The Necessity of the Crucifix

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I have always wondered about the need for Jesus to be crucified. I have always heard that it was because of original sin. My question is if God is indeed God and presumably all powerful, why did He not simply forgive Adam and his wife? Was it beyond His scope to do so? Was the sin that bad?

This is not a thread to do any christian bashing, so those of you interested in that need not post. This is a legitimate question for christians, and something I have never understood and which caused me to eventually disbelieve in such a doctrine.

 

[doppelganger]

I have always wondered about the need for Jesus to be crucified. I have always heard that it was because of original sin. My question is if God is indeed God and presumably all powerful, why did He not simply forgive Adam and his wife? Was it beyond His scope to do so? Was the sin that bad?

Symbolically (to me anyway), the nonviolent sacrifice of the self is a precursor to reconciliation with the divine. So the crucifix is necessary to resolve the inherent paradox of the unity of being (the upright of the cross) with the I/other schism (the crosspiece). The self hangs in suffering to death where these two worlds meet. It is not a one time event, but symbolic of an experience in my eternal now.

 

[Quagmire]

the best explanation I've ever heard involves this;

John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

This is in reference to a story in Exodus where the Israelites are forced to walk through a valley infested with poisonous snakes.

In order to pass through unharmed Moses is supposed to have fashioned a snake out of gold and suspended it on a staff which he held aloft in front of the crowd, the idea being; anyone who kept their eyes on the golden snake could pass through the valley without being bitten.

In the same way, the thoery goes, anyone who passes through this life keeping their eyes on Christ and everything he symbolized--God, perfection, self sacrifice--would be immune to all the poisons of this world.

This falls in line nicely with two precepts---faith, disregard of the self---endorsed by most spiritual systems.

 

[doppelganger]

the best explanation I've ever heard involves this;

John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

This is in reference to a story in Exodus where the Israelites are forced to walk through a valley infested with poisonous snakes.

That story continues in the OT with the people coming to worship that very snake on a staff, necessitating its destruction by King Hezekiah, because it had become idolatrous. 2 Kings 18:

In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother's name was Abijah [a] daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called [b] Nehushtan. [c] )

 

[Quagmire]

That story continues in the OT with the people coming to worship that very snake on a staff, necessitating its destruction by King Hezekiah, because it had become idolatrous. 2 Kings 18:

LOL!

Now what does that remind you of?

The more things change...

 

[sojourner]

The interesting thing about this story (as well as the "fall story") is that the serpent is a symbol for wisdom. It was wisdom, not evil, that brought humanity out of innocence, and therefore able to decide whether or not to be in relationship with God. The Exodus story shows us that, as we walk in wisdom, it can "bite us," or lead us into sin (which is death), or heal us, by leading us into relationship with God (which is life). (The serpent is also a symbol for healing).

The cross is necessary as an icon for self-sacrifice -- that is, the sacrifice of self (which is wisdom gone wrong). By Christ embracing death, he destroyed death. Sin now stands as forgiven sin. When we look to the wisdom that is gold wisdom -- wisdom that is lifted high above our baser selves -- we look beyond ourselves toward the Divine. By "dying" to ourselves, we learn to live for God.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I am all for the sacrifice of the self, because Islam also teaches such things. Now I am even more confused. If this sacrifice is symbolic and something all of us must do in order to gain nearness to Allah, then why did Jesus have to physically undergo it, according to christian belief? Was it merely to illustrate that self-sacrifice, or was it to gain forgiveness for mankind? If it was to gain forgiveness, was not God capable of such forgiveness and each person capable of gaining nearness to God through self-sacrifice to begin with?

 

[doppelganger]

I am all for the sacrifice of the self, because Islam also teaches such things. Now I am even more confused. If this sacrifice is symbolic and something all of us must do in order to gain nearness to Allah, then why did Jesus have to physically undergo it, according to christian belief?

Don't confuse my answers with "Christian belief."

I think most self-professed Christians would regard me as a heretic, though I consider myself to be "Christian" as I find deep and profound meaning in the symbols and teachings of Christian mythology. Not exclusively, of course, because I find inspiration elsewhere, too.

 

[Willamena]

If this sacrifice is symbolic and something all of us must do in order to gain nearness to Allah, then why did Jesus have to physically undergo it, according to christian belief? Was it merely to illustrate that self-sacrifice, or was it to gain forgiveness for mankind? If it was to gain forgiveness, was not God capable of such forgiveness and each person capable of gaining nearness to God through self-sacrifice to begin with?

If it is symbolic of that, then it symbolizes the nearness to Allah that we already have. The "illustration" is a means of bring people to awareness of that.

 

[Special Revelation]

I have always wondered about the need for Jesus to be crucified. I have always heard that it was because of original sin. My question is if God is indeed God and presumably all powerful, why did He not simply forgive Adam and his wife? Was it beyond His scope to do so? Was the sin that bad?

This is not a thread to do any christian bashing, so those of you interested in that need not post. This is a legitimate question for christians, and something I have never understood and which caused me to eventually disbelieve in such a doctrine.

1. Romans 5:6 (Whole Chapter)
   You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
2. Romans 5:8 (Whole Chapter)
   But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
3. Romans 5:15 (Whole Chapter)
   But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
4. Romans 6:8 (Whole Chapter)
   Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
5. Romans 7:4 (Whole Chapter)
   So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
6. Romans 8:34 (Whole Chapter)
   Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
7. Romans 14:9 (Whole Chapter)
   For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

I have always wondered about the need for Jesus to be crucified. I have always heard that it was because of original sin. My question is if God is indeed God and presumably all powerful, why did He not simply forgive Adam and his wife? Was it beyond His scope to do so? Was the sin that bad?

Yes, sin really is that bad. God from the beginning set the punishment for sin at death. However, because of His immense love He sent His only Son to die in our place when we deserved His shame and death.

 

[Sonic247]

I am all for the sacrifice of the self, because Islam also teaches such things. Now I am even more confused. If this sacrifice is symbolic and something all of us must do in order to gain nearness to Allah, then why did Jesus have to physically undergo it, according to christian belief? Was it merely to illustrate that self-sacrifice, or was it to gain forgiveness for mankind? If it was to gain forgiveness, was not God capable of such forgiveness and each person capable of gaining nearness to God through self-sacrifice to begin with?

No it wasn't symbolic, what happened there had a very real effect on everyone. The wrath of God for our sins was literally on him. If even in our corrupted minds we realize that sin is wrong, what do you think that it looks like to a God that is infanetly more righteous then we are, everything else is just self righteousness, but what Jesus did is the love of God. People will follow all kinds of rules to think of themselves as righteous, but they strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Yes, sin really is that bad. God from the beginning set the punishment for sin at death. However, because of His immense love He sent His only Son to die in our place when we deserved His shame and death.

Perhaps the punishment for sin was death, but couldn't God by virtue of being who He is simply forgave both Adam and his wife? Why did that sin have to spread? Of course Allah created us imperfect but why is that inherently a bad thing? Had God wanted a perfect servant He would have created them, He obviously did not want that.

 

[neves]

Perhaps the punishment for sin was death, but couldn't God by virtue of being who He is simply forgave both Adam and his wife? Why did that sin have to spread? Of course Allah created us imperfect but why is that inherently a bad thing? Had God wanted a perfect servant He would have created them, He obviously did not want that.

God already has his Angels... If we didn’t have free will… we would be just like the Angels... then our creation would have no purpose...

 

[may]

I have always wondered about the need for Jesus to be crucified. I have always heard that it was because of original sin. My question is if God is indeed God and presumably all powerful, why did He not simply forgive Adam and his wife? Was it beyond His scope to do so? Was the sin that bad?

This is not a thread to do any christian bashing, so those of you interested in that need not post. This is a legitimate question for christians, and something I have never understood and which caused me to eventually disbelieve in such a doctrine.

i think the issue of universal sovereignty comes into it , satan
challenged God’s way of ruling,
This raised the all-important issue of God’s universal sovereignty, that is, his right to rule.
The question was raised: Which is better for humans, Jehovah’s way of ruling or rulership independent of him? Now, Jehovah could have immediately executed Adam and Eve, but that would hardly have settled the issue of sovereignty satisfactorily. By letting human society develop for a considerable time, God could demonstrate just what independence from him and his laws would produce.
Satan’s attack on Jehovah’s right to rule did not stop with what took place in Eden. He called into question loyalty to Jehovah on the part of others. This became a closely related secondary issue. His challenge reached out to include both the offspring of Adam and Eve and all the spirit sons of God, even Jehovah’s dearly loved firstborn Son.(Jesus) In the days of Job, for instance, Satan contended that those who serve Jehovah do so, not out of love for God and his way of ruling, but for selfish reasons. He argued that when subjected to hardship, they would all give in to selfish desires.—Job 2:1-6; Revelation 12:10.
We are all involved in the most important issue ever to face mankind. Where we stand on it will determine our everlasting future. This issue was raised when rebellion broke out in Eden. Back then Satan asked Eve: "Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?" She replied that concerning one tree God had said: "You must not eat from it . . . that you do not die." Then Satan directly charged Jehovah with lying, saying that neither Eve’s life nor Adam’s life was dependent on obedience to God. Satan claimed that God was withholding from his creatures something good—the ability to set their own standards in life. Satan asserted: "God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad."—Genesis 3:1-5.

 

[James the Persian]

I just wrote an answer to The Truth and Danisty on this issue in another thread yesterday, so I'll quote that rather than writing another one. This is how I tried to explain the eastern view. The question as you phrased it, FMV, assumes a peculiarly western and rather more modern theology as its basis, which simply is not applicable. The thing to remember is that the idea that you expressed as the basis for this thread is not the Christian view but a Christian view. Our view is probably best summed up in On the Incarnation by St. Athanasios, but here's what I wrote yesterday:

The central point isn't the Crucifixion as it appears in the west, but the entire Incarnation, from conception to Resurrection and Ascension. Christ didn't have to be sacrificed - he sacrificed Himself. This was not to pay for some inherited sin, but to heal human nature.

Adam turned from God and became mortal as a result by breaking communion with the source of all life. Subsequently all his descendants are mortal. This, though, is more like illness than crime - we are not guilty of Adam's sin and God certainly does not require His Son's blood before He will forgive us. Christ became Incarnate so that He could share our nature, rebuilding the bridge Adam destroyed. He had to die so that He could resurrect defeating death, hence the Crucifixion. This is why it is absolutely vital to our faith that Christ is fully God and fully man, that He died, rose, ascended and remains consubstantial with the Father in His Divinity and with us in His humanity.

Whilst those who hold to the penal substitionary atonement idea also believe these things, they rarely seem to have much of an explanation as to why. Why, is monophysitism or monthelitism wrong? What danger in Nestorianism? The answer is that if Christ wasn't fully man and fully Divine, there is no salvation. This is the normative Christology of the Ecumenical Councils that the vast majority of Christians accept either explicitly or implicitly, even though many westerners don't appear to realise it.

When asked this question, I usually like to quote the Paschal (Easter) Hymn, that we sing each year, because i think it sums up simply Orthodox soteriology:

'Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And on those in the tombs
Bestowing life'.

It's also worth noting that the icon of the Resurrection shows Christ trampling on the wreckage of the gates of Hades and pulling out the dead symbolised by Adam. Salvation is about Christ's self-sacrifice saving us from death, not about satisfying some putative need for vengeance in God the Father.

Hope that helps.

James

 

[Runlikethewind]

I agree with James, one should not focus solely on the crucifixion. Original sin or guilt damaged human nature, humans did not fall in the actions of Adam and Eve, human nature fell . Human nature is a singular nature made up of the dual aspects of spiritual and physical, or natural and supernatural. In order for God to reconcile human nature to Him, He had to reconcile our entire nature. Which means that God had to reconcile us both spiritually and physically, naturally and supernaturally. This was accomplished by the entire Jesus and not just his death on the cross. It was by His becoming man that humanity itself was raised to a divine level, it was through His crucifixion that He paid the price of sin, and it was through the resurrection that sin and death where conquered once and for all. The crucifixion is meaningless apart from the resurrection and none of it could have happened without the incarnation, one misses the picture of salvation if one does not look at the whole life of Jesus and the incarnation of God as man. And I want to thank James for helping me to begin to understand some of this as well when he showed me an article on eastern soteriology a few months ago, thanks James!

 

[sojourner]

I am all for the sacrifice of the self, because Islam also teaches such things. Now I am even more confused. If this sacrifice is symbolic and something all of us must do in order to gain nearness to Allah, then why did Jesus have to physically undergo it, according to christian belief? Was it merely to illustrate that self-sacrifice, or was it to gain forgiveness for mankind? If it was to gain forgiveness, was not God capable of such forgiveness and each person capable of gaining nearness to God through self-sacrifice to begin with?

It is symbolic, but it's also a spiritual reality and a spiritual truth. Christ is the fullness of humanity -- the "complete" human. Because Christ is God-made-flesh, Christ is the reconciler -- the One that has reconciled humanity to God, simply by becoming one of us and living among us. In that reconciliation is found forgiveness of sin, abundance of life, and the raising of humanity to more fully realize its divine nature.

Jesus had to physically undergo death, because Jesus was fully human (and died as all human beings die). The self-sacrifice (IMO) was not to atone for sin. It was not to appease God's wrath. It was to give us an example of what we should do (sacrifice our own little wills in favor of submitting to God's will for us). In this way, human wisdom is brought to its fullness.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

What does the expression 'defeated death' mean?

Secondly, I am asking these questions in an effort to understand why chrsitians believe as they do. I am of the belief that human nature is constant, and that Adam and Eve had the same nature they had before Adam ate of the tree. It was because of his nature that he even did it in the first place. They had both been warned that to eat of the tree meant they would have to dwell elsewhere. Eve did not want to dwell in this 'elsewhere' because she knew of no other place besides paradise. Due to the nature inherent in many women, she wished to have security of future. This ultimately caused her to eat the fruit of which she was forbidden. Adam had no intention of eating the fruit at all. According to my beliefs it was Allah who caused Adam to forget the command, thereby eating the fruit. Adam did not have a moment of weakness at all, and would never in a million years have eaten it had it not been for the direct intervention of Allah to make him forget about it. The whole purpose for this was to place Adam on earth as was explained to him later on. It wasn't a punishment so much as a lesson to humanity about just how much of an enemy shaitan is to us. It proved to us to what lengths shaytan will go through simply to cause us trouble. Allah warns mankind after relating the story of Adam and his wife. The entire story is borne out in Quran in about 20 short verses:

11. And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblîs (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate.
12. (Allâh) said: "What prevented you (O Iblîs) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblîs said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay."

13. (Allâh) said: "(O Iblîs) get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here. Get out, for you are of those humiliated and disgraced."

14. (Iblîs) said: "Allow me respite till the Day they are raised up (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)."

15. (Allâh) said: "You are of those allowed respite."

16. (Iblîs) said: "Because You have sent me astray, surely I will sit in wait against them (human beings) on Your Straight Path.

17. Then I will come to them from before them and behind them, from their right and from their left, and You will not find most of them as thankful ones (i.e. they will not be dutiful to You)."

18. (Allâh) said (to Iblîs) "Get out from this (Paradise) disgraced and expelled. Whoever of them (mankind) will follow you, then surely I will fill Hell with you all."

19. "And O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in Paradise, and eat thereof as you both wish, but approach not this tree otherwise you both will be of the Zâlimûn (unjust and wrong­doers)."

20. Then Shaitân (Satan) whispered suggestions to them both in order to uncover that which was hidden from them of their private parts (before); he said: "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save you should become angels or become of the immortals."

21. And he [Shaitân (Satan)] swore by Allâh to them both (saying): "Verily, I am one of the sincere well-wishers for you both."

22. So he misled them with deception. Then when they tasted of the tree, that which was hidden from them of their shame (private parts) became manifest to them and they began to stick together the leaves of Paradise over themselves (in order to cover their shame). And their Lord called out to them (saying): "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you: Verily, Shaitân (Satan) is an open enemy unto you?"

23. They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers."

24. (Allâh) said: "Get down, one of you an enemy to the other [i.e. Adam, Hawwa (Eve), and Shaitân (Satan), etc.]. On earth will be a dwelling­place for you and an enjoyment, - for a time."

25. He said: "Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out (i.e.resurrected)."

26. O Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover yourselves (screen your private parts, etc.) and as an adornment, and the raiment of righteousness, that is better. Such are among the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, that they may remember (i.e. leave falsehood and follow truth).

27. O Children of Adam! Let not Shaitân (Satan) deceive you, as he got your parents [Adam and Hawwa (Eve)] out of Paradise, stripping them of their raiments, to show them their private parts. Verily, he and Qabîluhu (his soldiers from the jinns or his tribe) see you from where you cannot see them. Verily, We made the Shayâtin (devils) Auliyâ' (protectors and helpers) for those who believe not.



I quoted the entire story from one part of Quran, in surah Anfal. I did so to give an entire synopsis of why I do not believe the crucifixion to have been necessary at all. The incarnation of God to human form, and thusly his death, was a completely unnecessary series of events. All of this presupposes that Adam had something inherently wrong with him, or that he acquired it through an act of apparent disobedience. In response Allah punished both with death, and having to dwell on earth for a time.

I say it was not a punishment. It was simply fate written by Allah. Adam was fated to have eaten of that fruit. I am sure he felt punished, I mean he was removed from paradise so that's gotta be a sore spot for him. Overall though, it was Allah's design for the human being. Had Adam not eaten that fruit, he would never have come to earth, he would never have to improve upon himself, but it would have been contrary to his nature.

I believe this whole thing with Adam was simply a lesson for us all not to follow shaytan as Allah warns in the last verse I quoted above. We do not have a collective fallen nature, but rather individually we can decide whether or not we will be noble (follow Allah's commands), or we will be inferior to our own selves (follow the footsteps of shaytan). Man is born with his nature or fitrah intact. We are born on good terms with Allah. We can associate ourselves with our higher nature (which the commandments of Allah are designed to bring this about) and thus fully realize the potential of mankind, or we can associate ourselves with our lower nature, and give in to all manner of spiritual illness. Allah through His various prophets, books and overall guidance has made the human abundantly aware of how we can achieve both lower and higher nature. I like the following three verses of Quran because it explains so much in a few words, what shaytan is really all about and how it affects us:

118. Allâh cursed him. And he [Shaitân (Satan)] said: "I will take an appointed portion of your slaves;

119. Verily, I will mislead them, and surely, I will arouse in them false desires; and certainly, I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allâh." And whoever takes Shaitân (Satan) as a Walî (protector or helper) instead of Allâh, has surely suffered a manifest loss.

120. He [Shaitan (Satan)] makes promises to them, and arouses in them false desires; and Shaitan's (Satan) promises are nothing but deceptions.

 

[Special Revelation]

I have always wondered about the need for Jesus to be crucified. I have always heard that it was because of original sin. My question is if God is indeed God and presumably all powerful, why did He not simply forgive Adam and his wife? Was it beyond His scope to do so? Was the sin that bad?

This is not a thread to do any christian bashing, so those of you interested in that need not post. This is a legitimate question for christians, and something I have never understood and which caused me to eventually disbelieve in such a doctrine.

Here is your answer according to the Bible.

1. Deuteronomy 21:23 (Whole Chapter)
   you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.
2. Galatians 3:13 (Whole Chapter)
   Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." [ Deut. 21:23]