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Featured The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Romans 14:20 says 20, For meat (food) destroy not the work of God (God's church). All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eats with offense. Context is eating and not eating (fasting) in days that men esteem over other days and food sacrificed to idols and judging others in this topic. The scripture is not saying there are no more food dietry laws and we are now free to break them. I think COVID19 is a good example of what happens when we break Gods dietry laws.
     
    #721 3rdAngel, Mar 24, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    When Paul says "all things indeed are clean", that seems pretty clear. Now you are trying to contrive that into something about days, and idols. Paul said "an idol is nothing at all", and that eating or not eating to idols is a mind came (knowledge of good and evil), and as he has knowledge he can, but the weak in faith can't. Revelation says that those of Balaam will entice Israelites to eat things sacrificed to idols and commit adultery, yet Paul claims to be Jewish, of the tribe of Benjamin. Apparently those with knowledge, whether Jew or Gentile can eat things sacrificed to idols, which is exactly the opposite what Paul was told in Jerusalem. I think Paul is not only a hypocrite, but his followers seem to be double minded. I think your sandy foundation of leaning on the teachings of Paul is crumbling as the hour passes.

    1 Corinthians 8:4 4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that "An idol is nothing at all in the world" and that "There is no God but one."

    Revelation 2:14 14Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality.

    Acts 15:29 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really. I believe your only surface reading in relation to clean and unclean and not considering scripture application and chapter context.

    ROMANS 14:2,3,5,6,14,17,20

    The New Testament writers referred to two concepts of unclean, using different Greek words to convey the two meanings. Unclean could refer to animals God did not intend to be consumed as food (listed in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14). Unclean could also refer to ceremonial uncleanness.

    In Romans 14 Paul uses the word koinos, which means “common” (W.E. Vine, Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “Unclean,” p. 649). In addition to the meanings of “common” and “ordinary” (see Acts 2:44; Acts 4:32; Titus 1:4; Hebrews 10:29), the word also applied to things considered polluted or defiled. This word, along with its verb form koinoo, is used in Mark 7:2, Mark 7:15-23, where it obviously refers to ceremonial uncleanness.

    Koinos and koinoo appear throughout the New Testament to refer to this kind of ceremonial uncleanness. Something could be “common”—ceremonially unclean—even though it was otherwise considered a scripturally clean meat.

    An entirely different word, akathartos, is used in the New Testament for those animals Scripture specifies as unclean. Both words, koinos and akathartos, are used in Acts 10, where Peter distinguished between the two concepts of uncleanness by using both words in Acts 10:14.

    When Paul said in Romans 14:14 that “I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean [ koinos, or ‘common’] of itself,” he was making the same point he had made earlier to the Corinthians: Just because meat that was otherwise lawful to eat may have been associated with idol worship does not mean it is no longer fit for human consumption. As seen from the context, Paul wasn’t discussing biblical dietary restrictions at all.

    Paul goes on to state in Romans 14:20 that “all food is clean” (NIV). The word translated “clean” is katharos, meaning “free from impure admixture, without blemish, spotless” (Vine, “Clean, Cleanness, Cleanse, Cleansing,” p. 103).

    “Clean” meats as such aren’t addressed in the New Testament, so there isn’t a specific word to describe them. Katharos is used to describe all kinds of cleanliness and purity, including clean dishes (Matthew 23:26), people (John 13:10) and clothing (Revelation 15:6; Revelation 19:8-14), “pure” religion (James 1:27), gold and glass (Revelation 21:18).

    Realize also that, in both Romans 14:14 and Romans 14:20, the word food or meat doesn’t appear in the original Greek, but was inserted by later translators. No specific object is mentioned relative to cleanness or uncleanness. The sense of these verses is merely that “nothing [is] unclean [ koinos: common or ceremonially defiled] of itself,” and “all is clean [ katharos: free from impure admixture, without blemish, spotless].”

    Paul’s point is that association of food with idolatrous activity had no bearing on whether the food was inherently suitable or unsuitable for eating. Understood in its context, Romans 14 does not convey permission to ignore the biblical laws as to which meats are clean or unclean.

    Hope this helps
     
    #723 3rdAngel, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    "All food" is not "clean". You have clean and you have unclean, regardless of cleanliness. You can sacrifice clean or unclean food to the gods. Titus, Pompey, and Antiochus all sacrificed unclean swine to their gods at the Temple. Paul's apparent perspective is that there are no gods, so you can eat the sacrifice, and he doesn't mention clean or unclean. But the problem is that there are gods, the fallen angels, their demon offspring, and Constantine's god, Sol Invictus, would represent the "dragon", or the devil, whose day of worship is the day of the Sun. The dragon's pawn would be Paul, and his message is that you "surely shall not die".(Genesis 3:4) if you believe my message. Paul's message remains opposed to Yeshua's kingdom of heaven, which is the main element of the OT and the prophets.
     
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    True, all food is not clean as shown in the food laws in Gods Word. Your comments in relation to "the gods" and Paul? I am sorry I do not get that in any of the scriptures from Gods' Word nor believe your claims in this matter are biblical.
     
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    You might also notice when reading through Genesis 1, that it is not until day four that God sets 'lights in the firmament'.

    Genesis 1:16.'And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.'

    This means that when God first divided his day into day and night, or into evening and morning, he was not using the 24 hour clock [Genesis 1:5]. The 24 hour clock is not the clock in God's 'day', because the very 'lights' that determine man's clock were not made until day four.

    The 24 hour clock is intended for man's day, not God's day. God can choose to make his day any length he likes, and that is why it says, 'AS a thousand years'.

    This must mean that the FINISHED WORK of God was not the weekly sabbath [the type] but the sabbatical millennium, or the rest that is found in Christ.

    As for God's commandment regarding the sabbath in Exodus 16.

    Exodus 16:28,29.'And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
    See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath [See Exodus 16:23], therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.'

    The claim that Abraham followed the Ten Commandments, as opposed to the voice of God in faith, is the real nonsense. It's impossible to be both a man of faith and a man under law, but this is the claim you make when you refer to Genesis 26:5. You claim that Abraham had knowledge of the 'whole law', ordinances included, and kept them. Yet nowhere in Genesis, from Adam to Moses, do we hear of the sabbath being kept. Even the claim that the burnt offerings made in Genesis were made in the knowledge of the law, is absurd. These were not sin offerings but 'a sweet savour unto the Lord' [Genesis 8:21]

    Having failed to understand the nature of faith in the opening chapters of the Bible, you then translate this corruption of the scripture to the New Testament as well. Instead of living by faith and grace, you would have us live according to a strange mix of faith and the works of our own righteousness!

    Text after text in the epistles, Paul demonstrates that grace is not of the law. When you walk by the Spirit you are listening to the voice of God, and that is faith. The law is a schoolmaster, it teaches the outward standards of right and wrong, but it cannot account for every situation that we will confront. Having understood that God's love completes all that is required by the law, we should press on in faith.

    1 Timothy 1:5. 'Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
    From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
    Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.'
     
    #726 Redemptionsong, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  7. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "another" beast (Revelation 13:11) is the same "another" "king" of Daniel 7:24-25, Constantine, who "will subdue three kings" and "intend to make alterations in times and in law". The 3 subdued kings were Daia, Severus, and Licinius. Caesar Constantine received his authority by way Julius Caesar, the 5th head of the beast, who received his authority from the dragon/devil/Apollo/Sol Invictus/Bel (Revelation 13:4). Julius Caesar changed the calendar and Constantine changed the law in respect to the times when he initiated Sunday as the Roman day of rest in honor of Sol Invictus. Not much to understand since this is all recorded history. As far as the false prophet and the beast and the dragon/devil, well, Revelation 19:20-21 spells out what happens to their unclean spirits, and to those with their mark.
     
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really. I believe that the scriptures teach that God separated the light and darkness on the first day which made up the evening and the morning and the first day

    GENESIS 1:3-6. [3], And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. [4], And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. [5], And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And THE EVENING AND THE MORNING (Light and Night being the day) WAS THE FIRST DAY.

    There was no firmaments, Sun and Moon ands stars of the heavens at this point and there was no world (earth) until after the third day (evening and morning time wise) *GENESIS 1:6-13.

    Once the world was created, God said, [14] "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and LET THEM BE FOR SIGNS AND FOR SEASONS AND FOR DAYS AND YEARS: [15], And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth: and it was so. [16], And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [17], And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth, [18], And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [19,] And THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FOURTH DAY *GENESIS 1:14-19.

    What I believe this means is exactly what the scripture says and that is God separated the LIGHT and the DARKNESS in an "EVENING and MORNING DAY ONE" *GENENSIS 1:3-5. God created the firmaments in an "EVENING AND MORNING DAY 2" *GENESIS 1:6-8, God created the earth in an "EVENING AND MORNING DAY 3" *GENESIS 1:9-13 and the reason God made the Sun and the moon was to help us to know time and that an EVENING and a MORNING make up a DAY.

    God said, [14] "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and LET THEM BE FOR SIGNS AND FOR SEASONS AND FOR DAYS AND YEARS: [15], And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth: and it was so. [16], And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [17], And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth, [18], And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [19,] And THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FOURTH DAY *GENESIS 1:14-19.

    The sun and the moon was given so that man could understand the times and what constitutes the evening and be morning, a day and the seasons. This proves that everything made before when God's Word quotes an "EVENING AND A MORNING" is in reference to a literal day time wise.

    Your trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not teach.

    Hope this is helpful.
     
    #728 3rdAngel, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    As posted earlier I believe it is impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a "Shadow law" *HEBREWS 10:1-12 (type). Why? Because there was no law and no sin when the SABBATH was made for all mankind *MARK 2:27-28. The "shadow laws" (types) only came from the Mosaic laws as part of God's plan of salvation when mankind fell into sin (AFTER SIN) and pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant.

    The Sabbath was given to mankind BEFORE SIN and when there was no need of a plan of salvation and it was a part of a "FINISHED WORK" of creation therefore it is impossible to be a "Shadow law" as there was no sin. I believe your claims are building on sifting sand dear brother and pray you can consider the scriptures shared with you here because if you do not change your views your house will blow over.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.
     
    #729 3rdAngel, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your claim earlier in the previous post was that Gods' 4th commandment was not given until EXODUS 16:28-29. I asked you where in EXODUS 16:28-29 does it say Gods' 4th commandment was given in EXODUS 16 as it says no such thing. EXODUS 16:28-30 says....

    EXODUS 16:28-30 [28], And the LORD said to Moses, HOW LONG REFUSE YOU TO KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS AND MY LAWS? [29], SEE, FOR THAT THE LORD HAS GIVEN YOU THE SABBATH, THEREFORE HE GIVES YOU ON THE SIXTH DAY THE BREAD OF TWO DAYS; ABIDE YOU EVERY MAN IN HIS PLACE, LET NO MAN GO OUT OF HIS PLACE ON THE SEVENTH DAY. [30], SO THE PEOPLE RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY.

    As can be shown above does not support your claims that the Sabbath was only given in EXODUS 16 it supports what I have been sharing with you and that is God's people already knew about Gods' 4th commandment but were not keeping it in Egypt when they were in slavery. This is simply you repeating yourself as this has already been addressed in detail through the scriptures in earlier posts showing that God's people had God's LAWS and kept them before Mt Sinai (EXODUS 20:1-17) because before the written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God and as it is written; Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws (GENESIS 26:5).

    What??? o_O As posted to you earlier it is through faith that Abraham kept God kept God's Law (HEBREWS 11) and why God could say that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws (GENESIS 26:5). I believe the only nonsense is you trying to claim God's Word is saying something that it does not say or teach. I believe you seem to not understand what it means to be "UNDER THE LAW". According to the scriptures we are only "UNDER THE LAW" if we stand guilty before God of breaking the law as it is written;

    ROMANS 3:19 NOW WE KNOW THAT WHAT THINGS SOEVER THE LAW SAYS IT SPEAKS TO THEM THAT ARE UNDER THE LAW; THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

    God's Law (10 Commandments) in the new testament has the same role it always has and that is to give us a knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and to lead us to Chrsit that we might be forgiven by faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

    For these reasons, God's LAW (10 Commandments) are a part of the everlasting Gospel that lead us to the Cross where we can see God's love for all mankind where we can receive God's forgiveness through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9; JOHN 3:16-21.

    If there is no law, there is no knowledge of sin. If there is no knowledge of sin, there is no need of a Saviour to save is from sin and if there is no saviour from sin there is no salvation because we are still in our sin. Then the scripture is fulfilled "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" ROMANS 2:12.

    It seems to me that some here are twisting the scriptures to their own destruction, trying to teach another gospel without God's law which is not the gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ.

    Hope this helps
     
    #730 3rdAngel, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not me my friend but God's Word. These are not my words but God's Word that you deny.

    GENESIS 26:5 Because that ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES, AND MY LAWS.

    The Hebrew word used here for LAWS is H8451; tôrâh tôrâh; תּורה תּרה
    From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
    Nonsense. Try reading GENESIS 2:1-3 where God made the seventh day SABBATH and kept it with Adam and Eve who he made the SABBATH for (Mankind) *MARK 2:27

    Burn't offerings according to the scriptures are for an atonement for sin *LEVITICUS 1:4 that is why it is a sweet smelling Savour unto the lord. Did you think that God simply likes the smell of burn't animals?

    Sin is the transgression of God's Law *1 JOHN 3:4 as it is God's LAW (10 commandments) that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 and the only atonement for sin is death. The sin offerings were symbolic pointing to JESUS and Gods' love to mankind dying for our sins. JESUS is the true sin offering for all mankind *JOHN 1:29; JOHN 1:36; JOHN 3:16-21. I believe you do err dear brother not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.

    HEBREWS 10:1-12
    [1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR CONTINUALLY MAKE THE COMERS THEREUNTO PERFECT.
    [2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? BECAUSE THAT THE WORSHIPPERS ONCE PURGED SHOULD HAVE HAD NO MORE CONSCIENCE OF SINS.
    [3], BUT IN THOSE SACRIFICES THERE IS A REMEMBRANCE AGAIN MADE OF SINS EVERY YEAR.
    [4], FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.
    [5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU WOULD NOT, BUT A BODY HAVE YOU PREPARED ME:
    [6], IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
    [7], Then said I, See, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.
    [8], Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, NEITHER HAD PLEASURE THEREIN; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
    [9], Then said he, See, I COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
    [10], BY THE WHICH WILL WE ARE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL.
    [11], And every priest stands daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
    [12], But THIS MAN, AFTER HE HAD OFFERED ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR EVER, SAT DOWN ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD

    The sin offerings of the old covenant are types and shadows pointing to the Cross of JESUS who is the true sin offering that takes away the sins of the world *JOHN 1:29.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.
     
    #731 3rdAngel, Mar 25, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you're prepared to face up to the truth of your logic, 3rdAngel. Once again, you are trying to mix law and grace together.

    When the Holy Spirit comes, should we still be looking to the commandments, the written law, to give us knowledge of sin? The answer is, NO.

    John 16:8. 'And when he is come [the Holy Spirit], he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:'

    The 'better' replaces the 'old'.

    How can the Ten Commandments be a 'part of the everlasting Gospel that lead us to the cross'?! Do you not see that Christ IS the everlasting Gospel. The Ten Commandments were just the schoolmaster that led us to Christ.

    Galatians 3:24.'Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.'

    The schoolmaster is no longer required when school is finished! The schoolmaster is not everlasting. It's time to GO TO WORK IN FAITH.
     
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    For me dear friend I belive that you dear brother dispite all the scriptures provided simply choose to close your eyes and ears to hearing God's Word when it can be a blessing to you. Now you seem to be making strawman arguments again here that no one is talking about. Anyhow I have not time to give you a detailed response through the scriptures at the moment, but will seek to do so a little latter when I have some more time. I am wondering however if I should bother as you do not seem to be reading the posts and the scriptures provided to you that disagree with you and neither do you bother to address the contents of what is provided that show why I believe your understanding of the scriptures are in error.
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    IS GOD'S LAW ABOLISHED OR ESTABLISHED IN THE GOSPEL?

    According to the scriptures I believe sin is defined in the scriptures as “unbelief” *ROMANS 14:23 and breaking anyone of God’s 10 Commandments *1 JOHN 3:4; and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11 and the wages of sin is death but the good news is that we have a Savior that loves us so much that he died the death that we deserve to die to redeem us not only from sins penalty (death) but from sins power to free us to walk in newness of life *ROMANS 6:23; JOHN 8:31-36. ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 6. 1 JOHN 3:6-9.

    God’s salvation promise to those who believe God’s Word is a new heart to love, a new life to live as we are born again to walk in His Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 8:4. We need God’s salvation from the inside out because we do not love as God first loved us *JOHN 5:42 and all we can do without JESUS is sin because this is our nature apart from God *ROMANS 7:1-24; ROMANS 3:9-18; ISAIAH 1:5-6; JEREMIAH 13:23; JOHN 15:5.

    We need to be born again as righteousness is from the inside out. As shown earlier we have a sinful nature..

    MATTHEW 12:34-35 [34], O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

    JEREMIAH 13:23 [23], Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may you also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

    JEREMIAH 17:9-10 [9], The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? [10], I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

    MATTHEW 15:19-20 [19], For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: [20], These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man.

    JOHN 5:42 But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you.

    ...........

    We break God's Commandments [SIN] because we do not LOVE. Yep looks like we have a broken heart that needs fixing as there is no LOVE in us without Jesus.

    MATTHEW 5:20 is interesting because on the OUTSIDE the Scribes and Pharisees as JESUS taught appeared righteous to men. Outwardly blameless in regards to following God's 10 commandments but INWARDLY JESUS says they were full of SIN (breaking God's LAW) *MATTHEW 23:27-28. JESUS says; For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven *MATTHEW 5:20.

    The scripture in ISAIAH 42:21 was posted to show that JESUS came to teach the true meaning of God's LAW and that is it is to be applied to the ISIDE OUT not for OUT SIDE IN appearance to appear rightouess to men but inwardly full of SIN. God reads the HEART and KNOWS we are all sick with SIN *MATTHEW 15:19-20; MATTHEW 12:34-35; JEREMIAH 13:23; JEREMIAH 17:9-10; MATTHEW 15:19-20; JOHN 5:42 and in need of a Savior from SIN. Many do not know the meaning here MATTHEW 9:12-13.

    This is leading to the NEW COVENANT PROMISE of a NEW HEART to LOVE *HEBREWS 8:10-12; JOHN 5:42; 1 JOHN 5:17-19; 1 JOHN 4:16; 1 JOHN 5:3; 1 JOHN 4:8.

    We do not have the LOVE of GOD in us *JOHN 5:42. We need to be BORN OF GOD to LOVE *1 JOHN 4:7 and partake of the NEW COVENANT promise. This is why JESUS teaches in *JOHN 3:3-7 that UNLESS we are made CLEAN from the INSIDE OUT and BORN AGAIN to LOVE we cannot enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. This is what JESUS is talking about in MATTHEW 5:20 when discussing the Scribes and the Pharisees teaching the application of God's LAW from the INSIDE OUT.

    Whosoever is BORN of GOD to LOVE in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:10-12 does not commit SIN *1 JOHN 3:9; ROMANS 13:8-10; JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 3:31; MATTHEW 22:36-40. This is the GOOD NEWS of the Gospels in the NEW COVENANT we have a SAVIOUR to save us from sin (not in sin) but we have to be made new to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 8:1-4.

    1 JOHN 3:3-10 is talking about all those who are BORN AGAIN to LOVE and it is LOVE that fulfills God's LAW in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This results in a people that keep God's LAW (10 commandments) from the INSIDE OUT. *REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; ROMANS 13:8-10; ROMANS 3:31; HEBREWS 8:10-12. Unless we are BORN AGAIN to LOVE we cannot enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7.

    So what the conclusion of the matter

    ECCLESIASTES 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN.

    God’s LAW (10 commandments) are not abolished they are fulfilled and established in the life of a believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and walk in God’s Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:4.

    To be continued……
     
    #734 3rdAngel, Mar 27, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    As shown in the previous post and scriptures we need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT. Indeed LOVE is EXPRESSED through God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) as JESUS says;

    MATTHEW 22:36-40 [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    [37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

    ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. [9], FOR THIS, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
    [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.Indeed brother UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN (Breaking any one of God's 10 commandments).

    1 JOHN 5:17-18 [17] ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN: and there is a sin not to death.
    [18], WE KNOW THAT WHOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

    1 JOHN 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

    and again;

    JAMES 2:10-11 [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

    OBEDIENCE to God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) through faith that works by LOVE is how RIGHTEOUSNESS is expressed.

    PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTOUESNESS.

    ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. [9], FOR THIS, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
    [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

    ROMANS 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

    and is why JESUS says;

    MATTHEW 22:36-40 [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    [37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

    and why JOHN says;

    2 JOHN 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

    and again here;

    1 JOHN 5:2-3 [2], BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS [3], FOR THE IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

    and is why it is written;

    1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [4], HE THAT SAYS I KNOW HIM AND DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

    1 JOHN 3:6 WHOSOEVER ABIDES IN HIM SINS NOT: WHOSOEVER SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM

    1 JOHN 3:9 [9], WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    1 JOHN 5:18 [18] We know that WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

    ROMANS 2:12-13 [12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13], FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

    and why JESUS says;

    JOHN 14:15 [15] IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS

    .............

    Now if LOVE is the very expression of OBEDIENCE to God's LAW *ROMANS 13:8-10 and God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) are the very definition of what RIGHTOUESNESS is *PSALMS 119:172, and to break any one of God's 10 commandments is SIN *JAMES 2:10-11. How can you LOVE GOD and your NEIGHBOR as yourself, if we have no LOVE and break God's Commandments which ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS HANG *MATTHEW 22:36-40?

    Unless we are BORN AGAIN to LOVE from the INSIDE OUT we are only like dead mans bones and all we can do without JESUS is SIN *1 JOHN 3:4.

    When we LOVE GOD and our NEIGHBOUR it is expressed through our actions.

    If we LOVE our neighbour...

    * We will honor our parents,
    * We will not murder
    * We will not commit adultery with our neighbour's spouse
    * We will not steal from them
    * We will not lie to them
    * We will not covet what they own.

    If we LOVE our God...

    * We will not have other Gods
    * We will not make idols and worship them
    * We will not take his name [follow] him in vain
    * We will remember his seventh day Sabbath and keep it holy.

    ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [OF LOVE] says JESUS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS *MATTHEW 22:36-40.

    God’s LAW (10 commandments) is established through the gospel in the life of a believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and walk in God’s Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:4. God's LAW (10 commandments) are never abolished they are the eternal LAW of GOD written on stone and transferred to the fleshly tables of the heart in God's new covenant promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 2 CORINTHIANS 3:3

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. This is God's good news and promise of salvation and a new heart to love God and our fellow man in all those who believe and follow Gods' Word.
     
  16. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I say everyday is a good day to appreciate God's beauty in the World.

     
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, but not everyday according to the scriptures are God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath that we are to set aside as a Holy day of rest as a memorial and celebration of God as the creator of Heaven and earth. There is no scripture in the bible that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are not commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. The same as there is no scripture that says "the lords day" is Sunday. This is simply a man made tradition and teaching the breaks the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in MATTHEW 15:2-9 and is not biblical.
     
  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    We need to take this a point at a time.

    The first thing to say is that walking by the Holy Spirit SUPERSEDES the written law, it does not abolish it. Nowhere did I say the law was abolished. The love of God fulfils the law, it does not make it void.

    The word 'fulfil' means that something is completed perfectly and fully. Once completed perfectly, we are to follow the way of perfection. The law was completed by Christ perfectly, and He did it through the Holy Spirit, the righteous Spirit. The righteousness of Christ in us, the gift of God, becomes our way of truth. This is the Gospel of grace.

    When Paul says that the law is at an end, he means that the written law is no longer our guide. Instead, we have the leading of the Holy Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit lead us in ways that break the SPIRIT of the law? Of course not. It guides us into 'all truth' [John 16:13].

    Then we can ask ourselves how best to understand the SPIRIT of the fourth Commandment.
     
    #738 Redemptionsong, Mar 28, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nice hand waive to a detailed scripture response to love and law. Anyhow it is there for all to read even if you do not wish to. I did spend some time on those posts for you. Anyhow all good.

    The first thing to say is that walking by the Holy Spirit SUPERSEDES the written law, it does not abolish it. Nowhere did I say the law was abolished. The love of God fulfils the law, it does not make it void.[/QUOTE]
    Ok good there are 10 Commandments in God's 10 commandments, why do you not keep God's 4th commandment when the scriptures teach that love fulfills or establsihes God's Law through faith *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:4; GALATIANS 5:16? Where is the scripture in God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? - There is none.
    There is only one standard of righteousness in God's Word and it is the one that gives us the knowledge of Good and Evil; Sin and Righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 1 JOHN 3:4 and according to the scritpures if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God sin *JAMES 2:10-11. The Hebrew word for "righteousness" is H6666 צדקה; tsedâqâh From H6663; rightness (abstractly), subjectively (rectitude), objectively (justice), morally (virtue) or figuratively (prosperity): - justice, moderately, right (-eous) (act, -ly, -ness). It means doing what is right morally. The Greek word is G1343 δικαιοσύνη; dikaiosunē From G1342; equity of character or act; specifically (Christian) justification: - righteousness. Here it means both justification and right doing. So the thoughts expressed here is to be justified to do what is right morally.

    Then we get these scriptures after justification...

    GALATIANS 5:16 WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND YOU WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH (Doing what is right morally)
    ROMANS 8:4 THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT

    Now where the righteousness of the law is fulfilled. It is fulfilled in us in fulfillment of the new covenant promise here..

    HEBREWS 8:10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, said the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THE MINDS AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

    These scriptures complement ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10 and JAMES 2:8-12 (please read them)

    Now the question I want to ask you after seeing that the meaning of righteousness in the Hebrew means "right doing" or in the Greek "being justified for right doing" what is it that we are to do right? Here is the answer here in PSALMS

    PSALMS 119:172 My tongue shall speak of your word for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    God's 10 commandments are the very standard of all right doing or RIGHTEOUSNESS. In order to do right we need to be born again and receive a new heart to love and it is the very well springs of love that fulfills the law in those who believe and follow God's Word. This is God's Work in all those who walk in His Spirit. Now can you see that if we are breaking any of God's laws (10 commandments) we are either not showing love to God or man and not walking in God's Spirit practicing righteoussness?
    Agreed, so do you keep God's 4th Commandment because you love God?
     
    #739 3rdAngel, Mar 28, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Your argument falls down when we look carefully at the scriptures that you quote as evidence.

    If you read Romans 3:31 in context, it will help to clarify the meaning.

    Romans 3:26-31. 'To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    Where is the boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
    Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
    Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
    Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.'

    If you read this passage carefully, you will see that there are two descriptions of the law. There is the law 'of works', and the 'law of faith'. Are the two the same? No, quite clearly they are not, for Paul says, 'Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.' What are the 'deeds of the law', if not the 'works'?

    This now makes it clear that the phrase 'we establish the law' is not a reference to the Ten Commandments, or the law of works, but the law of faith.

    So, what is the difference between the 'law of works' and the 'law of faith'? The simple answer is, The Holy Spirit. Once we live by the law of faith [in the Holy Spirit], we no longer live by the law of works ['without the deeds of the law'].

    Conclusion: Using Romans 3:31 as evidence is a misuse of scripture.

    Let's now look at Romans 8:4.
    'That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'

    In context [Romans 8:1-4] it reads,
    'There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'

    So, 'the righteousness of the law' is clearly the Spirit of Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law. It is His Spirit that enables us to 'walk not after the flesh'.

    Conclusion: Using Romans 8:4 as evidence is a misuse of scripture.

    On to Galatians 5:16-18.
    'This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.'
    'For the flesh lustest against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.'

    Conclusion: All three scriptural references prove that it is the Spirit [the law of faith] that we should be following, not the law of works.

    Are the Ten Commandments the law of works, or the law of faith?

    'For Christ is the end of the law [of works] for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live in them.'

    Conclusion: The Ten Commandments are 'the righteousness which is of the law'. These commandments are TO BE DONE, they are WORKS, not faith! Under grace, we are no longer required to do these works of the law. We are to live by the love of God.
     
    #740 Redemptionsong, Mar 28, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
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