working". The Pharisees had added to God's law by making ridiculous applications of it. Did you know that they considered killing a flea on the Sabbath as "hunting"? Jesus was the son of God....he would know God's law and the application of it better than anyone.

Now, when Jesus entered the temple and saw the merchants selling sacrificial animals right there in the temple, he lost it! Why? Because they were conducting a commercial enterprise in God's house of worship. Not only that but they were extorting money from their own brothers by charging more than what the animals were worth and charging fees for exchanging currency for donation at the temple. They made God's house into "a den of thieves".
Jesus had every right to be angry. I think you are mistaken there.

I don't know though, that sounds crazy, but then again, I've never been able to make it through The Passion of the Christ. That movie is brutal and savage. It just makes me feel all blehh even thinking about what happened to him. I guess just because you can't do wrong in man's eyes does not mean you can't do wrong in God's Eyes. But who knows? What do I know? I wasn't there for any of this.

You do understand that the Passion of the Christ was only a movie? I prefer the book actually.

It is true that Jesus suffered greatly at the hands of his opposers, but what he achieved in spite of it, should never be devalued.

Do you understand what redemption is and how it was applied in Israel? It explains what Jesus did and why his death bailed us out of bondage.

 

[jfietsam]

I'll start from the bottom and move my way up here. I know it's a movie, and I prefer the Gospels too, but Jesus was brutally beaten before dying on the cross. The Jews I know all say "What did Jesus do" instead of the old WWJD thing and laugh about it. They say, "What did he die for? Does anyone actually know?" They believe Christianity sounds too silly to be true, but they look around at what Christians have done in America and say it must have worked, but that does not mean they feel comfortable joining with it.

Jesus also healed on the Sabbath, and though it seems so minute and nitpicking to hit that, but what does the Torah say is the punishment for breaking the Sabbath? Being cut off from the community, and it almost seems as though God cut him off from the Jewish community. I look at Muhammad and think that's what Jesus probably died for. It does not mean that I believe Islam is correct however. I also believe Christianity has been some sort of bizarre punishment towards the Jews.

He also said the same thing to Jesus as He did to King Solomon. He said to both that this is His son whom His Favor rests on or something along those lines. Matthew states that Jesus will walk among men as a normal man, and everyone will treat him just as they would treat the lesser man. It says that not all who believe in him will make it to his Father's Kingdom, and that he will tell them "I never knew you."

Another thing about Revelation every Christian forgets. It says Jesus will come by surprise like a thief in the night. It also says that there are like 5 things that will be the testimony of Jesus Christ which to me meant no one will know who he is. Then it just gets confusing, because John talks about Jesus and God interchangeably making it difficult to understand who does what. But what if Jesus is just some nice guy living a normal life getting treated like scum of the earth by everyone around him? Then those who treat him like scum of the earth deal with God's Wrath potentially. I don't know though that sounds crazy now that I actually write it out. It's just that the Jews view the Messiah as being this warrior who comes and crumbles kings and does this and that to everyone, but I just can't see it working like that. Like is Jesus gonna be running around with an AK doing drive by's across Babylon or something? Or is he going to come riding on a cloud with a magic wand blessing people? Maybe he'll do drive by's on his cloud? All I'm getting at here is that anything involving Jesus coming to this society is going to sound absurd no matter how you put it.

 

[whirlingmerc]

The whole idea of a New Covenant such as Christians believe is alien to Jewish/Tanakh theology.

The new covenant is described in Jeremiah 31 which is quoted in Hebrews 10 in the New Testament.
There is also some arguments that Psalm 119 was inspired in part by the promise of the new Covenant from Jeremiah.
It appears consistent to me

 

[InChrist]

The new covenant is described in Jeremiah 31 which is quoted in Hebrews 10 in the New Testament.
There is also some arguments that Psalm 119 was inspired in part by the promise of the new Covenant from Jeremiah.
It appears consistent to me

This is the only coherent post I have read in this entire thread.

 

[jfietsam]

It sounds like you've researched into your own religious beliefs plenty to make such a bold statement. Thank you for your opinion.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes, this is true..... but Paul said that the presence of the apostles was acting as a restraint. This was in all probability so that the scriptures could see their completion with the Revelation and the letters of the last apostle John. By the end of the first century, the Christian scriptures were complete.

2 Thessalonians 2: 3-12.....
"Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.. . . . And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is what Paul warned about.....so did Peter. It was "already at work"....but not until the end of the first century was the "restraint" gone.

Good post. Well done.
But I have always read that as referring to our age, not the Apostolic one.
Was it Peter who said the people will have itching ears, and listen to
fables? And was it him that said false prophets would spare not the flock
and would make merchandise of them?

 

[whirlingmerc]

Good post. Well done.
But I have always read that as referring to our age, not the Apostolic one.
Was it Peter who said the people will have itching ears, and listen to
fables? And was it him that said false prophets would spare not the flock
and would make merchandise of them?

We have direct lines to the apostles still pointing to and affirming the four gospels at the end of the century. ( Apostle John --> Polycarp --> Irenaeus ) pointing to the four gospels (as well as others) . I think the solution is not turning away from them but as Paul said turning to the scriptures

"I now commend you to God and to the word of His grace which is able to build you up and give you the inheritance among those who are sanctified" Paul in Acts

 

[jfietsam]

I believe in the Gospels. It's what happened after Jesus' death that I question. It seemed to me that Peter and Paul were both cursed and were the main two starting the religion. I feel that even those two were surprised that God made what they said true. I felt that Judas could have potentially been Peter's son(although it doesn't explicitly state this) who turned Jesus in to be killed. Peter also denied ever knowing Jesus before the crow did its thing. One story says once while the other says twice. Paul(Previously Saul) was persecuting and killing the early Christians, but then he changes sides. There's the story in Acts where the two people are killed by God for not donating all their money to the church with no other witnesses. Would the god of the new covenant do such a thing? Would the god of the new covenant just "forgive" Peter for murder if that potentially happened?

To me, it appeared the early church was already corrupt from the start just as the leaders of my Christian society are all corrupt. There appears to be a new scandal every week involving politicians(most who consider themselves Christian). I remember learning in Sunday school that tax collectors were corrupt and took more money than they were supposed to, but that's not 100% true either although some truth lies there. The Jews were upset about the tax collectors, because previously the Levites ran the government, and they paid their 10% to the Levites. There was no separation of church and state for the Israelites was my understanding. It really changed the way I looked at priests asking for 10% from the congregation.

What does the Christian church do that entitles them to ask for 10%? When did Jesus ever say God was going to create a new set of rules for the early Christians? It was my understanding that he actually said the opposite in Matthew 5:17-20:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Desert Snake]

Biblical argument:
The Covenant of Abraham is unto the 'gentiles', which has more than one meaning. It seems as if the greek word thusly to English, has more than meaning, as well. In other words, 'gentiles' is actually contextual
Note that in traditional Christian belief, the way this is presented in the Bible, makes perfect sense.
•
In the Biblical concept, here, thusly, the Covenant is also connected to the religion that became modern Judaism. Now, the variables, are where the tricky parts to this, are. Like, how are you messing up, in the rules, so forth. Ideally, the Covenant itself lends an inherent inclusion in 'normal' religious discernment , in Spiritual matters, in other words, Jews aren't condemned to Hell, just because they are jewish.
Noted that sometimes, interpretation of what 'gentiles' means, has to be gleaned from the overall ideas of an 'existing Covenant''.

 

[jfietsam]

Biblical argument:
The Covenant of Abraham is unto the 'gentiles', which has more than one meaning. It seems as if the greek word thusly to English, has more than meaning, as well. In other words, 'gentiles' is actually contextual
Note that in traditional Christian belief, the way this is presented in the Bible, makes perfect sense.
•
In the Biblical concept, here, thusly, the Covenant is also connected to the religion that became modern Judaism. Now, the variables, are where the tricky parts to this, are. Like, how are you messing up, in the rules, so forth. Ideally, the Covenant itself lends an inherent inclusion in 'normal' religious discernment , in Spiritual matters, in other words, Jews aren't condemned to Hell, just because they are jewish.
Noted that sometimes, interpretation of what 'gentiles' means, has to be gleaned from the overall ideas of an 'existing Covenant''.

The only covenant between God and Abraham I remember reading about is promising a land to his seed as well as numbering it as countless as the sand, but it does not declare who is to receive the land. Christians really have no part in being an Abrahamic religion in my eyes personally, because the Greeks and Romans were the early Christians who were a totally different group.

The Jews are a small remnant of the Israelites(10 tribes are lost). The Muslims consist of a majority of Abraham's seed. Ishmael had 12 tribes and a daughter Dina who was a wife of Esau(Israel's older brother) making the Edomites, and if you include Abraham's nephew Lot, he had two tribes of his own. I know the Moabites are one, and I believe the Ammonites were the other, but I'm not 100% certain. When Muhammad came, he gathered them into one group.

To me, Christians just claim to be part of the Abrahamic religions, because their book contains the Old Testament, and I was taught in Sunday school that as Christians, we were the good guys in the Old Testament, but once I read the Bible and researched the history of the world, Christians were hardly in the Old Testament.

Before Jesus ever came, the Greeks and Romans already had gyms, olympics, retail therapy, and more of what you find in today's society. They were technology and education driven. The Greeks even worked with King Cyrus of Persia who freed the Jews from the Babylonian captivity. The Greeks and Romans were also polytheists and mocked their gods which seems to have carried over into Christianity by calling Jesus God when the Gospels paint a rather clear picture of Jesus being a completely separate entity from God. Sure, he had a soul just like everyone since the beginning of time, but that's no different from the rest of us.

 

[jfietsam]

I just want to add this, so you understand where my view comes of the Greeks. I did some research on the Romans previously as well.

 

[viole]

Anyone else believe this? Like I believe Jesus was God's messenger who was sent down from Heaven to do a mission undoubtedly. I just don't think he came to do what everyone else seems to think. When I look at America these days, I feel that Christianity hardly has a leg to stand on as it once did. I believe it looks as though we could be in the end times, but would God consider a serious population reduction under the terms of the New Covenant? I know He would under the terms of the Old Covenant. I found Proverbs to be incredibly helpful to living a peaceful life personally.

After finding Proverbs, my life was forever changed, and I've now read two translations of the Bible though I skip the letters in the back for I find them to be incredibly irrelevant to my life personally. I know many may disagree with that, but it's been my experience. I read in the Quran that King Solomon ruled his kingdom with magic, but I found it funny, because I had already read Proverbs(written by Solomon) which describes how each individual should live their lives to find favor in God's Eyes as well as man's while not disturbing society.

No, I think people dont buy it, anymore. You know like those PC and electronics buyers guide on the internet

Mac whatever, buy, just updated
Windows QPC something, dont buy, last update three years ago
Covenant. Strong not buy. Last update 2000 years ago

Ciao

- viole