The morality of salvation by faith

[Yosef-Firstborn]

I have pondered this and tried to grapple with it several times, and I can't seem to understand:

How does the (admittedly not universal-) Christian concept of salvation by faith (i.e., faith in Jesus' sacrifice and its atoning ability?) create the foundation of a moral society? If faith is rewarded by salvation, and deeds/works do not affect that, then systematically there is nothing defining works as good or evil, since good works and evil works of a Saved person inevitably will lead to Heaven, and good works and evil works of a not-Saved person inevitably lead to Hell. In such a society, with nothing defining works as good or evil, how can morality prevail or even make sense?

Of course, I don't claim that adherents to this belief are immoral. The world around us is evidence that that is not the case. However, the theology itself doesn't seem to support it.

I'm also aware that your faith theoretically inspires you not to do evil works, and rather to do good works--that it is a natural consequence of true faith. I think that is mainly and principally true, but cannot be said to be 100% true. Sometimes people who believe in good things still commit wicked actions.

I don't know, some of this probably sounds muddled. What are more clarifications and explanations on this concept? Thanks for your replies.

 

[moorea944]

Great post, thanks. Wonderful topic too.

I look at salvation as this..... And this is what I read...

Salvation is a process. Faith comes first, of course. But it is more that just believing. Christ commands us to be baptised and to live a life "in Christ". We look at the book of James where he talks about if you have faith, you WILL do works. Your works is based on your faith. Then he adds, without works, your faith is dead. Wow!! Hardcore words. But.... we are saved by God's Grace and His Mercy! And we will be judged when His Son comes back.

I love the words of Christ in Revelation.... "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be".

Most religions out there base their salvation on just belief. If so, then we throw away all of the "other words" Christ and the Apostles tell us and teach us.

Wonderful subject though, thanks!!

 

[Robert.Evans]

I have pondered this and tried to grapple with it several times, and I can't seem to understand:

How does the (admittedly not universal-) Christian concept of salvation by faith (i.e., faith in Jesus' sacrifice and its atoning ability?) create the foundation of a moral society? If faith is rewarded by salvation, and deeds/works do not affect that, then systematically there is nothing defining works as good or evil, since good works and evil works of a Saved person inevitably will lead to Heaven, and good works and evil works of a not-Saved person inevitably lead to Hell. In such a society, with nothing defining works as good or evil, how can morality prevail or even make sense?

Of course, I don't claim that adherents to this belief are immoral. The world around us is evidence that that is not the case. However, the theology itself doesn't seem to support it.

I'm also aware that your faith theoretically inspires you not to do evil works, and rather to do good works--that it is a natural consequence of true faith. I think that is mainly and principally true, but cannot be said to be 100% true. Sometimes people who believe in good things still commit wicked actions.

I don't know, some of this probably sounds muddled. What are more clarifications and explanations on this concept? Thanks for your replies.

Hello, and welcome.

Becoming enlightened by God, and therefore saved, does lead to good works. (I can find teh text if you wish). James I think mentions it, and also the lord speaks of good fruit from a good tree. One does not get evil fruit from a good tree. So if you are doing something bad, you should think again about your salvation.
If you do something really bad (1John) then you will not be saved. So in short, there are different levels of salvation.... that is why it says in Acts that some were sawn in two (not literally) in order to receive a BETTER salvation. If it is a 'better' one then is means there must be a worst one and thus salvation is not just a done deal... unless of course you are one of the elect. But how would you know. No one will enter the kingdom of God if they are doing wrong knowingly. Any serious crime will also bar one from the Kingdom.
Salvation is something to be taken seriously.
I am sure others will make this clearer than me and with citations. If not, I will look for you. But it is there in the NT.

 

[jeager106]

What are the "works" that need to be done to show our faith?
I've talked to church going Christians who believe that once saved by baptisim it's done. Nothing else is required. That seems wrong to me but what are the works?

 

[Kolibri]

Paul talked about working as it pertains to the Christian Faith at 2 Corinthians 6.

"Working together with him, we also urge you not to accept the undeserved kindness of God and miss it's purpose. For he says: 'In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you.' Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation. In no way are we giving any cause for stumbling, so that no fault may be found with our ministry; but in every way we recommend ourselves as God's ministers, by endurance of much,...[things endured]...by purity, by knowledge, by patience, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy, by truthful speech, by God's power; through the weapons of righteousness in the right hand (perhaps for offense.) and in the left, (perhaps for defense.)...[paired things: one enjoyed, one endured]." - 2 Co 6:1-10

The first clause, "working together with him" reminds us of what he said in the 2 prior verses:

"Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as through God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: 'Become reconciled to God.' The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin (or "a sin offering.") for us, so that by means of him we might become God's righteousness." - 2 Co 5:20,21

One of these works then would be the act of begging others to become reconciled to God. Paul goes on to show how we "beg." One important aspect was making sure we 'in no way [become] a cause for stumbling.' At 1 Co 9:22 he elaborated by saying to adapt to people's consciences where we are permitted so that ones we beg might not be offended out of prejudice. At 2 Co 4:1,2 Paul urges us to 'recommend ourselves as God's ministers as ones that "do not give up," renouncing "the shameful, underhanded things, not walking with the cunning or adulterating the word of God; but by making the truth manifest."

"By patience" we "continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same." - Col 3:13

"By kindness" we also show ourselves to be "tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave you." - Eph 4:32

"Weapons of righteousness" reminds us of the "complete suit of armor" that we are instructed to "put on" that included shodding our feet "in readiness to declare the good news of peace." among other activities that protect ourselves and our brothers from "the wicked one's burning arrows." - Eph 6:11-18.

Certainly being a Christian according to Paul is not a passive acceptance, but a life lived with "plenty to do in the work of the Lord." - 1 Cor 15:58

And yet salvation is not by the works themselves, but by God's "undeserved kindness."

 

[George-ananda]

I think the atoning death dogma if taken literally creates logical problems. Fortunately, I think that dogma is on the healthy decline. Heck, even the new Pope believes atheists can get to heaven.

 

[joshua3886]

I have pondered this and tried to grapple with it several times, and I can't seem to understand:

How does the (admittedly not universal-) Christian concept of salvation by faith (i.e., faith in Jesus' sacrifice and its atoning ability?) create the foundation of a moral society? If faith is rewarded by salvation, and deeds/works do not affect that, then systematically there is nothing defining works as good or evil, since good works and evil works of a Saved person inevitably will lead to Heaven, and good works and evil works of a not-Saved person inevitably lead to Hell. In such a society, with nothing defining works as good or evil, how can morality prevail or even make sense?

Of course, I don't claim that adherents to this belief are immoral. The world around us is evidence that that is not the case. However, the theology itself doesn't seem to support it.

I'm also aware that your faith theoretically inspires you not to do evil works, and rather to do good works--that it is a natural consequence of true faith. I think that is mainly and principally true, but cannot be said to be 100% true. Sometimes people who believe in good things still commit wicked actions.

I don't know, some of this probably sounds muddled. What are more clarifications and explanations on this concept? Thanks for your replies.

This is the main problem I have with organized religion. They believe people like Ghandi can be sent to hell for not believing in the right religion, but a person like HItler can be saved because he asked for forgiveness right before he died. People shouldn't be allowed to just instantly atone for what they've done, as if all evil deeds are equal.
And as you said about not being able to define good/evil work, I have heard many Christians and other religious people claim that nobody can be a good person unless they accept the correct God. "A person must be evil if they are a non-believer" or "It is impossible to be good and love others if you're a non-believer"; these are common sayings among many fundamentalists believers.
Also, people who have the most faith tend to be the ones who commit the most wicked things imaginable. The people who committed the 9/11 terrorist attacks were very religious and the people who were apart of Hitler's holocaust did so because of their religious faith.

 

[LuisDantas]

I have pondered this and tried to grapple with it several times, and I can't seem to understand:

How does the (admittedly not universal-) Christian concept of salvation by faith (i.e., faith in Jesus' sacrifice and its atoning ability?) create the foundation of a moral society?

For the most part is simply doesn't. Quite often it stymies it, actually.

It often does however promote a sense of unity that seems to be good enough for many people.

If faith is rewarded by salvation, and deeds/works do not affect that, then systematically there is nothing defining works as good or evil, since good works and evil works of a Saved person inevitably will lead to Heaven, and good works and evil works of a not-Saved person inevitably lead to Hell. In such a society, with nothing defining works as good or evil, how can morality prevail or even make sense?

The way I see it, it ends up creating a need for responsible priests and other religious teachers to remind Christians that God should not be treated as service supplier who can be bought for a fee.

Which is a nice way of saying that the idea is inherently flawed and dangerous.

Of course, I don't claim that adherents to this belief are immoral. The world around us is evidence that that is not the case. However, the theology itself doesn't seem to support it.

The world around us also offers consistent, plentiful evidence that such a belief is just not healthy.

I'm also aware that your faith theoretically inspires you not to do evil works, and rather to do good works--that it is a natural consequence of true faith. I think that is mainly and principally true, but cannot be said to be 100% true. Sometimes people who believe in good things still commit wicked actions.

Indeed, and sometimes the more grievously so for that faith. It will all depend on how much wisdom and good counsel there are at hand to direct that faith.

I don't know, some of this probably sounds muddled. What are more clarifications and explanations on this concept? Thanks for your replies.

Faith is, quite simply, very different from either religious wisdom or religious compassion. It is that simple, IMO.

 

[AllanV]

The idea of faith has different meanings. The scripture says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Faith must have evidence. Most Christians would say the word of God is the written word the Bible. But I know in reality God will indwell entirely when the Holy Spirit is allowed to purify the self and mind of all human traits, hidden or otherwise.

This is powerful and active and it is not just merely reading words and using the intellect to absorb the meaning. The nature of Jesus must be found. Every one must learn to talk from a pure heart and mind. From a rebellious nature that is denied eternal life, which is immortality at the tree of life, to one where the individuals will and God's will are one.
God's will indwell in the nature of Jesus in reality and God's request is to Know Him.