1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Little Horn of Revelation

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by OtherSheep, May 10, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    9,536
    Ratings:
    +2,902
    Religion:
    Christian
    Joshua is a fictional national hero. He didn't have any big armies. He didn't destroy any Canaanite cities.. Jericho was felled by earthquake which are common in the region.During the period of the Exodus Jericho had already been abandoned.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    9,536
    Ratings:
    +2,902
    Religion:
    Christian
    Schools for prophets were very popular in ancient Palestine from the time of Samuel. We have them currently in Atlanta, Georgia. :)
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    9,536
    Ratings:
    +2,902
    Religion:
    Christian
    Revelation is a letter to the 7 churches. Its Apocalyptic literature which was very popular for about 300 years. Its also originally Jewish. Its also pregnant with hyperbolic symbolism.

    Its about encouraging the New Christians and Jews in diaspora and about the vengeance against the apostate Jews.

    Its a hard slog, but easier if you study first century history.
     
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    25,004
    Ratings:
    +7,688
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian
    Lets say he's educational. Jesus is named after him, so his story is relevant for Revelation and all of its sevens. Here's Joshua and instead of attacking the city of Jericho he just marches around it. The walls fall in. There's no fighting. His story teaches a lesson of patience, and it represents the concept of the number seven as I understand it. Both Jesus and Joshua's name contains the meaning of salvation in it (explained both in gospels and previously in Numbers 13) and can be read very roughly as salvation through peace, but I am not translating more like emphasizing the peaceful aspect of it.
     
  5. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    8,587
    Ratings:
    +1,002
    Religion:
    Yes
    Says the preterist dogma! Sooda, truly if you have religious aspirations, you must free yourself from dogmatic belief. As it stands, anything explained to you that does not fit with preterism is rejected out of hand. This is no different to dogmatic believers of any tradition, sect, cult, denomination, or and subset of these.

    Beyond that, I ask you the same question I do the atheists, if you don't believe in the prophecy, why bother commenting on a thread on this topic. If you want to register your reason for not believing, fine, but why not do it just once, like "I am a preterist/athiest/etc., and don't believe in it".
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    8,587
    Ratings:
    +1,002
    Religion:
    Yes
    That is called judgement friend, people are not equal in understanding what and who they are in the greater scheme of things, and thus from time to time in evolution, the slower ones need a different environment than the more evolved that better suits their opportunity to learn...a part of planetary karma. Even pastoralists do it from time to time, it's called culling.

    The Cosmos is ordered, everyone is an expression of it, but they are not equal expressions. I suggest that it is wise to try and realize to the fullest, the unfoldment of the inherent potential within, but everyone has the free will to stay in their present unenlightened state.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    9,536
    Ratings:
    +2,902
    Religion:
    Christian
    LOL.. You don't have to be stupid to be a Christian.
     
  8. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    19,298
    Ratings:
    +7,519
    Religion:
    I am an advaitist Hindu and a strong atheist. Hinduism is a pagan religion.
    The question still is 'why'? It is bad engineering which necessitated the flood. After all, he is supposed to have the freedom to create humans in whatever way he wanted.
     
    #48 Aupmanyav, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  9. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    8,587
    Ratings:
    +1,002
    Religion:
    Yes
    The wise can and do learn from the stupid, but the stupid rarely learn from the wise.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    8,587
    Ratings:
    +1,002
    Religion:
    Yes
    Creation refers to everything that is going on in the Cosmos, it never ceases. Forms going out of existence and new one coming in, whether they be stars or humans. Immortality exists in the spiritual context, not the material. If you identify with your body as to what and who you are, alas you do not yet understand and will lament its passing.
     
  11. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    19,298
    Ratings:
    +7,519
    Religion:
    I am an advaitist Hindu and a strong atheist. Hinduism is a pagan religion.
    You need to understand as to from where this fascination for seven has come about. This is a relic of IE-Aryan people from before the ice-age when they lived in the Arctic Circle. They had month-long dawn and dusk, a two-month long night, and seven months of continuous sunshine. The sun faltered in the eighth month. The IE considered the human race to be formed from the eighth sun. The Jews picked up the idea from the Zoroastrians when they were in exile in Iraq/Iran.

    "saptabhiḥ putrairaditirupa praita pūrvyaṃ yugam l prajāyai mṛityave tvat punarmārtāṇḍamābharat ll"
    (So with her Seven Sons Aditi went forth to meet the earlier age; She brought Martanda forward to spring to life and die again.)
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10072.htm

    "Naturally enough we must, therefore, interpret it (X, 72, 9) in the same way where it occurs again in the same hymn (X, 72, 2), viz. in the verse describing the legend of Aditi’s seven sons. The sun having seven rays, or seven horses, also implies the same idea differently expressed. The seven months of sunshine, with their different temperatures, are represented by seven suns producing these different results by being differently located, or as having different kinds of rays, or as having different chariots, or horses, or different wheels to the same chariot. It is one and the same idea in different forms, or as the RigVeda puts it, “one horse with seven names” (I.164.2).

    - We begin with the sun. He is described as seven-horsed (saptâshva) in V, 45, 9, and his chariot is described as seven wheeled, or yoked with seven horses, or one seven-named horse in I, 164, 3. The seven bay steeds (haritah) are also mentioned as drawing the carriage of the sun in I, 50, 8.
    - Indra is called sapta-rashmi in II, 12, 12, and his chariot, is also said to be seven-rayed in VI, 44, 24.
    - Agni is described as sapta-rashmi or seven-rayed in I, 146, 1, and his rays are expressly said to be seven in II, 5, 2. His horses are similarly described as seven-tongued in III, 6, 2.
    - Seven dhîtis, prayers or devotions of sacrificial priests, are mentioned in IX, 8, 4.
    - Foods are said to be seven in III, 4, 7.
    - The chariot of Soma and Pûshan is described as five-rayed and seven-wheeled in II, 40, 3.
    - Seven vipras (III, 7, 7), or seven sacrificers (hotârah), are mentioned in several places (III, 10, 4; IV, 2, 15; X, 63, 7).
    - Bṛihaspati, the first-born sacrificer, is described as seven-mouthed or saptâsya in IV, 50, 4, and the same verse occurs in the Atharva Veda (XX, 88, 4).
    - Seven divisions of the earth are mentioned in I, 22, 16.
    - The cows’ stable which the Ashvins opened is said to be saptâsya or seven-mouthed in X, 40, 8."
    (Quotes from RigVeda as mentioned in B.G.Tilak's book, "Arctic Home in the Vedas")
     
  12. ben d

    ben d Being

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    8,587
    Ratings:
    +1,002
    Religion:
    Yes
    What would also come into play are the seven colors of the rainbow which would have been noted by humans since the dawn of civilization, and also the seven electron shells...oh wait!
     
  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    25,004
    Ratings:
    +7,688
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian
    I appreciate your info!

    The story of Joshua predates the story of Jesus by many centuries. Jesus is founded upon that character, Joshua. He is named after him. In the story of Joshua which by far predates the story of Jesus the number seven is not about the human race being formed from the eighth sun but has a different theme. The symbol is not the same symbol anymore. For some reason the old theme is rejected in the Joshua story.

    While the number 7 is a popular symbol in many cultures it, like most things in the Bible books, is appropriated and re-purposed with different themes. Whatever symbol comes from the Zoroastrians will be tweaked and reworked into a different system with a different use for the symbol. That is true for the Garden of Eden, for Noah and his ark, for the tower of Babel, for any Egyptian symbols, too.

    The story of Joshua may not be as old as the Vedas. It is part of a story of a culture that diverges from other cultures and rewrites things. That culture has a calendar which is loosely based on sevens, and rather than having an accurate calendar like the Babylonians and Zoroastrians they choose to have an inaccurate calendar that is started at different times each year. I'm not sure why, but maybe its so they can't predict things like eclipses? Anyways its counter to what everybody else wants. The symbol seven is part of that and probably loses any possible Vedic relationship, and there are probably other symbols borrowed and reworked, too.
     
  14. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    19,298
    Ratings:
    +7,519
    Religion:
    I am an advaitist Hindu and a strong atheist. Hinduism is a pagan religion.

    Attached Files:

  15. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    19,298
    Ratings:
    +7,519
    Religion:
    I am an advaitist Hindu and a strong atheist. Hinduism is a pagan religion.
    Even the flood. Avesta mentions a flood by snow when Yima, the king, was warned by Ahur Mazda. It was not a watery flood as in case of Noah. That may pertain to ice-age.

    Indian religious astronomy was very exact for its time even with different dates of beginning. As in Hindu religion, even in astronomy we have differences of opinion. Nothing new with us. In my community (Kashmiri Brahmins), we have two kinds of calendars, one beginning with New Moon (Amavasyanta) and the other beginning with Full Moon (Purnimanta).
    Hindu calendar - Wikipedia

    Indians were aware of precession of equinox and changed the beginning of the year over 6,000 years by three months. I am of the opinion that Christmas is the uncorrected beginning of the year which for IE people was vernal equinox (Festival of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti). The Zoroastrians, Greeks and Romans did not change the beginning of the year with the precession of equinox and only Indians did it. And we used both the solar and the lunar calendar (Lunar for religious purposes and Solar for civil purposes) and never had any problem. Prediction of eclipses was small fry.

    "The Indian Calendar Reform Committee, appointed in 1952, identified more than thirty well-developed calendars, in use across different parts of India."
    Hindu calendar - Wikipedia
     
    #55 Aupmanyav, Jun 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  16. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    603
    Ratings:
    +112
    Religion:
    Christian
    OtherSheep,
    It is difficult to explain many things in the Bible, because, in order for you to understand, there must be some understanding of what is going on at the time, and how the things mentioned are understood to the contemporaries. I will try, a little.
    This Little Horn is when the 7th head starts to exist, and started out as Britain, back in the 1500s. Britain, the Little horn, fought against France, Spain and the Netherlands, to become the dominant power at that time.
    To understand this you need to read Daniel chapters 7&8, where this Little horn is shone to be the Seventh head of the Great Beast mentioned at Revelation 13.
    After WW2 the United States became the dominant part, or head of the seven headed Wild Beast.
    You must understand Daniel 6&7, and Revelation 13, 17.
    Now, all the information mentioned in Daniel Cs ,2, 6,7. If you understand these correctly, all the information is in complete harmony.
    Remember, the Bible is accurate, so all fits together, so if you are told something that just does not fit with other Scriptures, it cannot be accurate.
     
  17. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2019
    Messages:
    800
    Ratings:
    +453
    Religion:
    agnostic
    This is the umpteenth different interpretation I have heard about these passages. It is just a game people play.
     
  18. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    603
    Ratings:
    +112
    Religion:
    Christian
    Ellen Brown,
    You seem to have a good attitude, but we should not just stay where we are, we should try to learn more about what God’s requirements for us are.
    There are many things that are mentioned in the Scriptures. Many people look at these Scriptures as a fence around us, so we can’t do anything we want to, but that is not correct, these rules given by God are for our protection, and if we obey, we will be protected from outside dangers, not hemmed in to keep us from doing many things that we want to do.
    I’d seems that the most important thing we should try to do, is follow in Jesus’ footsteps, 1Peter 2:21. Jesus was baptized, he helped people whenever he could, and especially he taught all he could about God’s kingdom.
    If we truly have a good heart, God will draw us together with other people who love God, John 6:44, 14:6. Many that are drawn do not stay with God, for one reason or another, Matthew 13:13-15. Our heart is what will make us acceptable to God. Mark 7:6-23. The Bible says that no wicked will understand, Daniel 12:10. Even if they are shone favor, they will not understand righteousness, Isaiah 26:10.
    To be able to understand the Bible, we must be humble as a little child is, Matthew 18:1-7. We need to pray to God for the wisdom to understand His word, James 1:5, and this is especially needed to understand the deeper things of God, and not put our trust in what men say, Jeremiah 17:5, Psalms 146:3,3, 1Corinthians 2:1-16. Agape!!!
     
  19. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,955
    Ratings:
    +1,906

    In my opinion, you have done as most people do in that you can't believe that God requires so little of us. You can't accept simplicity, so you try to second guess God, effectively becoming God, doing as satan did. God knows what things we are capable of and responsible for, and what satan does to befoul the desires of God.

    I won't stoop to berating you. The solution lies in your own heart.

    It is clear to me that satan has greatly interfered with the composing and interpretation of our religious books. To add to that those who read those befouled documents often interpret them more stringently than they were intended to be.
     
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,354
    Ratings:
    +516
    Religion:
    Christian

    So who do you suppose the woman is in Revelation 17:3.

    First of all, the horns in Daniel represents power, Where as in Revelation horns represents kings.

    Revelation 17:12---" And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast"

    So who do you suppose the beast is that ascends out of the bottomless pit is ?

    Revelation 17:8---"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is"

    In verse 8 above there's lays a clue as to who this beast is.
    Notice ( Perdition) there's only one who is sentence to Perdition,
    Perdition means = destruction = destroyed.

    So who is this that God has already sentence to be destroyed ?
    Further more there is no little horn spoken about in the book of Revelation.

    As for Revelation 13:1, if you had notice the verse does say, ( And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.)
    Which clearly shows this is a person
    ( And upon his horns ten crowns)

    The question is, Who do you suppose those
    Seven heads represents, that shall come with the beast?
    Revelation 17:10-12
    10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast"
     
    #60 Faithofchristian, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
Loading...