The Maya: They Destroyed Themselves

[Sunstone]

"No single factor brings a civilization to its knees, but the deforestation that helped bring on drought could easily have exacerbated other problems such as civil unrest, war, starvation and disease."

Do you think the Maya reasonably could have changed their culture -- that is, their ways -- enough to prevent their own demise?

 

[Valjean]

The collapse of the Maya follows the pattern of many other cultures. When your population exceeds the carrying capacity of your region, at your particular level of technology, increasing poverty, strife, war and eventual disaster is inevitable -- Anthropology 101.

The Maya were as intelligent as anyone else. They had the intellectual capacity to grasp the socio-ecological ramifications of their cultural practices, but they were doomed by a brain hard-wired for a simpler level of technology.

Hominid psychology is a relic of our evolution. Until yesterday, in our biological history, we lived in small, mobile bands or tribes. We didn't have the technology to devastate our own life-support system, so ecological parsimony and the concept of sustainability were never wired into our brains.
Today we can understand this intellectully, but we supress the implications and continue to live beyond the sustainable carrying capacity of our regions.

 

[Ozzie]

The collapse of the Maya follows the pattern of many other cultures. When your population exceeds the carrying capacity of your region, at your particular level of technology, increasing poverty, strife, war and eventual disaster is inevitable -- Anthropology 101.

The habitants of Easter Island stripped their land of trees and perished. Their example should be instructive.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

The habitants of Easter Island stripped their land of trees and perished. Their example should be instructive.

It should be but it wasn't. I very much doubt even the knowledge of the collapse of our global civilisation would prove instructive enough for the lessons to be retained by any human stragglers in the future. Even from its birth in Mesopotamia, civilisation has operated in an unsustainable way unless naturally constrained by severe conditions.

[edit]I think our fate is sealed in our biology. No matter how sophisticated our culture could potentially be in theory in practice we are very irrational & compulsive creatures who are gifted in ways that are unfortunately no use for long term survival.

 

[Valjean]

That's why we institute restrictive laws and create agencies like the Environmental Protection Agency. Individuals are rapacious. Given unrestricted power -- in banks, corporations, governments, anything -- you get voracious, rabid abuse.

 

[DadBurnett]

"No single factor brings a civilization to its knees, but the deforestation that helped bring on drought could easily have exacerbated other problems such as civil unrest, war, starvation and disease."

Do you think the Maya reasonably could have changed their culture -- that is, their ways -- enough to prevent their own demise?

Interesting question ... but it seems to me that you might be overlooking the contribution of Cortez and others to the downfall of the Mayans ,,,

 

[Sunstone]

Interesting question ... but it seems to me that you might be overlooking the contribution of Cortez and others to the downfall of the Mayans ,,,

The Mayan fall occured hundreds of years before Cortez. You might be thinking of the Aztecs.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Today we can understand this intellectully, but we supress the implications and continue to live beyond the sustainable carrying capacity of our regions.

Going back to this suggestion of yours Seyorni, I don't think we supress the implications of our unsustainable lifestyles so much as act out our immediate instinctual drives with far greater compulsiveness than our ability to reason can regulate. Reason is the servant of the passions rather than the other way around - although we can get fairly creative in finding ways to convince ourselves it is otherwise or will be tomorrow if we just try hard enough.

 

[kai]

"No single factor brings a civilization to its knees, but the deforestation that helped bring on drought could easily have exacerbated other problems such as civil unrest, war, starvation and disease."

Do you think the Maya reasonably could have changed their culture -- that is, their ways -- enough to prevent their own demise?

it seems to be a lot more complicated than it first seems. I think your describing the classic period, there is a post classic period that lasted for centuries longer until the Spanish came.



The Maya cities of the northern lowlands in Yucatán continued to flourish for centuries more; some of the important sites in this era were Chichen Itza, Uxmal, Edzná, and Coba. After the decline of the ruling dynasties of Chichen and Uxmal, Mayapan ruled all of Yucatán until a revolt in 1450. (This city's name may be the source of the word "Maya", which had a more geographically restricted meaning in Yucatec and colonial Spanish and only grew to its current meaning in the 19th and 20th centuries). The area then degenerated into competing city-states until the Yucatán was conquered by the Spanish.


Maya civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



fascinating

 

[kai]

from great city to cattle ranch!


In 1526 Spanish Conquistador Francisco de Montejo (a veteran of the Grijalva and Cortés expeditions) successfully petitioned the King of Spain for a charter to conquer Yucatán. His first campaign in 1527, which covered much of the Yucatán peninsula, decimated his forces but ended with the establishment of a small fort at Xaman Ha', south of what is today Cancún. Montejo returned to Yucatán in 1531 with reinforcements and took Campeche on the west coast. He sent his son, Francisco Montejo The Younger, in late 1532 to conquer the interior of the Yucatán Peninsula from the north. The objective from the beginning was to go to Chichén Itzá and establish a capital.
Montejo the Younger eventually arrived at Chichen Itza, which he renamed Ciudad Real. At first he encountered no resistance, and set about dividing the lands around the city and awarding them to his soldiers. The Maya became more hostile over time, and eventually they laid siege to the Spanish, cutting off their supply line to the coast, and forcing them to barricade themselves among the ruins of ancient city. Months passed, but no reinforcements arrived. Montejo the Younger attempted an all out assault against the Maya and lost 150 of his remaining forces. He was forced to abandon Chichén Itzá in 1534 under cover of darkness. By 1535, all Spanish had been driven from the Yucatán Peninsula.
Montejo eventually returned to Yucatán and conquered the peninsula. The Spanish crown later issued a land grant that included Chichen Itza and by 1588 it was a working cattle ranch



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichen_Itza





how sad is that?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Ss,

The Maya: They Destroyed Themselves

The same would be discussed few thousand years hence.
Could not the 21th century habitants safeguard themselves against *global warming*?

Love & rgds

 

[kai]

more:

After Spanish dominion over the region was finally established, the Maya peoples themselves remained restive against Spanish rule, both under the colonial phase of New Spain and then under the newly-independent Mexican state. Maya discontent in Yucatán would later erupt into open revolt during the latter half of the 19th century, in the Caste War of Yucatán. The major portion of this conflict lasted over fifty years, during which much of the southeastern portion of the Peninsula was an effectively independent Maya state, Chan Santa Cruz. Complete suppression of the revolt was difficult to obtain, and skirmishes continued up into the 1930s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_conquest_of_Yucatán

 

[Nothing]

Sunstone,the Mayan culture at its peak was not unlike, say, the Egyptians or the Romans. The most advanced in their region. Like the Egypians and Romans the Mayans conquered other cultures and spread out. My fellow posters above me have given reasons for the demise of the Mayans and I do not dispute them for at the very least, what they say no doubt has truth in it.
My part of what may be true is that the dominant culture (Mayans) became complacent. Technological advances and conquered lands to draw resourses from would make life quite comfortable. Survival no longer being an issue of great importance, matters that are trivial would become more important (entertainment, self indulgence, personal wealth, individual rights, ect). Quite simply, complacency breeds contempt and contempt breeds the demise of unity.

To answer your question, yes they could have prevented their demise. Once a comfortable living was established, they could have turned their attention more towards Self-developement (seeking inner peace, lovingkindness, forgiveness, Oneness, ect) Many did of course, and anyone who has studied the Mayans must me in awe of their astrological knowledge. It still rivals what we know with todays technology. Unfortunately, too many chose the path of self, rather then Self. I'm guessing what you really want to know Sunstone, is if it is to late for us. No, I don't believe so, but it is hard to deny that we may be very close to that edge. Let's do what we can to change things before it's too late.

 

[Sunstone]

it seems to be a lot more complicated than it first seems. I think your describing the classic period, there is a post classic period that lasted for centuries longer until the Spanish came.

Do you see any relevance in introducing the post-classical period into a discussion of the fall of classical Mayan civilization?

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Nothing, the idea that the Mayans became too decadent to maintain social unity is interesting. I like to believe that we are capable of far greater social coherence. The trouble is human nature, i.e. our biology, is not something we can change at will. What I believe follows is that culture is ultimately determined much more by our nature than we realise. In theory the Mayans could've changed their culture to become truly sustainable. They would be an exceptional case however. There has been a repeating pattern of rapid expansion, depletion and subsequent catastrophe that can be seen right from the start of recorded human history to the present day.

I've read several books around this subject but the most recent that I've finished, A Short History of Progress by Ronald Wright, is lucid & well written albeit short. I think almost everyone would find it really interesting.

 

[Nothing]

Thank you for responding Scarlet Wampus. Yes this pattern has been repeated throughout human history and continues today. I would love more then anything to believe that this is not human nature, but this is to naive even for me. However I do believe human nature does change, though very subtley as to be almost inperceptable. And that change can be triggered by the actions of one.
There are many in the here and now who are acting to bring about this change and the more unified their action the greater the change.
I may not be so naive as to believe this horrendous pattern is not human nature, but I am absolutely naive enough to believe it can be changed. And besides, if there is one thing I know for sure, there is nothing better I can possibly do in this life or others, then be a part of this change.

 

[kai]

"No single factor brings a civilization to its knees, but the deforestation that helped bring on drought could easily have exacerbated other problems such as civil unrest, war, starvation and disease."

Do you think the Maya reasonably could have changed their culture -- that is, their ways -- enough to prevent their own demise?

Do you see any relevance in introducing the post-classical period into a discussion of the fall of classical Mayan civilization?

sorry Sunstone where did you say it was about Classical Maya? and even then all classical maya did not dissapear.

Archeological records reveal that while some Maya city-states did fall during drought periods, some survived and even thrived.

from your link:

"We believe that drought was realized differently in different areas," explains Griffin. "We propose that increases in temperature and decreases in rainfall brought on by localized deforestation caused serious enough problems to push some but not all city-states over the edge."



Do you think the Maya reasonably could have changed their culture -- that is, their ways -- enough to prevent their own demise?

all i am saying is theres a lot of Mayan history to look at including the Spanish who contibuted to their downfall but not demise. the classical Maya collapse was not the "demise" of the Maya and certainly not all Maya only the southern lowlands, and the ruins of Chichen Itza , Uxmal ,and Mayanspán are all Post Classic period.

 

[Sunstone]

sorry Sunstone where did you say it was about Classical Maya? and even then all classical maya did not dissapear.

Archeological records reveal that while some Maya city-states did fall during drought periods, some survived and even thrived.

from your link:

"We believe that drought was realized differently in different areas," explains Griffin. "We propose that increases in temperature and decreases in rainfall brought on by localized deforestation caused serious enough problems to push some but not all city-states over the edge."



Do you think the Maya reasonably could have changed their culture -- that is, their ways -- enough to prevent their own demise?

all i am saying is theres a lot of Mayan history to look at including the Spanish who contibuted to their downfall but not demise. the classical Maya collapse was not the "demise" of the Maya and certainly not all Maya only the southern lowlands, and the ruins of Chichen Itza , Uxmal ,and Mayanspán are all Post Classic period.

You're right, Kai. I stand corrected -- because my question, "Do you think the Maya reasonably could have changed their culture -- that is, their ways -- enough to prevent their own demise?", might be answered in terms of post-classical Mayan civilization.

 

[kai]

You're right, Kai. I stand corrected -- because my question, "Do you think the Maya reasonably could have changed their culture -- that is, their ways -- enough to prevent their own demise?", might be answered in terms of post-classical Mayan civilization.

Then i would have to say the major force in the "demise" of post -classical Mayan civilisation was the Spanish---no?

 

[Sunstone]

Then i would have to say the major force in the "demise" of post -classical Mayan civilisation was the Spanish---no?

I don't care about the post classical Mayan, although you might.