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Featured The mistake of interpreting holy books literally.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Subduction Zone, Jan 28, 2021.

  1. Messianic Israelite

    Messianic Israelite Active Member

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    Hi Subduction Zone. I don't know what the world looked like in Noahic age. I do say we have our dating methods wrong when it comes to ice caps. A global flood may have skewed the results we get from our dating methods, whether that's Cosmogenic nuclide dating, Radiocarbon dating, Amino Acid Racemisation etc. We do know that Antartica was once covered with forests, suggesting it wasn't the frozen wasteland of Antarctica today. It rather suggests that temperatures were ideal all over the world.
     
  2. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Good advice. We should all definitely practice what we preach, eh.

    Now, any one thing I said above can actually be discussed, instead of dismissed with a blanket characterization.

    :)....
     
  3. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    This original post was confusing since I addressed 2 entirely unrelated angles of thinking, so that one angle had the effect of canceling out the other. The only truly relevant issue is whether God exists and then what are the logical implications of Him existing.
     
    #263 halbhh, Feb 2, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Sorry, but the "rates may have changed" argument" simply does not fly. There are far too many consequences to change rates and worse yet you would have to change rates for almost every sample on the Earth for your claim to work. And that is only one method of dating. If you want to learn the science I do not mind helping you to learn but if you are only looking for an excuse to believe that is not a valid debating technique and you are still left with the fact that when people claim that Genesis is factual they are also claiming that God is a liar, even if you do not realize that is what you are doing.
     
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Projection again. Tsk tsk. I have not made any such claims, you on the other hand, not so much.
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    And once more with the attempt at a strawman argument. I would suggest that you study the Ninth Commandment a bit.

    By the way, that is only one small piece of evidence, even though you appear to be refusing to understand it. I have also heard the excuse that God magicked the problems his immoral genocide created. Which is why I ask when the God magic stopped. A question that you have ignored several times. Since you have been rather rude, using strawman arguments is always extremely rude, I was rude in return. But let me ask politely this time:

    In the Noah story when did God end his miracles?
     
  7. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Miracles are always continuing so far as I know, but not on some wide visible scale since Christ, because of the goal that at least some people should come to "faith."

    Any widely visible miracle would destroy the opportunity to have faith. (since faith is to believe without seeing)

    Consider if you will some of your assumptions I don't use:

    I don't assume the Flood was literally global -- instead as the wording suggests it appears if you read it literally that the Flood covered all the world the narrator knew about, including local hills, as visible, all the world to the far horizon of visibility at least. (while I don't rule out a global flood, I also do not assume it either; that detail I consider an interesting side topic, but of no serious significance)

    I don't even assume in a literal flood on top of Antarctica also (global) that the ice would necessarily break loose of the terrain (though it might, that's a fun unrelated question for me, but I what I'm saying here is I don't even assume "naturalism" -- I accept that God can exist (and found out He does), so therefore I'm aware He can cancel the laws of nature at will....

    When God exists, the unnatural can happen.

    Nor could I reasonably assume that God would be incompetent and leave clear and convincing evidence that any skeptic could be convinced by and thereby contradict the common bible extensively.

    Ergo, He would be able in a literal global flood to either secure or recreate an ice sheet as needed (or just keep it locked down to begin with and insulated if needed, whatever...because of the nature of the text (the bible is based on God existing to begin with).

    I don't have so many assumptions about God being limited by nature....that kind of "naturalism" to put on top of the text as you are trying to get us to read onto it.

    Imagine a wild scenario: what if scientist drilled a lot in the antarctic ice sheet and did find evidence a section floated and then re atttached, and had a clear melt/refreeze layer with seawater effects.... Ok, then I would have a problem in my understanding. That evidence would be a problem for me.
     
    #267 halbhh, Feb 2, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
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  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    So perhaps that problem is that you have a unique interpretation of the Flood myth. If you can give me details on your version of the flood I can tell you how it would be refuted. Of course there is a problem with continually shrinking the flood. It eventually becomes pointless. The question if it was just a local one becomes "Why didn't Noah and family simply walk away?"

    As to the ice caps in the traditional biblical version of the flood, even if they did not all float to the equator the ice would still float and break up. There would be massive evidence of such an event. Massive physical events leave massive physical evidence and there is no such evidence for the flood.
     
  9. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    I think your question about Noah just walking away didn't have time to be thought out, and I'll forego answering it unless you really want me to, ok? (but if you really want me to then I will, ok?)

    About "naturalism" -- the idea that the laws of nature can never be suspended or overruled, and that all events are always natural -- that's a form of assuming God does not exist.

    In order to discuss something God putatively did, we should not attempt to incorporate or use a premise He doesn't exist as a part of the analysis, because if you do, then you get an illogical process.

    About the Flood: I think that when people get caught up (however fun) in arguing details we are not told precisely in the text, then often someone might not get around to reading the story in a listening way and getting the actual, interesting messages in it.
     
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  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    No, there was plenty of time thought out in that question. You really need to quit making false assumptions.

    And no, naturalism does not assume that God does not exist. It appears that you have been listening to defenders of the indefensible. Naturalism is not such an assumption. It is merely an observation of reality. Meanwhile you keep ignoring the fact that massive events would leave behind massive evidence and you appear to be afraid to answer questions yourself even when they are asked politely meanwhile you rudely make false assumptions about others.
     
  11. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Truth states humans.
    T and Ruth a biblical inference.

    Females he said by cross learnt truth about science life sacrificed meaning.

    + The cross T upon T. Symbolic. Head to head. Sacrifice of life.

    Science loves symbolism. To learn symbolism is intelligence they quote. Difficult to speak a secret symbolic language. Why only special minds were successful by their say so.

    Yet O pi and Phi was thought owning one intention. To destroy what God has formed.

    O mass energy in stone. What science changes to practice science. Why science is satanism.

    Gases spirit from O God stone mass which they burnt in heart core UFO radiation effect.

    Active with planet gods releasing core radiation due to an earth historic vacuum activated attack.

    Planets in UFO vacuum union send back to earth sun mass amount of radiation. The Sun's way to copy natural sun big bang blast of earth.

    Reason reaction was recorded why man knew.

    First image recording owned by act of evil not man. Was not even there.

    So the womb vacuum because of earth science attacked the universe.

    Males knew as the UFO war of gods was activated by human science and man told the stories ever since

    Science. False prophet as God was not self destructive.

    Science a liar and self deceiver.

    Origin human group intent to remove presence. Why pi and Phi was pondered.

    O pi and Phi is not any creator theme.

    The actual human lie and self deceit. And surely by now you must realise?
     
  12. alypius

    alypius Member

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    If literal interpretation means believing a myth actually happened, then what interpretative method does one use to determine whether a text is myth or some other form of writing?
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    It is always a good idea to check reality. When there is endless evidence against a story one can be very sure that it is myth. Especially if to believe the myth one must have contradictory beliefs. For example if one believes the myths of Genesis then one also believes that God lies. Those that believe that try to claim "I don't believe that God lies" but that does not mean that though they do not believe that God lies consciously the facts still remains that for the Genesis myths to be true God would have to be a liar. The Ostrich Defense does not really work.
     
  14. Meerkat

    Meerkat Well-Known Member

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    I think that's often what gets lost in these discussions - what the authors were really trying to convey.
     
  15. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    The goal post shifting is, at this point from you, way too much.

    I wrote:

    I wasn't making a literal case with a metaphorical expression, I was explaining the meaning of a word to you from the source language. The devil can inspire people to say foolish things, you can feel inspired to express yourself through art or vocal song, but when God inspires, it is filled with His Spirit, perfect.

    Jesus is God. He breathed God's air while on Earth and is today still in His resurrection body, if you want to be excessively literal in your understanding.

    --therefore providing you BOTH a literalistic AND a metaphorical answer to your "question".
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    There is no shifting of the goalposts. You were simply making a poor argument. And you still are. Nothing new there. Of course the "God Breathed" verse is just a defensive verse that really has no validity. It is from a book that is a pseudograph that was most likely written between 90 and 140 CE:

    Second Epistle to Timothy - Wikipedia.

    Besides a verse that was written very late in the Bible's development not by the person that it claims wrote it is there any other reason to think that the Bible is the "word of God"?
     
  17. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    I've probably confused the central issue by discussing 2 unrelated issue that can confuse when together:
    a) how the flood might happen obeying laws of nature
    b) the effect of God existing: that laws of nature can be overridden

    Of the 2, only b) is truly important in this discussion in this thread, really.

    If God exists, then the naturally impossible can happen.

    Therefore, logically, discussing something in the bible as being naturally impossible isn't rational, as it contradicts the fundamental postulate of the text, on which the text exists to begin with.

    It'd be like discussing arithmetic while denying addition can happen, or denying that number exists.
     
  18. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Helpful definition:
    Every time I've used the term "naturalism" I used it in the particular meaning that all things and events are and only can ever be natural -- obeying the laws of nature, physics (including as yet undiscovered physics) -- so that nothing ever happens outside of the fixed laws of nature, and nothing supernatural (outside of nature) exists:

    As in the common definition:

    "Naturalism is the belief that nothing exists beyond the natural world. Instead of using supernatural or spiritual explanations, naturalism focuses on explanations that come from the laws of nature."
    naturalism - Dictionary Definition


    Naturalism does explain all that happens around us typically, most of us would recognize, that have experience in the hard sciences: we know that when we find a new phenomena, eventually we can be expected to figure out how it works, discover the physics behind it.

    But the belief in naturalism goes further: to think that nothing exists outside of nature/physics, ever. And that belief of course isn't compatible with the text of the bible, where God actually creates nature itself, and thus is independent of nature.

    As I see it God set up nature, and nature works -- as we see all around us in myriad ways -- but....occasionally He intervenes and does things that are not like the natural outcome that would have happened without His supernatural action.




    --
     
    #278 halbhh, Feb 3, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
  19. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    And you missed the fact that your definition supports my claim. But you won't let yourself see that. You accused others of making an assumption. It is never wise to accuse others of making an assumption since that puts a burden of proof upon the person making that claim. That is not the case even with the definition that you chose. For example a deist would still believe in a god, but that god does not interfere in the world. Naturalism still works with deism, a theistic belief.
     
  20. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    ah, who won't let themselves see?....

    If possible, please try to see what I wrote in the last few posts to you (last 3 for instance) without thinking you already know what they say.

    I've said God as in versions of the text of the "common bible" -- "predicated" on the "bible".

    Basically you can't analyze arithmetic with the assumption that number doesn't exist. You can't analyze something in the bible using an premise that God as in the bible doesn't exist, such as the premise that nothing unnatural can happen, etc.

    It's not a logical process of analysis with a premise that denies the very subject being discussed.

    I cannot analyze architecture with the premise that buildings do not exist. (with that premise, I'd merely get an illogical process, such as arriving at the conclusion there is no such thing as architecture, etc.)
     
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