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Featured The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019.

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  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    As for the supposed interaction of Peter, James, and John, with Paul, according to Galatians 2, Peter, James and John were "reputed pillars" and that they "contributed nothing to me". As for Paul's backstabbing of Peter, and calling Peter a hypocrite, well that may well be, but he should have confronted Peter, and not voiced his erg with the Galatians. As for Paul's witness of that event according to John 5:31 & Dt 19:15-19, well, if one witnesses for one self alone, that witness is not true. (John 5:31) As for Yeshua's instruction to his "slaves"/servants the apostles, that was in effect until the wheat is ripe, which would be at the "end of the age" Mt 13:40. Well we are now at the "end of the age", and the admonishment to leave the tares alone is not in affect, for the angels will now pull out the lawless and stumbling blocks (Mt 13:41) As for our quote of "all scripture is by inspiration of God", well that quote was written about the scripture from the writers youth, which would be the OT, and preclude the NT.
     
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense my dear friend I believe your making a lot of untruthful empty claims and posting scripture not relevant to what you are claiming. Paul did not back stab anyone and voiced Peters mistake to him personally *GALATIANS 2:11 according to scripture direction *2 TIMOTHY 5:20. Pauls witness was the Word of God so he was not testifiying of himself but repeating the words of God so His testimony was true as only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29. I believe you are quite mistaken in regards to your intepretation of "all scripture" from 2 TIMOTHY 3:16 as everything in the new testament scriptures comes from the old testament scriptures. All scripture simply means all scripture and we are to live by every word of it *MATTHEW 4:4. I am sorry my dear friend but I do not believe you understand the scriptures or you believe God is not in control of His Word which in my view is unbelief from which you should turn away from.
     
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 4:4 states that "man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". Well the bread of life is the Word of God, which is the law, prophets and testimony of Yeshua. Your position is one that the false prophet Paul speaks for God, and that the Law is "obsolete" (Hebrews 8), as in dead, nailed to a cross You seem to feel free to add leaven to the bread of life, which kind of puts you under the influence of the false prophet. Paul's message of you are saved, and surely shall not die/sleep, if you eat of the leavened bread, matches that of the serpent. As for 2 Timothy, well it was supposedly written by Paul, and while he would like your interpretation which makes him God's prophet, he was referring to the "sacred writings"/scripture he had studied from childhood, which would preclude 2 Timothy 2:15-16.
     
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. I believe no such things. Sorry my friend we will have to agree to disagree. Did you want to share something in relation to the OP?
     
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Paul's message that you have been freed of observing festivals or Sabbath day. (Colossians 2:14-16) by having had the decrees of God "nailed to the cross".

    Keep in mind, that even the "nations"/Gentiles will keep the feast of booths during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16)
     
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    He is pleased to have me debate on RF.
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I don't believe it is. I believe all too often people are following their own preferences and saying it was because they follow the book and there is no guarantee that God wants you to follow the book instead of what He says.
     
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Yet the scriptures teach, "If you love me keep my commandments *JOHN 14:15 and again "Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven *MATTHEW 7:21.
     
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Colossians 2:16 is not talking about God's 4th commandment it is a reference to EZEKIEL 45:17 and the annual sabbaths in feast days and not judging others. They are shadows of things to come. Detailed scripture response starting here linked
     
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    It's odd that you should want to read verse 9 of Hebrews 4 as referring to the weekly sabbath when the entire chapter, and the context as a whole, is not talking about the weekly sabbath but about the rest provided by God in Christ.

    If you look carefully at Hebrews 4 verse 10, it says,' For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.'

    This verse follows directly from verse 9, the verse which you claim contains the reference to the weekly sabbath. So, if verse 10 is talking about the weekly sabbath, as you argue, we can conclude that rest from our own works only takes place once a week, on the weekly sabbath. So for six days of the week YOU MUST BE DOING YOUR OWN WORKS. There is only one day in the week when you find rest in Christ! This is exactly as I thought, and it is not the Gospel of grace as preached by Paul.

    You are falling into the very trap that Paul warned the Hebrew Christians about. He saw that many Hebrew Christians felt a pressure to return to the comfort and certainty of their traditions and laws, but exhorted them to embrace the better way, the way of justification and sanctification, through faith and grace.

    Titus 3:4-7. 'But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.'

    The SDA Church is clearly not under grace; at least, not as taught by Paul.
     
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really my dear friend. I posted you the complete scripture and chapted context of HEBREWS 4:9. I believe you are simply closing your eyes and ignoring what has been shared with you here..

    Where I believe you are confused here is that your ingoring the scripture context of HEBREWS 4:1-9. The reason God's people in the wilderness did not enter into God's rest was because of unbelief in God's Word and sin (breaking God's commandments) as shown in HEBREWS 3:8-19. The gospel was preach to them as well as us but they did not believe it. *HEBREWS 4:2. The context of "REST" in HEBREWS 4:1-5 is God's "REST" and how we enter into God's "REST" (the "seventh day" weekly Sabbath).

    HEBREWS 4:1-11
    [1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    [2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
    [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
    [4], FOR HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE (GENSIS 2:1-3) OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS.
    [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

    NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD enter into that rest which God's WORD defines as the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is GOD'S REST!

    Let's continue...

    6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
    [7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
    [8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
    [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

    NOTE: Hebrews 4, verse 9: “There remains therefore a SABBATH rest to the people of God.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

    [10], For he that is entered into HIS REST (v9 God's SABBATH REST), he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    [11], LET US LABOR THEREFORE TO ENTER INTO THAT REST (God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST), lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (HEBREWS 3).

    .............

    CONCLUSION: HEBREWS 4 is talking about the Gospel rest of BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD; v29 Learn of me; v30 my burden (doing) is light. This agrees with Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. HEBREWS 4:1-11 is in reference to GOD'S REST which God's WORD defines is the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is the CONTEXT shown in HEBREWS 4:1-5. HEBREWS 4 therefore with context added is saying that no one enter God's Sabbath rest if they do not BELIEVE AND FOLLOW God's WORD.

    As proven above it is you ignoring the scripture context not me as shown in HEBREWS 4:1-5.

    Hope this helps.
     
    #711 3rdAngel, Mar 23, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Not that your interpretation is correct, especially as "festivals" are already mentioned, and a "Sabbath day" includes the Sabbath, but one particular annual sabbaths will be kept by the nations/Gentiles when Yeshua returns under penalty of an iron rod (Zechariah 14:16). As for Paul and keeping the Sabbath, well Romans 14:5 kind of puts what one practices in whatever a person's mind comes up with. As for keeping the day of the sun versus the Sabbath, well according to Paul, you should not judge them (Romans 14:13).
     
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Romans 14 says nothing about God's 4th commandment Sabbath or for that matter anything about Sunday now does it? Sabbath versus Sunday was never a contention in the early Church as they all kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath according to the scriptures.

    I believe your reading into the scriptures things that the scriptures do not teach. ROMANS 14 is about eating and not eating (fasting) on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regards. There is no mention of God's 4th commandment Sabbath, Sunday or any of God's 10 commandments in Romans 14 is there? I believe to come up with that interpretation you have to try and read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not teach.

    Tell me my dear friend, what sabbaths is COLOSSIANS 2:16 talking about? It cannot be the weekly Sabbath which is singluar not plural and the scripture and chapter context of Colossians 2 is not God's 10 commandments. You do know that there are many other sabbaths beside God's 4th commandment right?

    1. The Sabbath on the annual day of Atonement that can fall on any day of the week?
    2. The Sabbath on the annual Feast of Trumpets that can fall on any day of the week?
    3. The Sabbath on the Feast of Booths that can fall on any day of the week?
    4. The sabbaths (sabbaton plural) of holy convocations from the annual feast days?
    5. The Sabbath of the land (7 year single cycle)?
    6. The Sabbath of Jubilee - culminating of the 7x7 yearly cycles sabbaths?
    7. Or God's 4th commandment seventh day weekly Sabbath which is one of the 10 commandments that define sin when broken?

    So can you show me and prove to me from the scriptures alone that Colossians 2:16 is talking about God's 4th commandment? What is the scripture and chapter context? - Yep nothing about God's 10 commandments. I believe you may need to study this a bit further dear friend (scripture support here)

    Hope this helps.
     
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    You believe that God's rest is the seventh day of man's week, but this is not what the scriptures tell us. Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 is the prologue to the whole of scripture, and each of God's days should be understood 'as a thousand years'.

    1 Peter 3:8. 'But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.'

    Psalm 90:4. 'For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.'

    So you are building an edifice of false doctrine on a misunderstanding of the scriptures.

    Genesis 2:3. 'And God blessed the seventh day [note - there is no suggestion that it is a day of 24 hours], and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.' [God ceased creating and making; He did not need to rest]

    Genesis 2:3 is not a commandment for men to adhere to a weekly sabbath, but a sanctification of God's seventh day, which is a sabbatical millennium. This sabbatical millennium is seen as a rest from the sin now ruling in the world.

    The commandment to adhere to a weekly sabbath is not instituted until Exodus 16; and we return to it again in Exodus 20, when God makes a covenant of law with the Israelites [and Jews have always understood that this covenant of law was not in existence until Moses]. Hence, the weekly sabbath is a 'type' of the rest that is to be found in Christ. Over six days of a thousand years sin reigns in the world, but in the seventh millennium that sin is abolished when Christ's Kingdom is fully come on Earth.

    If you keep insisting that your rest is found on the seventh day of each week, then it is clear that you are doing your own works for the other six days. You cannot have this both ways. You cannot claim to walk by grace, having faith in God's righteousness, whilst at the same time doing works of your own righteousness!
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Not that your interpretation is correct, especially as "festivals" are already mentioned, and a "Sabbath day" includes the Sabbath, but one particular annual sabbaths will be kept by the nations/Gentiles when Yeshua returns under penalty of an iron rod (Zechariah 14:16). As for Paul and keeping the Sabbath, well Romans 14:5 kind of puts what one practices in whatever a person's mind comes up with. As for keeping the day of the sun versus the Sabbath, well according to Paul, you should not judge them (Romans 14:13).
    New American Standard Bible
    Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

    Apparently your "plural" is not universal, and your "Sabbath days" would include the weekly and yearly Sabbaths, yet the yearly festivals already had been mentioned. And the keeping of the yearly feast of booths will be mandatory for the "nations"/Gentles under the rule of "Lord of Hosts" (Zechariah 14:16). As for Romans 14:5, it is about regarding days according to one's own thoughts, much like they can determine good and evil on their own without the guidance of God. Oh wait, that was the message of the serpent, and he like Paul basically said you surely shall not die/sleep, if you follow that path. Well, Paul and his followers are dead.
     
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  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense the bible says no such thing. Mine reads...in the HEBREW language in GENESIS 1-2 that a day H3177 יום; yôm means; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next, or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (.. . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

    There is not one hint in GENESIS 1 and GENESIS 2 that says any of these scriptures are symbolic to 1000 years. Note also for each individual day within the creation week of GENESIS 1 it says "AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING" (A literal day) was the "FIRST DAY" *GENESIS 1:5; "SECOND DAY" *GENESIS 1:8; "THIRD DAY" *GENESIS 1:13; "FOUTH DAY" GENESIS 1:19; "FIFTH DAY" *GENESIS 1:23; "SIXTH DAY" *GENESIS 1:31.

    [5], And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FIRST DAY.
    [8], And God called the firmament Heaven. And the AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE SECOND DAY.
    [13], And the AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE THIRD DAY.
    [19], And the AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FOURTH DAY.
    [23], And the AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FIFTH DAY
    [31], And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE SIXTH DAY.


    I am sorry my friend as can be shown through the scriptures and the Hebrew word meaning of yom according to the scriptures GENESIS 1 and 2 are literal days so I believe it is you who is building an edifice of false doctrine based on a misunderstanding of the scriptures.

    Nonsense. Please show me a commadment in EXODUS 16 to keep the Sabbath? There is none. God's people already had knowledge of the Sabbath before EXODUS 16 they simply kept it. This is simply you repeating yourself as this has already been addressed in detail through the scriptures showing that God's people had God's LAWS and kept them before Mt Sinai (EXODUS 20:1-17) because before the written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God and as it is written; Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws (GENESIS 26:5).

    Furthermore, it is impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a "Shadow law" *HEBREWS 10:1-12 (type). Why? Because there was no law and no sin when the SABBATH was made for all mankind *MARK 2:27-28. The "shadow laws" (types) only came from the Mosaic laws as part of God's plan of salvation when mankind fell into sin and pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant. The Sabbath was given to makkind BEFORE SIN and when there was no need of a plan of salvation and it was a part of a "FINISHED WORK" of creation therefore it is impossible to be a "Shadow law" as there was no sin. I believe your claims are building on sifting sand dear brother and pray you can consider the scriptures shared with you here because if you do not change your views your house will blow over.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.
     
    #716 3rdAngel, Mar 24, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    That is a falty translation your using as the plural application in the Greek is indeed universal. Go and look at the Greek as the use of the Greek word Sabbaton σάββατον in COLOSSIANS 2:16 is genetive neuter plural (GNP) which means plural application (N-GNP linked) of Sabbaton to Sabbaths or Sabbath days. That is why many translations translate this text as Sabbaths which is the correct Greek translation and application of Sabbaton in Colossians 2:16 ....

    PARRALEL TRANSLATIONS OF COLOSSIANS 2:16

    New Living Translation
    So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.

    Berean Literal Bible
    Therefore let no one judge you in regard to food, or in regard to drink, or in regard to a feast, or a New Moon, or Sabbaths,

    New King James Version
    So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

    King James Bible
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

    International Standard Version
    Therefore, let no one judge you in matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a New Moon, or Sabbath days.

    NET Bible
    Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days--

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    Let no man disturb you about food or about drink or in the distinctions of feasts and beginnings of months and Sabbaths,

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days.

    King James 2000 Bible
    Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

    American King James Version
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths,

    Darby Bible Translation
    Let none therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in matter of feast, or new moon, or sabbaths,

    Webster's Bible Translation
    Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy-day, or or the new-moon, or of the sabbaths:

    Young's Literal Translation
    Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,

    .............

    This is also comfirmed in the scriptures that PAUL is quoting from in the Old testament Hebrew from EZEKIEL 45:17 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give BURNT OFFERINGS, and MEAT OFFERINGS, and DRINK OFFERINGS, in the FEASTS, and in the NEW MOONS, and in the SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

    ..............

    As posted earlier in regards to ROMANS 14. You cannot show me that this is in reference to God's seventh day Sabbath can you. That is because it is not. Romans 14 says nothing about God's 4th commandment Sabbath or for that matter anything about Sunday now does it? Sabbath versus Sunday was never a contention in the early Church as they all kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath according to the scriptures. I believe your reading into the scriptures things that the scriptures do not teach.

    ROMANS 14 is about eating and not eating (fasting) on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regards. There is no mention of God's 4th commandment Sabbath, Sunday or any of God's 10 commandments in Romans 14 is there? I believe to come up with that interpretation you have to try and read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not teach.

    Hope this helps.
     
    #717 3rdAngel, Mar 24, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    As I had previously said, even using your "Sabbath days", that would include the weekly Sabbath. As for you saying Romans 14 is about not judging people about the foods they eat, well I guess swine and mice can be found on your dinner table, and no one should consider that a problem. As for yearly Sabbath feast, all nations/Gentiles will keep the Sabbath feast of booths (Zechariah 14:16) or suffer the consequences.

    Isaiah 66:17 "Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things-they will meet their end together with the one they follow," declares the LORD.
     
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    No. Your reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say. The scripture does not say "ALL SABBATHS" does it? It says Sabbaths plural and the context is to the sabbaths in the annual feast days. I am sorry but your accusations about unclean foods to me are nonsense and not true. I do not eat unclean foods including swine and rats. As for the God's 4th commandment weekly Sabbath of God's 10 commandments it will be continued to be kept in the new heavens and new earth for all those who make it there by believing and following God's Word. *ISAIAH 66:22
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    So, why do you not eat swine? Under Paul's teachings are they not clean (Romans 14:20). Aren't you under Paul's, or the writer of Hebrews, described "new covenant"? Doesn't Paul teach no one should judge you for doing so, and the writer of Hebrew says you are under a "new covenant". I think I should start a thread about what that would make the old covenant, which Paul' church teaches is "obsolete". Before I start the new thread, maybe you can tell me what the new covenant is, and what is clean and what is not clean.

    Romans 14:20 "All things indeed are clean"
     
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