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The New Covenant was taken from us possibly?

jfietsam

Member
Anyone else believe this? Like I believe Jesus was God's messenger who was sent down from Heaven to do a mission undoubtedly. I just don't think he came to do what everyone else seems to think. When I look at America these days, I feel that Christianity hardly has a leg to stand on as it once did. I believe it looks as though we could be in the end times, but would God consider a serious population reduction under the terms of the New Covenant? I know He would under the terms of the Old Covenant. I found Proverbs to be incredibly helpful to living a peaceful life personally.

After finding Proverbs, my life was forever changed, and I've now read two translations of the Bible though I skip the letters in the back for I find them to be incredibly irrelevant to my life personally. I know many may disagree with that, but it's been my experience. I read in the Quran that King Solomon ruled his kingdom with magic, but I found it funny, because I had already read Proverbs(written by Solomon) which describes how each individual should live their lives to find favor in God's Eyes as well as man's while not disturbing society.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
The whole idea of a New Covenant such as Christians believe is alien to Jewish/Tanakh theology.
 

jfietsam

Member
You say that, but Jews still acknowledge Jesus as someone who came to start the path for when the real Messiah comes just as you guys acknowledge the Ishmaelite who rose up after him. I've read into your Talmud a little too, but I stopped, because anti semitism was awful to deal with. I also have a Tanakh sitting in my closet that I only pull out when something sounds a little funny in the Christian Bible.
 

jfietsam

Member
I believe it's in "The Cow." There's a paragraph in either Chapter 2 or 3 that says this... I got rid of my Quran, so I don't know exactly where it is, but I do know it's titled in bold over a short paragraph.
 

Remté

Active Member
I believe it's in "The Cow." There's a paragraph in either Chapter 2 or 3 that says this... I got rid of my Quran, so I don't know exactly where it is, but I do know it's titled in bold over a short paragraph.
"They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme." They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!" 2:102

This?​
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Anyone else believe this? Like I believe Jesus was God's messenger who was sent down from Heaven to do a mission undoubtedly. I just don't think he came to do what everyone else seems to think. When I look at America these days, I feel that Christianity hardly has a leg to stand on as it once did. I believe it looks as though we could be in the end times, but would God consider a serious population reduction under the terms of the New Covenant? I know He would under the terms of the Old Covenant. I found Proverbs to be incredibly helpful to living a peaceful life personally.
I do not have exactly the same view, however that doesn't mean you are wrong. In fact Jesus himself says that anyone who speaks against the Son of Man will be forgiven, and doesn't it behoove us to ask these kinds of questions?

Think about the story (in the Bible in Judges) of Gideon whose fortunes rise, fall and then rise. He begins as a normal, scared guy in bad times just trying to get along and make his way. He keeps his head down trying to make his grain without attracting attention from raiders. Then despite his own plans and small view of himself he is raised up to popularity and becomes a hero, but then one day he does something that the gods wouldn't like, and some people are not happy about it and want to punish him. They surround his house; but they are in the wrong. The error they make is to try to defend a god that won't defend itself.

The point I am making is that Jesus is not intended to be Gods messenger. That's not his function. If God ever has a defender or messenger they are illegitimate in my opinion (to keep within rules and show respect for others we use this 'My opinion' terminology'). Yes it is my opinion, my fairly informed opinion. Nobody can defend God. Nobody can speak for God. God speaks for God. If God can't speak for God, then what is the point? Why would God ask me to speak to you on God's behalf? It would make no sense to me. Its not what the Bible is trying to do.

What does make sense? We have to think about this. We have brains, after all. Surely God and the Bible writers are expecting us to use them? Otherwise they'd be telling us to sit down, shut up and listen; but that isn't what they say. They do say to shut up though when it comes to representing God. When it comes to that I think they say "Shut up." I'll tell you what I hate most is when someone in modern times acts like God to other people and uses this phrase "Thus sayeth the LORD." Every time they do this it always turns out bad. I've never seen it turn into anything good, but people listen to it. It always has something to do with money, sex or influence. Maybe for you its hard to believe people actually say these things, but I have been in these situations.

After finding Proverbs, my life was forever changed, and I've now read two translations of the Bible though I skip the letters in the back for I find them to be incredibly irrelevant to my life personally. I know many may disagree with that, but it's been my experience. I read in the Quran that King Solomon ruled his kingdom with magic, but I found it funny, because I had already read Proverbs(written by Solomon) which describes how each individual should live their lives to find favor in God's Eyes as well as man's while not disturbing society.
The Quran is quite old, and it is valued by many people. My opinion is that is all there is to say about it. I won't let anyone tell me what God wants to say to me: end of story. I won't accept miracles or proofs or complicated ideas. If God speaks it is a sound heard everywhere that permeates all of existence and time, and I will hear it along with anyone else who is listening.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Anyone else believe this? Like I believe Jesus was God's messenger who was sent down from Heaven to do a mission undoubtedly. I just don't think he came to do what everyone else seems to think. When I look at America these days, I feel that Christianity hardly has a leg to stand on as it once did. I believe it looks as though we could be in the end times, but would God consider a serious population reduction under the terms of the New Covenant? I know He would under the terms of the Old Covenant. I found Proverbs to be incredibly helpful to living a peaceful life personally.

After finding Proverbs, my life was forever changed, and I've now read two translations of the Bible though I skip the letters in the back for I find them to be incredibly irrelevant to my life personally. I know many may disagree with that, but it's been my experience. I read in the Quran that King Solomon ruled his kingdom with magic, but I found it funny, because I had already read Proverbs(written by Solomon) which describes how each individual should live their lives to find favor in God's Eyes as well as man's while not disturbing society.

Your point seems vague.
Yes, according to the NT these are "end times"
The bible describes what it means by end times.
The fall of Christianity (at the time it wasn't even
a thing) ie no more the voice of the bride and groom,
no more the candle, but a cage of every hateful and
unclean bird.
The return of the Jews to Israel (Jesus said this
would happen "when the Gentiles time is fulfilled")
And of course, "times of troubles."
But we aren't there just yet - there are still things
to happen.

ps Don't give any credence to Islamic paganism.
 

jfietsam

Member
"They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme." They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!" 2:102

This?​

This is to you and Phillip in regards to Islam. Personally, I felt they were trying to discount the message King Solomon sent by just saying he ruled with magic, but if you read Proverbs for yourself before trying to judge the content, you may understand. I will give some credit to the Muslims, because the Quran encouraged me to continue on my search for understanding God. I found all my complaints towards Christianity supported by the Quran although I found no real meaningful information on how I should live my life personally. I felt that I also found a lot of American society's rules written in the Quran that I didn't agree with. Not long after, I find out that Muslims have been influencing American culture via social media for who knows how long.

I do not have exactly the same view, however that doesn't mean you are wrong. In fact Jesus himself says that anyone who speaks against the Son of Man will be forgiven, and doesn't it behoove us to ask these kinds of questions?

Think about the story (in the Bible in Judges) of Gideon whose fortunes rise, fall and then rise. He begins as a normal, scared guy in bad times just trying to get along and make his way. He keeps his head down trying to make his grain without attracting attention from raiders. Then despite his own plans and small view of himself he is raised up to popularity and becomes a hero, but then one day he does something that the gods wouldn't like, and some people are not happy about it and want to punish him. They surround his house; but they are in the wrong. The error they make is to try to defend a god that won't defend itself.

The point I am making is that Jesus is not intended to be Gods messenger. That's not his function. If God ever has a defender or messenger they are illegitimate in my opinion (to keep within rules and show respect for others we use this 'My opinion' terminology'). Yes it is my opinion, my fairly informed opinion. Nobody can defend God. Nobody can speak for God. God speaks for God. If God can't speak for God, then what is the point? Why would God ask me to speak to you on God's behalf? It would make no sense to me. Its not what the Bible is trying to do.

What does make sense? We have to think about this. We have brains, after all. Surely God and the Bible writers are expecting us to use them? Otherwise they'd be telling us to sit down, shut up and listen; but that isn't what they say. They do say to shut up though when it comes to representing God. When it comes to that I think they say "Shut up." I'll tell you what I hate most is when someone in modern times acts like God to other people and uses this phrase "Thus sayeth the LORD." Every time they do this it always turns out bad. I've never seen it turn into anything good, but people listen to it. It always has something to do with money, sex or influence. Maybe for you its hard to believe people actually say these things, but I have been in these situations.


The Quran is quite old, and it is valued by many people. My opinion is that is all there is to say about it. I won't let anyone tell me what God wants to say to me: end of story. I won't accept miracles or proofs or complicated ideas. If God speaks it is a sound heard everywhere that permeates all of existence and time, and I will hear it along with anyone else who is listening.

I believe that God used to actually speak to prophets different than He communicates with us today. His methods of communication have adapted over the course of time as well, beginning with speaking to Moses face to face through a burning bush and a cloud on Mount Sinai. What also makes sense to me is Proverbs says two things in regards to your point of Gideon. One: Pride comes before destruction. Two: Don't judge your leaders. God will punish the leaders for their sins accordingly and as citizens, we simply don't know what factors play a part in leaders' decisions. I honestly do not vote although I wish things were different. My views of what the government should look like are totally different from the constitution. I believe in the Torah's guidelines. I felt that priests who fear the Lord should run the government, and it should be much smaller.

If people want to sin, let them so long as it does not hurt others. However, in the church, you serve the Lord, or you're not welcome until you want to make changes. It's not fair to the followers to have sinners living as thorns in their sides. The main sins I think of in today's times would be drug users, prostitutes, and people of that nature. They are only hurting themselves, and God is better at correcting people like that than I am. I myself was a drug addict and even drug dealer for a few years of my life at different points in time. God managed to bring me back to Him while maintaining a clean criminal record. That's because He already placed a system of checks and balances in sin to where over the course of any considerable period of time, you will lose. There is no winning when you take part in sin. Some bring more consequences than others, but by overcoming as much as possible, that's where true happiness is found.
 

Remté

Active Member
This is to you and Phillip in regards to Islam. Personally, I felt they were trying to discount the message King Solomon sent by just saying he ruled with magic, .
I don't see where it says he ruled with magic? Wasn't that a false accusation against him?
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
We diverge.
What also makes sense to me is Proverbs says two things in regards to your point of Gideon. One: Pride comes before destruction.
It appears that in context it is saying that receiving wisdom requires humility, that its better to not be a king but to appease them, because they are murderers. "Better a patient person than a warrior." "Gray hair is a crown of splendor." In ancient times pride and a good death are held up as the virtues we should strive for! They consider a death of old age as shameful! The proverb is saying the opposite: that its better to live a long time and reject war. Its separating Jews from other nations. I don't think its against having some personal pride if you do a good job or have skills or do good things. It is talking against the warrior mentality probably and its twisted views about glorious deaths. Really people were and still are sometimes so stupid about that, as if dying valiantly is some kind of reason for living.

Two: Don't judge your leaders.
Mmmm. Not how I read it. More like this: don't be the one to bring the charge against them. Be smart, and let other people do it.

God will punish the leaders for their sins accordingly
I have not seen this principle at work in my lifetime, unless you count "Being an idiot, a jerk and a vacuous sleaze-ball" as a punishment. I'm also not sure where Proverbs indicates fairness or payback for wrongs done. It seems to suggest luck is involved but that good triumphs eventually -- which does appear true over the long run of many generations in certain civilizations. For example Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." which seems true in Western civ. Things have actually gotten better for us, but we don't see evil leaders always getting what they deserve. Often they get to live easy lives and die of old age.

and as citizens, we simply don't know what factors play a part in leaders' decisions.
We have brains. They have brains. In that we are equals. So they got lucky, and so they had smart parents. That doesn't mean we should cede morality to them.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member

Islam was a religion which borrowed heavily from both
the Old and New Testaments.
The Quran is cited on Wikipedia often in regards to
bible questions. So if you look up King Solomon you
find quotes from the Muslim bible. They have no right
doing that - Islam didn't exist in Solomon's day and
the Muslims have not found any new documents on
the topic. They just made things up for their Arabic
bible.
 

Remté

Active Member
Islam was a religion which borrowed heavily from both
the Old and New Testaments.
The Quran is cited on Wikipedia often in regards to
bible questions. So if you look up King Solomon you
find quotes from the Muslim bible. They have no right
doing that - Islam didn't exist in Solomon's day and
the Muslims have not found any new documents on
the topic. They just made things up for their Arabic
bible.
They don't have a bible. Do you have anything better to refer us to but wikipedia?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Hello and
sign0016.gif
to RF.

Anyone else believe this?

Yes!.....if you are asking if Christendom has ever been in the new covenant in the first place?

Jesus and his apostles foretold that a fake form of Christianity would spread like weeds, once the apostles had passed away. So from the second century onward we see a slow and steady decline in Christianity until the takeover by Roman Catholicism....and the rest as they say, is history. The mother church spawned many daughters, who all share unchristian traits with her.

Like I believe Jesus was God's messenger who was sent down from Heaven to do a mission undoubtedly. I just don't think he came to do what everyone else seems to think. When I look at America these days, I feel that Christianity hardly has a leg to stand on as it once did. I believe it looks as though we could be in the end times, but would God consider a serious population reduction under the terms of the New Covenant? I know He would under the terms of the Old Covenant. I found Proverbs to be incredibly helpful to living a peaceful life personally.

Why only look at America? There is a whole world out there beyond America that is spiritually dead. We are definitely in the "end times" and prophesy is being fulfilled right before our eyes. Most are in denial, but at the final judgment Jesus will reject the fake Christians as those he "never knew". (Matthew 7:21-23) Fake Christians are easy to spot...they never obey Christ in anything that is difficult. (Matthew 7:13-14) The road to life was "cramped and narrow" for a reason....not a path for the faint-hearted, the insincere, or the lazy.

After finding Proverbs, my life was forever changed, and I've now read two translations of the Bible though I skip the letters in the back for I find them to be incredibly irrelevant to my life personally. I know many may disagree with that, but it's been my experience. I read in the Quran that King Solomon ruled his kingdom with magic, but I found it funny, because I had already read Proverbs(written by Solomon) which describes how each individual should live their lives to find favor in God's Eyes as well as man's while not disturbing society.

The truth is not contradictory. Solomon was gifted with God's wisdom...that is not magic.

Solomon's concluding words in Ecclesiastes 12:11-14 are a summation of his godly wisdom....

"The words of the wise are like oxgoads, and their collected sayings are like firmly embedded nails; they have been given from one shepherd. 12 As for anything besides these, my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh.

13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man. 14 For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad."

What do you believe about the "end times"?
 
Last edited:

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
.... So from the second century onward we see a slow and steady decline in Christianity until the takeover by Roman Catholicism....

Don't focus too much on the Second Century. False religion was alive and
kicking in the First Century, in fact it was right there in the Apostolic Church.
Example - Diotrephes was either a minister or elder of a church, he railed
against the Apostle John and forbade his own people from having any
dealings with the old man.
You read this all the way through the Epistles. Jude in particular was quite
bitter about it.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Why do you think Muslims made things up? Have you read the Quran?

We read the story of Isaac and Ishmael.
Ishmael is considered the progenitor of
the Arab nations. Muslims have changed
the story of Abraham offering up Isaac
to offering up Ishmael.

Quote - "It is quite clear that Ishmael was
the son to be sacrificed and not Isaac, peace
be upon both of them. We also saw how
corrupt the Bible is. The Bible is not reliable.
It was badly tampered with by man’s alterations
and narrations, that we no longer can tell which
parts of it are the True Living Words of GOD
Almighty, and which aren’t."
Ishmael or Isaac? The Koran or the Bible?

And you can read extensive stories about Ishmael
and his mother that came from the Arabian
peninsula some 2,500 years after Genesis was
written.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Don't focus too much on the Second Century. False religion was alive and
kicking in the First Century, in fact it was right there in the Apostolic Church.
Example - Diotrephes was either a minister or elder of a church, he railed
against the Apostle John and forbade his own people from having any
dealings with the old man.
You read this all the way through the Epistles. Jude in particular was quite
bitter about it.

Yes, this is true..... but Paul said that the presence of the apostles was acting as a restraint. This was in all probability so that the scriptures could see their completion with the Revelation and the letters of the last apostle John. By the end of the first century, the Christian scriptures were complete.

2 Thessalonians 2: 3-12.....
"Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.. . . . And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is what Paul warned about.....so did Peter. It was "already at work"....but not until the end of the first century was the "restraint" gone.
 

jfietsam

Member
Hello and
sign0016.gif
to RF.



Yes!.....if you are asking if Christendom was ever been in the new covenant in the first place?

Jesus and his apostles foretold that a fake form of Christianity would spread like weeds, once the apostles had passed away. So from the second century onward we see a slow and steady decline in Christianity until the takeover by Roman Catholicism....and the rest as they say, is history. The mother church spawned many daughters, who all share unchristian traits with her.



Why only look at America? There is a whole world out there beyond America that is spiritually dead. We are definitely in the "end times" and prophesy is being fulfilled right before our eyes. Most are in denial, but at the final judgment Jesus will reject the fake Christians as those he "never knew". (Matthew 7:21-23) Fake Christians are easy to spot...they never obey Christ in anything that is difficult. (Matthew 7:13-14) The road to life was "cramped and narrow" for a reason....not a path for the faint-hearted, the insincere, or the lazy.



The truth is not contradictory. Solomon was gifted with God's wisdom...that is not magic.

Solomon's concluding words in Ecclesiastes 12:11-14 are a summation of his godly wisdom....

"The words of the wise are like oxgoads, and their collected sayings are like firmly embedded nails; they have been given from one shepherd. 12 As for anything besides these, my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh.

13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man. 14 For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad."

What do you believe about the "end times"?

I believe the "end times" means the end of an age. An age of rules wrote by man. In my opinion, that means the ending of the New Covenant, and the world fixes itself when it fixes itself. The part about King Solomon ruling his kingdom with magic is something the Quran says about him. Muslims may or may not have read the Bible. However, Ishmaelites and Israelites did interact and have somewhat positive relationships in the Bible.

King Solomon had an alliance with Egypt, and Daniel prophesied in Babylon which is present day Baghdad, Iraq. What am I getting at here? They didn't need a Bible, because they just had to ask Muhammad, "Well what about this and this and this that this guy that guy and the other guy said?" Then Muhammad received his answers from his "jin" or whatever he called the lying spirits. One thing to remember about Muhammad that goes back to God communicating different over the course of time is that he became schizophrenic at the end of his life and was severely haunted from what I read.

The reason I only bring up America is because that is where I am from and have lived my whole life. I have spent minimal time outside of America, so I don't want to pretend to know anything I don't know.

And for the record, I tip my hat to King Solomon. Or I would if I thought it was really some sign of respect, but I believe that tradition came from the Greeks or Romans not Israelites or from God's Word. Low key, I think Jesus was just King Solomon sent down to live another life and perform miracles. I also must note that I don't believe Jesus did anything a prophet didn't do before him aside from cast demons out of people. He may have done it on a larger scale than the prophets before him, but it was still all God doing it, and he said it himself. I also didn't think Jesus was perfect. It clearly talks about him breaking the Sabbath, and could you imagine walking into some Christian event and flipping over tables at a church? Nahh, God would not want us to do that in my eyes even if you are so special. I just don't think any of his disciples judged him. I don't know though, that sounds crazy, but then again, I've never been able to make it through The Passion of the Christ. That movie is brutal and savage. It just makes me feel all blehh even thinking about what happened to him. I guess just because you can't do wrong in man's eyes does not mean you can't do wrong in God's Eyes. But who knows? What do I know? I wasn't there for any of this.
 
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