"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES

[metis]

Now thats an idea...lets go and put someone in the naughty corner.

The problem is, these forum posts are for the benefit of others who read the nonesense...so if you place someone on the ignore list, you don't know the extent of the arguments used to discredit your unsound theology...but the others all see it. As you then don't respond, they get the impression you realise your goose is cooked.

You see how this works?

If you dont want someone essentially calling you out in a manner you are not happy about, perhaps you should improve the quality of your answers with sound intelligent thinking.

Oh btw...you appear to state you are/were a teacher of a sorts...you and me both. I studied, and completed bachelor of education degree 24 years ago, and taught high school.

Well, you have pretty much reestablished my point so, yes, I will shortly and regretfully put you on my ignore list.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

C

Well, you have pretty much reestablished my point so, yes, I will shortly and regretfully put you on my ignore list

Cant wait...at least I won't have to follow up by responding to someones "butt hurt" feelings.

 

[Oeste]

The only thing that is off is your understanding of Romans 7 as already proven in post # 3043 linked; post # 3044 linked; post # 3045 linked from the scriptures and scripture contexts why your understanding of Romans 7 is not biblical.

Nothing in either of these links "proves" any such thing at all as has already been demonstrated in #3064, #3074, and #3076. Scripture shows your understand of Romans 7 is not biblical.

Nothing personal but you are just repeating yourself here again

I agree with you totally. I've noticed other Christians on this forum have had to do the same.

I did indeed answer all your questions with scripture that was on disagreement with your teachings of lawlessness

You confuse your response as "answers". The two are not the same.

Look, I haven't forgotten you were unable to tell us, in a logical, coherent, manner why you refuse to "keep" the 4th Commandment by not working 6 days a week. That goes back to something very early in this thread. Since you have forgotten and/or think you have actually "answered" my query, let's demonstrate how you responded but failed to answer.

Fair enough?

The 4th Commandment requires and has two component parts:

1. SIX days of toil and labor2. ONE day of Sabbath (rest)
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates"

What was your answer @3rdAngel?

Why you dodged the work component of God's command totally, as if it was never there, choosing to dwell on the day of rest, which is certainly important, but just as certainly is not the entire command of God:

Trouble is I did not misunderstand you. I quoted you, claiming that Exodus 20:8-11 does not point back to Genesis 2:1-3 while proving from the scriptures that Exodus 20:8-11 is indeed pointing back to Genesis 2:1-3. So lets be honest here. If you make a mistake just own it as your posts here only proves it is you that does not understand scripture and that Exodus 20:11 is a reference back to Genesis 2:1-3 that is in disagreement with you. Exodus 20:8 is God telling is to "Remember" that is pointing backwards not forwards to things to come. Remember is a memorial to remember the Sabbath to to keep it holy with the reason given in Exodus 20:11 that says, "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and made it holy." The only place in scripture that tells us that God blessed the seventh day and made the seventh day a holy day of rest is found in Genesis 2:1-3 where it agrees with Exodus 20:8 and Exodus 20:11 saying "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. So as proven here Gods words disagrees with you dear friend. Receive Gods correction and be blessed. Ignoring Gods Word does not make it

The ancient Jews WORKED six days a week, SDA's work about 5, a clear violation of God's commandment that "...you SHALL labor". SIX days is not a suggestion 3rd Angel, it's a COMMAND, and it is as every bit of the 4th Commandment as every other part.

The whole idea of a 5 day work weeks did not occur until MODERN times during the industrial revolution. It started in England and rapidly spread throughout America and Europe. Prior to that, the general populace worked a full six days. As such, the 40 hour work week became law, and many found themselves not with one day of rest, but two days.

So we have the law of man that gives us 5 days of work, and we have the commandment of God that says 6 days of work. Guess which law you're following?

If you want to keep your holy day of rest on the 7th Day, then keep it. Nobody here has "abolished" it for you or anyone else. That claim is bogus.

But don't tell us you're "keeping" the Sabbath by taking 5 days of work and 2 days of rest when God Himself tells us it's 6 and 1 respectively. God did not make the 6th day of work "optional". You should work just as the ancient Jews worked.

God rested on the 7th creative day, but He worked EVERY OTHER CREATIVE day. You want to follow God through His creative days? Then do the same. Quite simply, if God had taken a 5 day work week, as many SDA's do, mankind would not be around, because man wasn't created until DAY 6!

Be consistent in your assertions, 3rd Angel. If we only have to obey 1/2 of the "4th" commandment, if we only have to rest but not work, then tell us why we shouldn't just obey 1/2 of the other nine.

 

[Oeste]

This is another response which you mistook for an answer:

The 4th Commandment is VERY SPECIFIC. It requires 6 days of toil BEFORE you can rest on His Sabbath. So at the time God rested, man had only (toiled?) in the garden paradise (hey, I'm just going along with what the Sabbath keepers are telling us) for a SINGLE day. Therefore they CANNOT rest on God's 7th Day because they could not possibly have completed the first 6 days of toil required by the 4th commandment!

Seriously? Who labored during the creation week was it God or man? Who rested after the creation week was finished and what day did God bless and make a holy day of rest? Here let me provide the answers from scripture again for you.

• Genesis 2:1-3 where it agrees with Exodus 20:8 and Exodus 20:11 saying "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Here you did quite well 3rdAngel! You come out gangbusters, asking the right questions, but not giving us an answer to any of them! Let's go through it:

Who labored during the creation week was it God or man? ​

Well that would obviously be God.

Who rested after the creation week was finished and what day did God bless and make a holy day of rest?​

Well that would obviously be God too.

Here let me provide the answers from scripture again for you.​

You offer to provide "answers" but unfortunately your response falls a bit flat. Let's look at it again:

• Genesis 2:1-3 where it agrees with Exodus 20:8 and Exodus 20:11 saying "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Your verse tells us God rested. We both agree God rested, but that was never the issue.

What your response doesn't tell us is WHY MAN NEEDED REST one day after his creation!

So let's ask the question AGAIN. You remarked I keep repeating myself over and over again, and I responded I am simply repeating myself to you in the same manner that everyone else needs to repeat themselves to you. This is a good example of why.

Your response quotes Genesis 2:1-3:

"... God ended from his work which he had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all HIS work which HE had made.​

So you asked the right question 3rdAngel, you just didn't finish it up. GOD and ONLY God worked, and GOD and ONLY God rested. Unfortunately, there is NOTHING here that furthers or even suggests that CREATION rested from GOD. This would include man.

That's a BIG, HUGE problem for your theology 3rdAngel. During the creative days, CREATION was NEVER at a state of UNREST from God. MAN was not toiling, and Man was not working. Man was ALREADY at rest with God because that was the way God created him.

So now we can ask a few questions about your asserted claims:

Was man at unrest when he was created?

No.

Is there any reason God would create man in a state of unrest?

No.

When was Man at rest?

The DAY BEFORE GOD rested.

Did Man need a rest from God's rest?

No.

Did God get tired? Did He really need day of rest?

Not at all, but He knew man eventually would.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Nothing in either of these links "proves" any such thing at all as has already been demonstrated in #3064, #3074, and #3076. Scripture shows your understand of Romans 7 is not biblical.



I agree with you totally. I've noticed other Christians on this forum have had to do the same.



You confuse your response as "answers". The two are not the same.

Look, I haven't forgotten you were unable to tell us, in a logical, coherent, manner why you refuse to "keep" the 4th Commandment by not working 6 days a week. That goes back to something very early in this thread. Since you have forgotten and/or think you have actually "answered" my query, let's demonstrate how you responded but failed to answer.

Fair enough?



What was your answer @3rdAngel?

Why you dodged the work component of God's command totally, as if it was never there, choosing to dwell on the day of rest, which is certainly important, but just as certainly is not the entire command of God:





The ancient Jews WORKED six days a week, SDA's work about 5, a clear violation of God's commandment that "...you SHALL labor". SIX days is not a suggestion 3rd Angel, it's a COMMAND, and it is as every bit of the 4th Commandment as every other part.

The whole idea of a 5 day work weeks did not occur until MODERN times during the industrial revolution. It started in England and rapidly spread throughout America and Europe. Prior to that, the general populace worked a full six days. As such, the 40 hour work week became law, and many found themselves not with one day of rest, but two days.

So we have the law of man that gives us 5 days of work, and we have the commandment of God that says 6 days of work. Guess which law you're following?

If you want to keep your holy day of rest on the 7th Day, then keep it. Nobody here has "abolished" it for you or anyone else. That claim is bogus.

But don't tell us you're "keeping" the Sabbath by taking 5 days of work and 2 days of rest when God Himself tells us it's 6 and 1 respectively. God did not make the 6th day of work "optional". You should work just as the ancient Jews worked.

God rested on the 7th creative day, but He worked EVERY OTHER CREATIVE day. You want to follow God through His creative days? Then do the same. Quite simply, if God had taken a 5 day work week, as many SDA's do, mankind would not be around, because man wasn't created until DAY 6!

Be consistent in your assertions, 3rd Angel. If we only have to obey 1/2 of the "4th" commandment, if we only have to rest but not work, then tell us why we shouldn't just obey 1/2 of the other nine.

your so called "unanswered question regarding the 4th commandment is a copout. You cannot apply a rule demanding that only a Sabbath keeper must work 6 days. If this principle were to be taken as you seem to claim it should, that means it also applies to sunday worshipers as well.... including you!

The correct theology for the Seventh Day of worship is misunderstood. God is telling us that we have 6 days in which to do all of our labour and work...things that are daily activities and chores in you like, however, the Seventh Day is a special day of worship and communion with our Creator. As evidence of the real meaning of the sabbath, i refer you to the collection of manna by the israelites in the sinai desert. They were to collect a double portion on Friday only...a double portion collected on any other day of the week did not last beyond 24 hours...it went rancid. Also, no mana fell on the ground on Sabbath.

The commandment has nothing to do with demanding we must work...it is demanding that we must worship with our creator on the day HE chose...the Sabbath! It was in commemoration of the fact that we have a creator God and that he made the earth in 6 Days!

It should come as no suprise that someone who doesnt follow the sabbath commandment also doesnt understand Sabbath theology and your ridiculous argument proves that.

Perhaps 3rd angel might also go into how the Sabbath is related to the "entering into Christs rest" at the second coming (if he hasnt already done so in this thread). That is a vital component of Sabbath doctrine and Christ calling Himself "Lord of the Sabbath".

I will simply finish by reiterating Revelation 14:12

12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.​

These are the 10 commandments (including the 4th - Sabbath) and its very clear (given Revelation was written 60 years after Christs death), that the apostle John clearly believed in the Seventh Day Sabbath in A.D 90-100 when he wrote the book.

 

[3rdAngel]

These are simply not "ceremonial laws", which only goes to show that you did not even view the link I provided you that lists the 613 Commandments under the Law of Moses. However, if one is a Gentile who believes in Jesus, only his "Two Commandments" are necessary. Don't you believe him when he taught that? Do you really care?

As posted earlier, we are talking about Gods 10 commandments though, spoken and written by God alone on two tables of stone (Exodus 20:1-17; Exodus 32:16) and repeated in both the old and new covenant scriptures. We are not talking about the ceremonial laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings and or the ceremonial shadow laws of the earthly Sanctuary and Levitical Priesthood and annual feast days and circumcision that are all now fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10-1-22. We are in the new covenant now not the old (see Jeremiah 31:31-36; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and Hebrews 8:10-12). According to the scriptures there is only 10 commandments in Gods 10 commandments not 9 or 613 (see Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13 and Deuteronomy 10:4). You simply ignored this post that shows your claims to be untruthful.

 

[3rdAngel]

This is another response which you mistook for an answer:






Here you did quite well 3rdAngel! You come out gangbusters, asking the right questions, but not giving us an answer to any of them! Let's go through it:

Who labored during the creation week was it God or man? ​

Well that would obviously be God.

Who rested after the creation week was finished and what day did God bless and make a holy day of rest?​

Well that would obviously be God too.

Here let me provide the answers from scripture again for you.​

You offer to provide "answers" but unfortunately your response falls a bit flat. Let's look at it again:

• Genesis 2:1-3 where it agrees with Exodus 20:8 and Exodus 20:11 saying "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Your verse tells us God rested. We both agree God rested, but that was never the issue.

What your response doesn't tell us is WHY MAN NEEDED REST one day after his creation!

So let's ask the question AGAIN. You remarked I keep repeating myself over and over again, and I responded I am simply repeating myself to you in the same manner that everyone else needs to repeat themselves to you. This is a good example of why.

Your response quotes Genesis 2:1-3:

"... God ended from his work which he had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all HIS work which HE had made.​

So you asked the right question 3rdAngel, you just didn't finish it up. GOD and ONLY God worked, and GOD and ONLY God rested. Unfortunately, there is NOTHING here that furthers or even suggests that CREATION rested from GOD. This would include man.

That's a BIG, HUGE problem for your theology 3rdAngel. During the creative days, CREATION was NEVER at a state of UNREST from God. MAN was not toiling, and Man was not working. Man was ALREADY at rest with God because that was the way God created him.

So now we can ask a few questions about your asserted claims:

Was man at unrest when he was created?

No.

Is there any reason God would create man in a state of unrest?

No.

When was Man at rest?

The DAY BEFORE GOD rested.

Did Man need a rest from God's rest?

No.

Did God get tired? Did He really need day of rest?

Not at all, but He knew man eventually would.

You do know you missed it again? Do you know how your whole post simply falls over here? Gods Sabbath commandment was made for man not God (see Mark 2:27; Exodus 20:8-11). Please think your arguments through before posting.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: The only thing that is off is your understanding of Romans 7 as already proven in post # 3043 linked; post # 3044 linked; post # 3045 linked from the scriptures and scripture contexts why your understanding of Romans 7 is not biblical.

Your response here..

Nothing in either of these links "proves" any such thing at all as has already been demonstrated in #3064, #3074, and #3076. Scripture shows your understand of Romans 7 is not biblical.

Well that is not true at all. You simply ignored those linked posts and did not respond to any of the content in them that is in disagreement with your understanding of Romans 7 from the scriptures shared with you that are in disagreement with you. I even posted most Sunday keeping scholars commentary on Romans 7 who were also in disagreement with you. You just ignored them. So it looks like you are out there all by your self on this one unable to receive Gods correction. That alone should be a red flag for you.

You confuse your response as "answers". The two are not the same.

Not at all. I posted you scripture in disagreement with you. They are Gods Words not mine. Do with them as you will. I will leave them between you and God to work through but be it known to you ignoring Gods Word does not make it disappear according to Jesus in John 1`2:47-48. The Words of God we accept or reject become our judge come judgement day.

Look, I haven't forgotten you were unable to tell us, in a logical, coherent, manner why you refuse to "keep" the 4th Commandment by not working 6 days a week. That goes back to something very early in this thread. Since you have forgotten and/or think you have actually "answered" my query, let's demonstrate how you responded but failed to answer.

Seems there is no truth in you as your trying to justify your teachings of lawlessness and sin. The bible does not teach what you believe. I do indeed keep Gods Sabbath commandment (Exodus 20:8-11). I already told you earlier I did.

What was your answer @3rdAngel? Why you dodged the work component of God's command totally, as if it was never there, choosing to dwell on the day of rest, which is certainly important, but just as certainly is not the entire command of God

I did not dodge anything. I already told you I keep Gods Sabbath commandment (Exodus 20:8-11). Are you trying to justify yourself in breaking it?

The ancient Jews WORKED six days a week, SDA's work about 5, a clear violation of God's commandment that "...you SHALL labor". SIX days is not a suggestion 3rd Angel, it's a COMMAND, and it is as every bit of the 4th Commandment as every other part. The whole idea of a 5 day work weeks did not occur until MODERN times during the industrial revolution. It started in England and rapidly spread throughout America and Europe. Prior to that, the general populace worked a full six days. As such, the 40 hour work week became law, and many found themselves not with one day of rest, but two days. So we have the law of man that gives us 5 days of work, and we have the commandment of God that says 6 days of work. Guess which law you're following? If you want to keep your holy day of rest on the 7th Day, then keep it. Nobody here has "abolished" it for you or anyone else. That claim is bogus. But don't tell us you're "keeping" the Sabbath by taking 5 days of work and 2 days of rest when God Himself tells us it's 6 and 1 respectively. God did not make the 6th day of work "optional". You should work just as the ancient Jews worked. God rested on the 7th creative day, but He worked EVERY OTHER CREATIVE day. You want to follow God through His creative days? Then do the same. Quite simply, if God had taken a 5 day work week, as many SDA's do, mankind would not be around, because man wasn't created until DAY 6! Be consistent in your assertions, 3rd Angel. If we only have to obey 1/2 of the "4th" commandment, if we only have to rest but not work, then tell us why we shouldn't just obey 1/2 of the other nine.

Well that is not true and this only shows you do not understand the scriptures and their meaning. Work in the Hebrew includes not only secular work but also any domestic work and buying and selling including shopping which is a business (work) transaction. It seems you clearly do not understand the scriptures trying to justify your sins. As you can see I am being consistent seeing how easily every one of your arguments to justify your teachings of lawlessness are so easily dismantled. According to the scriptures only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow them (Romans 3:4; Acts 5:32) over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us into sin and unbelief according to the very words of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9.

Take Care.

 

[Oeste]

You certainly have no understanding of the scriptures and this is genuine proof right here. The "body of Christ" in Romans 7 is not in reference to the Church here it is a reference to Christs death on the cross paying the price for our sins so that we through faith can walk in newness of life

WOW!

That was a bit off the charts 3rdAngel.

So "the body of Christ" is not a reference to the church.

Ooookay, I'm listening, but I'm not sure if I'm listening to an Adventist. My bad, I thought I was, so let's get right down to the real nitty-gritty then. It may help me and any of our readers make more sense of your post.

I am once again REPEATING our prior conversation (see above), much like I and many other Christians have had to do before. Why?

Because of your response. Here it is:

SUNDAY SCHOLAR COMMENTARIES ON "THE BODY OF CHRIST" NOT BEING THE CHURCH IN ROMANS 7:4

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
By the body of Christ - Which was slain for you. No reference to the mystical Body, the Church, (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 10; Eph.; Col. is to be sought here. The word “body” is used, instead of “death,” probably to remind the readers that the Lord “took our nature upon Him” expressly in view of His death.

Your ORIGINAL argument stated "The body of Christ" in Romans 7 is not in reference to the Church here...."

But your subsequent comment NARROWS Romans 7 to simply Romans 7:4!

That's called "Moving the goalposts" my friend. Romans 7 is 25 verses. Roman 7:4 is only 1.

That's equivalent to reducing the goalposts by a factor of 25! A 25 foot goalpost is suddenly a foot.

Look at post # 3061 for example. There is not a single Sunday keeping scholar that agrees with anything you have posted in our discussion here.

I looked at it. ALL the "Sunday keeping scholars" agree with me. You are simply "proof-texting" (IMO, rather badly).

That's not a problem @3rdAngel. I love commentaries. But I'm not going to go through all of them. It's getting late and just a few should serve my purpose. I am surprised but grateful you would pick these commentators and I may even suggest one for you. But first, let's see if we can get some of these allegedly "disagreeable" commentaries straightened out.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges​

By the body of Christ - Which was slain for you. No reference to the mystical Body, the Church, (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 10; Eph.; Col. is to be sought here. The word “body” is used, instead of “death,” probably to remind the readers that the Lord “took our nature upon Him” expressly in view of His death.​

Hmmmmmmmmm....

I have to admit, you surprised me with this one. IMO, it's a rather unusual commentator for you to have picked out!

Let's see. He talks about the mystical Body, the Church. Lots of clues right there.

Did you notice? Two words are capitalized, both Body and Church. And we have an Anglican Bishop speaking to us from the 19th Century, and we're trying to determine the original intent of the Author when he made wrote this commentary.

Offhand, I would say he is claiming there is no reference to a specific church. He is not claiming there's no reference to the church at all. Since there is no reference to a specific church, I would certainly agree with him on this.

Okay, so let's take another walk and discuss Roman 7:4. We won't even discuss the rest of Romans 7. I think verse 4 will do very nicely.

Ready?

Here's the CBSC translation of verse 7:4:

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

More clues. Paul states "my brethren" and also the term "ye" in his opening to the verse. Who was he referring to if not the church? Probably just two guys who happened to be walking across his field of vision at that time.

Let's move on to with the authors analysis via CBSC:

Did you notice? I'm referring to the section that says "Which was slain for you" which appears in the commentary right after "By the body of Christ", outlined in red above.

That section in italics is scripture, the section beginning "Which was slain for you" begins the authors commentary for this verse.

Are we agreed?

So the question to ask now is: Who is the "you" in "Which was slain for you"?


Is it:

1. Christ, or​

2. Some person unknown, or​

3. The individual believer that comprises the church?​

Here's what I think 3rd Angel:

The author is stating there is no reference to a specific Church, the mystic Body, but he is not saying there is no reference to the church in general. Christ's physical body was slain for "you", which includes any believer in the church.

Let's move on:

By the body of Christ - Which was slain for you. No reference to the mystical Body, the Church, (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 10; Eph.; Col. is to be sought here. The word “body” is used, instead of “death,” probably to remind the readers that the Lord “took our nature upon Him” expressly in view of His death. (See Hebrews 2:14.) Meanwhile the truth of the connexion between believers and their Head, their Second Adam, is still full in view. By virtue of it the death of the Lord counts as the death of His brethren, in respect of the claim of the Law upon them—here figured as the claim of one marriage-partner over the other, to be broken only by the death of one of the two.

Also, since you brought up this commentator, can you give us your thoughts on who "our" might be in "took our nature upon Him", what does "connexion between believers and their Head" means, and why the author thinks "...the death of the Lord counts as the death of His brethren".

Lastly can you explain who "His brethren" are if the author is giving no reference to the church?


So we have at least one out of the way. Again, I am pressed for time and it's late. We can do another later.

 

[3rdAngel]

I am once again REPEATING our prior conversation (see above), much like I and many other Christians have had to do before. Why?

Because of your response. Here it is:



Your ORIGINAL argument stated "The body of Christ" in Romans 7 is not in reference to the Church here...."

But your subsequent comment NARROWS Romans 7 to simply Romans 7:4!

That's called "Moving the goalposts" my friend. Romans 7 is 25 verses. Roman 7:4 is only 1.

That's equivalent to reducing the goalposts by a factor of 25! A 25 foot goalpost is suddenly a foot.




I looked at it. ALL the "Sunday keeping scholars" agree with me. You are simply "proof-texting" (IMO, rather badly).

That's not a problem @3rdAngel. I love commentaries. But I'm not going to go through all of them. It's getting late and just a few should serve my purpose. I am surprised but grateful you would pick these commentators and I may even suggest one for you. But first, let's see if we can get some of these allegedly "disagreeable" commentaries straightened out.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges​

By the body of Christ - Which was slain for you. No reference to the mystical Body, the Church, (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 10; Eph.; Col. is to be sought here. The word “body” is used, instead of “death,” probably to remind the readers that the Lord “took our nature upon Him” expressly in view of His death.​

Hmmmmmmmmm....

I have to admit, you surprised me with this one. IMO, it's a rather unusual commentator for you to have picked out!

Let's see. He talks about the mystical Body, the Church. Lots of clues right there.

Did you notice? Two words are capitalized, both Body and Church. And we have an Anglican Bishop speaking to us from the 19th Century, and we're trying to determine the original intent of the Author when he made wrote this commentary.

Offhand, I would say he is claiming there is no reference to a specific church. He is not claiming there's no reference to the church at all. Since there is no reference to a specific church, I would certainly agree with him on this.

Okay, so let's take another walk and discuss Roman 7:4. We won't even discuss the rest of Romans 7. I think verse 4 will do very nicely.

Ready?

Here's the CBSC translation of verse 7:4:

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

More clues. Paul states "my brethren" and also the term "ye" in his opening to the verse. Who was he referring to if not the church? Probably just two guys who happened to be walking across his field of vision at that time.

Let's move on to with the authors analysis via CBSC:
View attachment 86555
Did you notice? I'm referring to the section that says "Which was slain for you" which appears in the commentary right after "By the body of Christ", outlined in red above.

That section in italics is scripture, the section beginning "Which was slain for you" begins the authors commentary for this verse.

Are we agreed?

So the question to ask now is: Who is the "you" in "Which was slain for you"?

View attachment 86554
Is it:

1. Christ, or​

2. Some person unknown, or​

3. The individual believer that comprises the church? ................. (snipped)​

Did you even read your post? Here let me help you with what most Sunday keeping Scholars say in regards to the meaning of "the body of Christ" used in Romans 7 and what it is referring to if it might be a help to you....

Unlike your last post these Sunday keeping scholars are commenting on "the body of Christ that was slain for us" in the scripture we are discussing from Romans 7:4 and note carefully how everyone of them are in disagreement with your interpretation of "the body of Christ" in Romans 7:4 being a reference to the Church body in this chapter. The application is to Christs death for our sins... It is talking about Christs body being slain for our sins. The Church is not slain for our sins. Christs body was! Your belief literally makes no sense and no one believes it accept you.

SUNDAY SCHOLAR COMMENTARIES ON "THE BODY OF CHRIST" NOT BEING THE CHURCH IN ROMANS 7:4

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
By the body of Christ - Which was slain for you. No reference to the mystical Body, the Church, (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 10; Eph.; Col. is to be sought here. The word “body” is used, instead of “death,” probably to remind the readers that the Lord “took our nature upon Him” expressly in view of His death.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
By the body of Christ - That is, by his body crucified; or in other words, by his death; compare Ephesians 2:15, "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity," etc. that is, by his death. Colossians 1:22, "in the body of his flesh through death," etc. Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24, "who bare our sins in his own body on the tree." The sense, is, therefore, that by the death of Christ as an atoning sacrifice; by his suffering for us what would be sufficient to meet the demands of the Law

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
By the body of Christ—i.e., by the death of the human body of Christ upon the cross. The Christian, as the last chapter has shown, is so united to Christ that whatever has happened to his Master has happened also to him. Christ was put to death upon the cross; he therefore has also been put to death with Him. But why put to death to the Law? Probably all that is meant is simply that the Christian died, and therefore all the relations contracted before that death came to an end. At the same time he entered upon new relations corresponding to his new and risen state.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
By the body of Christ—through His slain body. The apostle here departs from his usual word "died," using the more expressive phrase "were slain," to make it clear that he meant their being "crucified with Christ" (as expressed in Ro 6:3-6, and Ga 2:20). that ye should be married to another, even to him that is—"was." raised from the dead—to the intent.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
By the body of Christ - ; not by Christ, as the body or substance of the ceremonial law; see Colossians 2:17; since that is not singly designed, but the whole law of Moses; but by "the body of Christ", is either meant Christ himself

Meyer's NT Commentary
By the body of Christ - was put to death. The conception of the participation of believers (as respects their inner life and its moral self-consciousness) in the death of their Lord, according to which the putting to death of their Master included their own putting to death, is justly assumed by Paul, after ch. 6, as something present to the consciousness of his readers, and therefore views deviating from this (e. g. that διὰ τ. σώμ. τ. Χ. applies to the atoning sacrificial death, which did away the dominion of the law) are to be rejected as here irrelevant, and not in keeping with the proper sense of ἐθανατ.

Benson Commentary
By the body of Christ — By the offering up of Christ’s body on the cross; that is, by the merit of his death, by which it evidently appears, that there is no other way of making reconciliation for sin, or of obtaining deliverance from wrath but by that; his death and sufferings having now accomplished the design of the law, and abrogated its authority; and it, therefore, expiring with him.

Bengel's Gnomen
By the body of Christ - A great mystery. In the expiation [atonement] for sin, why is it that mention generally is made of the body, rather than of the soul of Christ? Ans. The theatre and workshop of sin is our flesh; and for this, it is the holy flesh of the Son of God, which is the remedy.

.....

Look friend... All the above Sunday scholars here are in disagreement with your interpretation of Romans 7:4 "By the body of Christ" being a reference to the Church and are agreeing with what I have already posted to you. This should be a helpful warning for you to help you give up your false teachings of lawlessness and to help you come back to God and His Word. If we continue in our sins and unbelief according to the scriptures we will be lost in them. (see Hebrews 10:26-31; Matthew 7:13-23)

Take Care.

 

[metis]

As posted earlier, we are talking about Gods 10 commandments though, spoken and written by God alone on two tables of stone (Exodus 20:1-17; Exodus 32:16) and repeated in both the old and new covenant scriptures. We are not talking about the ceremonial laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings and or the ceremonial shadow laws of the earthly Sanctuary and Levitical Priesthood and annual feast days and circumcision that are all now fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10-1-22. We are in the new covenant now not the old (see Jeremiah 31:31-36; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and Hebrews 8:10-12). According to the scriptures there is only 10 commandments in Gods 10 commandments not 9 or 613 (see Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13 and Deuteronomy 10:4). You simply ignored this post that shows your claims to be untruthful.

Do you observe Shabbat? If so, how?

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Look friend... All the above Sunday scholars here are in disagreement with your interpretation of Romans 7:4 "By the body of Christ" being a reference to the Church and are agreeing with what I have already posted to you. This should be a helpful warning for you to help you give up your false teachings of lawlessness and to help you come back to God and His Word. If we continue in our sins and unbelief according to the scriptures we will be lost in them. (see Hebrews 10:26-31; Matthew 7:13-23)

I would also add...he should continue reading Romans 7 and take note of the following verses...(especially vs 25)

24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Then read the following...

1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

And

Romans 6:14,17
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace…

The battle here is between the desires of the mind and the desires of the flesh. It is not that we should not keep the law, that we are not judged by the law. We are judged by the law, however, because of the cloak of Christs righteousness, we are deemed not guilty. We are still expected to follow the 10 commandments...even Paul believed that clearly.

 

[3rdAngel]

Do you observe Shabbat? If so, how?

Hello @metis. Yes by following what the scriptures teach. Its one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and right doing when obeyed. It is also repeated in the new covenant as everyone of Gods 10 commandments are as the standard for Christian living. I am happy to share the scriptures with you if you are genuinely interested. Are you interested?

 

[3rdAngel]

I would also add...he should continue reading Romans 7 and take note of the following verses...(especially vs 25)

24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Then read the following...

1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

And

Romans 6:14,17
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace…

The battle here is between the desires of the mind and the desires of the flesh. It is not that we should not keep the law, that we are not judged by the law. We are judged by the law, however, because of the cloak of Christs righteousness, we are deemed not guilty. We are still expected to follow the 10 commandments...even Paul believed that clearly.

Absolutely Adam, I have already been sharing this in older posts to @Oeste you can also add in there Romans 6:1-23; Romans 8:1-13; John 3:3-7 compare 1 John 3:4-9 and 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14 and Matthew 7:13-23.

Happy Sabbath.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hello @metis. Yes by following what the scriptures teach. Its one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and right doing when obeyed. It is also repeated in the new covenant as everyone of Gods 10 commandments are as the standard for Christian living. I am happy to share the scriptures with you if you are genuinely interested. Are you interested?

How do you define work and on what do you base your interpretation? Is it work to mow your law? Clean your house? Cook? Write a letter? Take a bath? Care for the kids? What is your standard, and where do you find it?

 

[3rdAngel]

How do you define work and on what do you base your interpretation? Is it work to mow your law? Clean your house? Cook? Write a letter? Take a bath? Care for the kids? What is your standard, and where do you find it?

According to Gods Sabbath commandment which is one of Gods 10 commandments found in Exodus 20:8-11 the scriptures here specifically state in v10 "THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD" IN IT YOU SHALL DO NO WORK" The Hebrew word for work here is מְלָאכָה (mᵉlâʼkâh | H4399) and it means all business (buying and selling, shopping), employment, occupation, domestic work including cooking and cleaning. The focus of Exodus 20:8-11 is that we are free to do our own work, six other days of the week, but the "seventh day" (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset our time) is Gods Sabbath day that God blessed and made a holy day of rest and no work is to be done in it. However, according to Jesus, it is lawful to do good works on the (see Matthew 12:1-12). Breaking Gods Sabbath commandment just like anyone of Gods 10 commandments is sin according to the scriptures (see 1 John 3:4 compare with James 2:10-11) and if we continue practicing known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth of Gods Word we will be in danger of the judgement and can lose everlasting life (see Hebrews 10:26-31).

 

[IndigoChild5559]

According to Gods Sabbath commandment which is one of Gods 10 commandments found in Exodus 20:8-11 the scriptures here specifically state in v10 "THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD" IN IT YOU SHALL DO NO WORK" The Hebrew word for work here is מְלָאכָה (mᵉlâʼkâh | H4399) and it means all business (buying and selling, shopping), employment, occupation, domestic work including cooking and cleaning. The focus of Exodus 20:8-11 is that we are free to do our own work, six other days of the week, but the "seventh day" (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset our time) is Gods Sabbath day that God blessed and made a holy day of rest and no work is to be done in it. However, according to Jesus, it is lawful to do good works on the (see Matthew 12:1-12). Breaking Gods Sabbath commandment just like anyone of Gods 10 commandments is sin according to the scriptures (see 1 John 3:4 compare with James 2:10-11) and if we continue practicing known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth of Gods Word we will be in danger of the judgement and can lose everlasting life (see Hebrews 10:26-31).

You did not address my question. How do YOU define work, and what is your source for your interpretation.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: According to Gods Sabbath commandment which is one of Gods 10 commandments found in Exodus 20:8-11 the scriptures here specifically state in v10 "THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD" IN IT YOU SHALL DO NO WORK" The Hebrew word for work here is מְלָאכָה (mᵉlâʼkâh | H4399) and it means all business (buying and selling, shopping), employment, occupation, domestic work including cooking and cleaning. The focus of Exodus 20:8-11 is that we are free to do our own work, six other days of the week, but the "seventh day" (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset our time) is Gods Sabbath day that God blessed and made a holy day of rest and no work is to be done in it. However, according to Jesus, it is lawful to do good works on the (see Matthew 12:1-12). Breaking Gods Sabbath commandment just like anyone of Gods 10 commandments is sin according to the scriptures (see 1 John 3:4 compare with James 2:10-11) and if we continue practicing known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth of Gods Word we will be in danger of the judgement and can lose everlasting life (see Hebrews 10:26-31).

Your response here...

You did not address my question. How do YOU define work, and what is your source for your interpretation.

Perhaps you can start by opening your eyes and reading my post that you are responding to before posting? I did indeed address your question on how do I define work. I define WORK in the very same way that the scriptures define work as already shown in the post you are responding to but ignored.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Your response here...

Perhaps you can start by opening your eyes and reading my post that you are responding to before posting? I did indeed address your question on how do I define work. I define WORK in the very same way that the scriptures define work as already shown in the post you are responding to but ignored.

The scriptures do not define work. That's the problem. It necessitates interpretation. For Jews, we have the Oral Torah to interpret for us. I assume that's not the case for you, thus my question:

How do you define work, and what is your source for this interpretation.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: According to Gods Sabbath commandment which is one of Gods 10 commandments found in Exodus 20:8-11 the scriptures here specifically state in v10 "THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD" IN IT YOU SHALL DO NO WORK" The Hebrew word for work here is מְלָאכָה (mᵉlâʼkâh | H4399) and it means all business (buying and selling, shopping), employment, occupation, domestic work including cooking and cleaning. The focus of Exodus 20:8-11 is that we are free to do our own work, six other days of the week, but the "seventh day" (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset our time) is Gods Sabbath day that God blessed and made a holy day of rest and no work is to be done in it. However, according to Jesus, it is lawful to do good works on the (see Matthew 12:1-12). Breaking Gods Sabbath commandment just like anyone of Gods 10 commandments is sin according to the scriptures (see 1 John 3:4 compare with James 2:10-11) and if we continue practicing known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth of Gods Word we will be in danger of the judgement and can lose everlasting life (see Hebrews 10:26-31).

Your response here...

The scriptures do not define work. That's the problem. It necessitates interpretation. For Jews, we have the Oral Torah to interpret for us. I assume that's not the case for you, thus my question:

How do you define work, and what is your source for this interpretation.

Sure they do.. read the Hebrew already posted. Already defined in the post you were quoting from that did not read. Hebrew word for work here is מְלָאכָה (mᵉlâʼkâh | H4399) and it means all business (buying and selling, shopping), employment, occupation, domestic work including cooking and cleaning.