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The Necessity of the Crucifix

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What does the expression 'defeated death' mean?
Death is seen as the result of sin (sin is separation from God -- death is also separation from God). God defeated death by becoming one of us, by dying as one of us, and by rising again, as a "new being."

Because we now stand reconciled with God, death can no longer claim us for ever. (There is no death where God is concerned. If we are "with God" -- reconciled to God -- then there is no longer death for us). We have become "new beings," in that sense.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
We do not have a collective fallen nature

I disagree. Our collective "fallen nature" resides in our wisdom -- in our free will. All humans decide whether to freely acknowledge a relationship with God.
 

Sonic247

Well-Known Member
2 FVM- You're asking whether God could have forgiven Adam and Eve, (well it's not just them it's all of us, every man will die for his own sins), maybe he could have, but there is no point in worrying about that now because obviously we are not in that case. But the world is under the curse that is written in the law- "the Lord shall give thee a trembeling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind. And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee" The blessing that God said for Moses to say to Israel was "God be merciful to you and bless you and cause his face to shine upon you." but God said he would turn away his face because of the evil of our doings, and to have God turn his face from you is one of the most bitter things.
 

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
I disagree. Our collective "fallen nature" resides in our wisdom -- in our free will. All humans decide whether to freely acknowledge a relationship with God.


Why do you see those things as a fallen nature? The free will and the wisdom are gifts not curses. With that said I can definitely acknowledge that we collectively can use these things as means of our own destruction, but that it merely the test not a curse. With free will and our reasoning and logic we can be led astray, but due to those same attributes we can also attain nearness to Allah and piety and righteousness.

This almost leads me to the faith/good works argument.....almost. I think it's related but not totally. I believe that good works in the form of following the commandments of Allah as best as possible are the tools by which salvation, piety, righteousness, and forgiveness are attained. The reason for this is because the commands aren't a set of rules to make life difficult. They are designed to bring about a certain attitude, demeanor, character, and healing for the self and humanity. They are designed to assist us in our inner struggle to become better selves as according to Allah what is better. They help us to actually not follow in shaytan's footsteps, because many times that isn't so black and white. There are benefits and healing for our spiritual maladies we suffer so greatly from. These spritual ailments can be overcome through faith first, but also a plethora of good works. The works are pleasing to Allah, but the benefit is for us as Allah does not need nor require for His sake anything including our worship in its various forms.

According to my beliefs Allah did forgive Adam and his wife. For every man is resposible for his own actions. If you go back and re-read the verses I quoted, you will notice a seemingly small thing, and one reason why mankind was better in his disposition than was shaytan. When shaytan became who he is today, he laid the blame at Allah's feet, by saying 'You have led me astray'. When Adam realized his mistake he said 'We have wronged ourselves'. Small words and a big difference between them. It is shaytan's way to blame God among others forhis own evil deeds and misfortunes, and it is the righteous way bestowed upon us by Allah that we take responsibility for what we have done whatever it is, and whatever consequences are wrought from it. I said this because Allah reprimanded only Adam and Eve, and then forgave them also, and remained in communication to Adam thereby letting Adam know that he was not cut off.
 
Perhaps the punishment for sin was death, but couldn't God by virtue of being who He is simply forgave both Adam and his wife?
God could also simply reverse gravity or make pigs fly...why doesn't He? :shrug: God set up the universe with consistent rules; one of them was and is that the punishment for sin is death. Thus, forgiveness is only possible when someone else pays the price. Christians believe that Christ did so for us.

Why did that sin have to spread?
It's a concept called original sin (something being discussed in another thread at the moment, I believe). Once sin entered the human race, it corrupted the race from that point on.

Of course Allah created us imperfect but why is that inherently a bad thing?
Why is disobedience from God a bad thing? Coming from a theist I find this an odd question.

Had God wanted a perfect servant He would have created them, He obviously did not want that.
On the contrary, God does mandate perfection, as Jesus said: "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48
 

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
Why is disobedience from God a bad thing? Coming from a theist I find this an odd question.

It isn't odd to me because I do not equate imperfection with disobedience. I also do no believe Allah wants us to be perfect so much as He wants us to benefit ourselves through obedience to Him. I guess we could then argue what is perfection. I believe we can have perfection of belief, but not perfection of action. I think that is the perfection we are called upon to have. Even in Quran Allah commands us to enter perfectly into Islam. This means that we must have iman perfectly which is totally possible. Perfection of action is not for us, because even if we commit a wrong action by mistake it is still the wrong thing to do. We are inherently prone to mistakes, but if we were not prone to this we would have no reason to improve. One cannot improve upon perfection.
 
It isn't odd to me because I do not equate imperfection with disobedience.
Imperfection leads to disobedience, does it not? Thus if we want to eliminate disobedience, it's necessary to go to the source and eliminate imperfection.

I also do no believe Allah wants us to be perfect so much as He wants us to benefit ourselves through obedience to Him. I guess we could then argue what is perfection. I believe we can have perfection of belief, but not perfection of action. I think that is the perfection we are called upon to have.
Jesus said we are to be perfect just as the Father is perfect...I'm pretty sure God has perfection of belief and action.:)

Even in Quran Allah commands us to enter perfectly into Islam. This means that we must have iman perfectly which is totally possible. Perfection of action is not for us, because even if we commit a wrong action by mistake it is still the wrong thing to do.
I do not believe an honest mistake is the same thing as sin, so I don't really see that as an issue.

We are inherently prone to mistakes, but if we were not prone to this we would have no reason to improve.
True. That doesn't mean that sinning is acceptable or right, however.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I have always wondered about the need for Jesus to be crucified. I have always heard that it was because of original sin. My question is if God is indeed God and presumably all powerful, why did He not simply forgive Adam and his wife? Was it beyond His scope to do so? Was the sin that bad?

Here's the LDS perspective, muslimah. We believe (unlike other Christians) that we existed in spirit form prior to being born to our earthly parents and lived for an immeasurable length of time (probably billions of years) in the presence of God. We believe He presented us with a plan and allowed us to choose whether or not to participate. The plan would involve the experience of mortality. We would each receive a physical body and spend a period of time here on earth. While here, we would learn to discern between good and evil. We would be provided with guidelines and directives from His chosen prophets, but ultimately we would be required to walk in faith.

Now, there was a "catch," although it was fully explained to us, so I don't suppose "catch" is the right word to use, after all. We were told that in order to return to God's presence, we would have to be as innocent and clean when we died as we were when we left him to go to earth. If we were able to live perfectly, never ever sinning, we would have the benefit of all of the knowledge we had gained by the experience and would be rewarded beyond our wildest dreams when we returned. If, however, were to sin along the way, we would be forbidden to ever return to Him again. God has what you might call a "zero tolerance" policy towards sin, and even one, small sin would spoil the required perfect performance.

It was then that the pre-mortal Jesus Christ, the only one of His spirit children to be as perfect in every way as He was, stepped forward and agreed to help the rest of us out. He knew that He could lead a completely sinless life, but that we couldn't. He loved all of us as much as our Father in Heaven did, and He wanted us to not only be able to experience mortality but to return to God's presence. He therefore offered to pay the price to redeem each and every one of us who would sincerely repent whenever we fell short, and who would have faith that He would keep this promise and guarantee that we would not be eternally lost.

If you're still reading... God did not simply forgive Adam and Eve because to do so would be to disregard His own rules. He had warned them of the consequences for disobedience and can always be trusted to follow through with anything He says He will do. It was not beyond His scope to simply forgive them, but to do so would have gone against His "zero tolerance" policy. The sin, per se, wasn't all that bad. As a matter of fact, they really didn't "sin" at all, at least not by eating the forbidden fruit. They didn't even understand the difference between right and wrong before they ate it. After they ate it, though, they became accountable for their misdeeds, which is where Jesus Christ's sacrifice came into play. Since He was perfect, He was able to pay the price where they couldn't, thus satisfying both the demands of mercy and the demands of justice.
 

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
I get it katz. Very in depth explaination but I still disagree a bit. This is where we differ on just what is forgiveness. In my understanding when Allah forgives it does actually wipe it from the account of the person. It is a complete forgiveness that includes forgetting about it. Meaning not only is the deed forgiven, but the angels who recorded the deed forget it, the limbs that you used to commit the deed forget, the ground you commited the deed on forget it. I guess you wonder how these things know what you did. According to Islam on the day of judgement the witnesses will be brought forth against you when you are accused of a wrong doing. If there was no person around, the angels who recorded the deed are made to witness, whatever body part was involved, i.e., hands, mouth, feet, are all made to witness to your wrongdoing. So all in all the slate is wiped clean everytime a person truly repents. Repentance is when one recognizes, admits to the wrongdoing, then makes a firm intention to never do it again. For everytime a person does that his sins are removed and given a chance to start clean. All this is done without an innocent sacrifice having to undergo any hardship for the stuff I do in my own life that are contrary to Allah commands.

Both the christian and the muslim concentrate on leaving this world in the same state of obediance we entered it in. We have a different way of trying to achieve it though.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
The ultimate human sacrifice / martyr-ism certainly ups the ante in the religion game
Death and resurrection is an old old belief system
As far as the dying on a cross . . . plenty of others before and after.
 

Sonic247

Well-Known Member
but if we were not prone to this we would have no reason to improve. One cannot improve upon perfection.
That would be so great, forget improving I want to be there already, I struggle with sin every day it will be nice when the battle is finally over. But I don't think people have perfection of faith either, Jesus said if we had faith the size of a mustard seed we could tell a mountain to go jump into the sea and it would listen to us. not even close.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
I quoted the entire story from one part of Quran, in surah Anfal. I did so to give an entire synopsis of why I do not believe the crucifixion to have been necessary at all. The incarnation of God to human form, and thusly his death, was a completely unnecessary series of events. All of this presupposes that Adam had something inherently wrong with him, or that he acquired it through an act of apparent disobedience. In response Allah punished both with death, and having to dwell on earth for a time.
Not for us. Death is not a punishment, it is a consequence. There is nothing immortal except God. God is the source and sustainer of all life and therefore as a consequence of Adsam's turn from God, he nad his descendants are mortal. This is not punishment any more than I would have been punished with electrocution if I chose to touch an electric fence. The Incarnation, God sharing human nature, was necessary to repair that communion. Man is incapable of reaching back up to God and repairing what was broken so God comes down to man. The sacrifice of Christ doesn't start with His being nailed to the cross, but with Him 'emptying Himself' to become Incarnate as a mortal man.

I say it was not a punishment. It was simply fate written by Allah. Adam was fated to have eaten of that fruit. I am sure he felt punished, I mean he was removed from paradise so that's gotta be a sore spot for him. Overall though, it was Allah's design for the human being. Had Adam not eaten that fruit, he would never have come to earth, he would never have to improve upon himself, but it would have been contrary to his nature.
I agree with you, as I have said, that it was not punishment, but I don't believe it was wrought by God. That seems rather to violate free will and we really have no concept of fate in that sense. Even if Adam had not fallen, though, he still would not have been perfect. Perfection can never be achieved - becoming perfect as the Father is perfect (theosis) is an eternal progression even for those in heaven. An unfallen Adam would still have had plenty of opportunity for progress, at least in Orthodox Christian belief.

James
 

uumckk16

Active Member
Death is seen as the result of sin (sin is separation from God -- death is also separation from God). God defeated death by becoming one of us, by dying as one of us, and by rising again, as a "new being."

Because we now stand reconciled with God, death can no longer claim us for ever. (There is no death where God is concerned. If we are "with God" -- reconciled to God -- then there is no longer death for us). We have become "new beings," in that sense.

I love your outlook on this :) I'm always a bit confused, though - what about the people who lived before Christ? If Christ was the Reconciler, how are those who lived before Him reconciled?
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Because Christ reconciled all humanity to God...not individuals.

Indeed. Hence the fact that the icon of the Resurrection shows Christ freeing the dead, symbolised by Adam, from Hades whilst standing on the wreckage of the doors that once kept the dead in there. (Just to be clear, this is symbolic as much of iconography is).

James
 

Special Revelation

Active Member
Because Christ reconciled all humanity to God...not individuals.

I think I asked this question before but I don't believe I received an answer. Do you believe in universal salvation? It appears you are proclaiming that all mankind is or will be reconciled to God. If so, could you please explain how you understand 2 Cor 5?

2 Corinthians 5 - The Ministry of Reconciliation

Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I think I asked this question before but I don't believe I received an answer. Do you believe in universal salvation? It appears you are proclaiming that all mankind is or will be reconciled to God. If so, could you please explain how you understand 2 Cor 5?

2 Corinthians 5 - The Ministry of Reconciliation

Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This is actually a great scriptural proof for universal salvation. Look at Vs. 19: "...that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." What does that mean if not universal? Also, "We are convinced that one died for all..." Seems plain to me that Christ effected grace for all humanity.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
This is actually a great scriptural proof for universal salvation. Look at Vs. 19: "...that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." What does that mean if not universal? Also, "We are convinced that one died for all..." Seems plain to me that Christ effected grace for all humanity.

I'm out of frubals, but you are quite correct, I think.
 
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