The New Atheists: "Communists aren't atheists" and its wider social implications

[Laika]

Not all communism is Marxism. There's quite a bit of religious communism out there.

For instance: http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/hutterites/

Yes, but the most successful, powerful and popular branch of Communism was Marxist and was Atheist. There were some groups who tried to combine Marxism and Religion, but they are extremely small and confined amongst a handful of intellectuals. So the main problem of Marxist-Communism's relationship to Atheism still stands.

 

[mindlight]

I don't think there was ever a politically succesful Nietzsche-based regime,

Not directly but most of the most stupid concepts of the Nazis were drawn directly from Nietzsche and Hitler was a fan , even if Nietzsche probably would not have been impressed with him.

and Communism and Maoism have failed mainly because they were far too authoritarian and therefore self-contradictory for their own good.

Maybe you have not heard of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. There was nothing self contradictory about their authoritarianism. They failed cause they were godless and poor economical understanding.

Atheism proper is quite the different beast.

Atheism proper is mere godlessness. But it is also interesting that however it outworks it usually fails.

The biological theory of evolution is almost as solid, albeit for entirely different reasons. You are lumping together very different things.

It is based on a materialistic naturalism and the theory has been accepted by most atheists with the exception of Nietzsche who had nothing to say about it and would have disagree that survival was more primary than power. The point was that most modern atheists are liberals and evolutionists. You would appear to agree with this since you mourn communist authoritarianism and celebrate evolution.

That is an entirely different can of worms, or rather two very different cans.

Personally I attribute it in Russia to the inevitable reaction to the repression against Orthodox Christianity, and in China to the ethically questionable proselitism of Christianity.

Also, I don't think it is fair nor enlightening to confuse Christianity with religion.

Nor is it at all clear what you mean by "viability of atheism".

The point is that everywhere that atheists take real control there is a systemic failure of society in the long run. In short atheism does not work - why should this conclusion differ whatever new form it takes.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Are there actually any communists left?

 

[Laika]

Are there actually any communists left?

China, Cuba, Vietnam and Laos still retain "Marxist-Leninist" governments. The market reforms haven't changed the fact that they are still run by communist parties or adhere to communist ideology (which doesn't rule out the use of free markets under socialism before you ask ). North Korea has tried to develop a new ideology of national self-reliance, "Juche", but still considers itself "socialist" as the lower phase of communism. On a lesser note, Communist (Moaist) revolutionaries are still at work in Nepal and India trying to overthrow their governments. So yeah, over a billion people still live under communist governments of varying degrees.

 

[mindlight]

It isn't. It's anti-theism. Laika simply doesn't appear to understand the difference between atheism and anti-theism.

There is no difference , if you are not for God then you are against Him.

What atheists do practically or philosophically with their godlessness cannot be differentiated from the unbelief in which these thoughts and actions are rooted.

 

[Laika]

There is no difference , if you are not for God then you are against Him.

What atheists do practically or philosophically with their godlessness cannot be differentiated from the unbelief in which these thoughts and actions are rooted.

Atheists aren't a homogenous group and there are several competiting philosophical positions which have varying degrees of anti-theism or anti-religious beliefs. The more "secular" will oppose only religious fundamentalism or theocratic systems, but "state atheist" systems will oppose religion fall stop (although often they recognise only the goal of eliminating religion but accept it can't be done overnight and that a variety of methods- both coercive and non-coercive need to be employed). there are graduations in between, but otherwise I agree there isn't a huge gulf between atheism and anti-theism.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

China, Cuba, Vietnam and Laos still retain "Marxist-Leninist" governments.

Do you know what religions are practised in modern China?

 

[Laika]

Do you know what religions are practised in modern China?

I looked it up a while back. Here's the bit on China's wikipedia's entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Religion
There's a pie chart, so I'll copy the stats here.

Not Religious/Traditional Worship/Taoism: 87.4%
Buddhism: 6.2%
Christianity: 2.3%
Folk Religious Sects: 2.2%
Islam: 1.7%
Other faiths: 0.2%

There is also a link to a much bigger article as well that may be of interest. (see here).

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It's worth observing that non-theist doesn't necessarily mean non-religious.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is no difference , if you are not for God then you are against Him.

In that case, I am waiting for his surrender terms.

You're welcome.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's worth observing that non-theist doesn't necessarily mean non-religious.

Ain't that the truth?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

...if you are not for God then you are against Him.

Which God do you mean? I'm certainly not for the Old Testament God, he comes across as a vengeful tyrant. Or did you have some other God in mind? There seem to be so many versions of "God", it's difficult to keep track of.

 

[LuisDantas]

Never mind, I will accept the surrender of any of them. I do not discriminate.

 

[ArtieE]

Yes, but the most successful, powerful and popular branch of Communism was Marxist and was Atheist.

Anti-theist. Learn the difference.

 

[ArtieE]

There is no difference , if you are not for God then you are against Him.

LOL atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of gods (plural). Atheists are neither for nor against gods, they just don't believe they exist. Those who are against belief that gods exist are called ANTI-THEISTS.

 

[ArtieE]

there are graduations in between, but otherwise I agree there isn't a huge gulf between atheism and anti-theism.

So you don't think there's a huge gulf between people who are simply not theists and people like Stalin?

 

[ArtieE]

What atheists do practically or philosophically with their godlessness cannot be differentiated from the unbelief in which these thoughts and actions are rooted.

And KKK and IS and al-Qaida and Muslim terrorist suicide bombers are all theists. See what theism leads to.

 

[Laika]

So you don't think there's a huge gulf between people who are simply not theists and people like Stalin?

if you read the start of my reply, I am trying to demonstrate that this isn't a simple "yes" or "no" answer to the question. There are multple "atheisms" and that makes defining the relationship between atheism and anti-thesism even harder as there is no one "relationship" between the two. If you kindly stop trying to force me to pick a label that would be very welcome.

Atheists aren't a homogenous group and there are several competiting philosophical positions which have varying degrees of anti-theism or anti-religious beliefs. The more "secular" will oppose only religious fundamentalism or theocratic systems, but "state atheist" systems will oppose religion fall stop (although often they recognise only the goal of eliminating religion but accept it can't be done overnight and that a variety of methods- both coercive and non-coercive need to be employed)

 

[ArtieE]

if you read the start of my reply, I am trying to demonstrate that this isn't a simple "yes" or "no" answer to the question. There are multple "atheisms"

No, actually there is only one "atheism". The absence of belief in the existence of gods.

 

[Laika]

No, actually there is only one "atheism". The absence of belief in the existence of gods.

For the record, that's why we disagree.