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Featured The Little Horn of Revelation

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by OtherSheep, May 10, 2019.

  1. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    The beast is not a person because of the text in red.
    The heads and horns and crowns are in blue.

    13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
    17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

    The woman is sitting upon all of the nations of the world. The beast is international.

    12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    Daniel 7:8 I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out...

    The Book of Revelation is not written in order, as Daniel plainly shows. The horns represent power, and are sovereign because of their crowns. When the three horns are rooted out, their power and sovereignty is gone. The little horn is a power, but the three who sponsored her are not powerful or even sovereign.

    ________________________
    Here's the debatable questions: Who are the three uprooted horns? Who's the little horn?
    ___________________________________________________
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    #1 OtherSheep, May 10, 2019
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I notice the woman sits upon the nations and also that the wonder appears in heaven. The nations are the beast, yes I agree and have some associated references to expand on it: Psalm 2 and Isaiah 40. Both of these mention briefly the seemingly endless struggle of the nations against the hope of Israel, which is the realization of peace I presume or 'Shalom'. Nations always oppose peace, but they always argue that they are themselves necessary to keep the peace. "You need us to protect you." Thus they are a solution to war that keeps breaking down. The Lord's anointed don't belong to a particular nation and travel about. They keep the laws, but roam like Abraham. To them a country is merely a tent, not something permanent. The Psalmist asks why the nations plot against them. Isaiah says that the nations are grass what withers. Revelation says they are the beast. Daniel says they are a statue made of different materials and which can only be destroyed by a mountain made without hands. Yes, that is the beast which according to Revelation will only be vanquished through: the blood of the lamb, the word of the saint's testimony and not loving their own lives even to the point of death. (Revelation 12:11)
     
  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    You say you are of "Kingdom Gospel". Does that mean you are JW? If so, there is no point in my becoming involved because I am not familiar with JW foibles.
     
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  4. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    Gospel of the Kingdom = Kingdom Gospel. I guess it's not obvious, so, thank you: I fixed it.

    M24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    J17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    M28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world.
    ________________________
    R22:10 And He saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    ____________
    The reasons for prophecy are to correct the path of people who have ears.
     
    #4 OtherSheep, May 11, 2019
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  5. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    Being ground to powder happens. Those who fall on the stone will be the broken hearted teachable. I am myself, still of two natures. One wants to right what is wrong and lead the youth into battle. The other generally doesn't watch the news anymore.
     
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    A lot of people feel conscientious objection is the only way to go on this or even pacifism. It may be that its only pacifists who ever make any difference in the grand scheme. Most people try to make a difference though, and I recall Jesus tells the soldiers that they can do good by not extorting taxes etc. I leave room for interpretation for each person doing what they feel they can, just like letting people give what they feel motivated to give.
     
  7. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I am not acquainted with JW culture buzz words, so since you did not answer my question directly, I must assume that you are JW.
     
  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is the end time world government. The fact that it is now red (where as before it was not; but instead before was leopard spotted) and the fact that it ascends out of the bottomless pit; points to an unholy rebirth/resurrection. This final beast will be reborn as a demonic world order that is not just human; but from abbadon.

    The king of the pit also ascends out of the pit and he it is who I believe will be the "little horn" the king and despot of the world; probable son of satan and his name Apollyon.
     
  9. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom: what Jesus taught.
     
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  10. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Why not a simple, direct answer? Is that too much?
     
  11. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    There were 10 horns. A little horn rose up amongst them and rooted out three of the first, leaving a total of 7... and the little horn is the 8th and is of the 7. . . . What does OF THE SEVEN mean? Musri, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, have fallen, one is (Rome), and one will come as an 8th and is of the 7. Composite. The 3 horns that are rooted out are not of the 7... the 3 came later, and are almost certainly the Celtic Nations... they're the bands of Gomer, who will hate the woman for destroying their sovereignty, most likely.

    As for Apollyon... that seems a bit more tricky than I thought yesterday.
    In the next two verses, destroyer is two different words. . . . Why?

    9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.
    11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Is Apollyon the destroyer of the Earth? Is he a Phoenician merchant riding the seas of Poseidon? Is Apollyon even the lord of the air? If anything, Apollo is the helper of Troy, and claims the land of the setting sun along with Hades. And Jesus holds the keys to hell and death, in the Revelation's opening chapters.

    It's not as easy as we are used to think, is it? Greek Mythology says the three split up creation into air, water, and the one portion of land... Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades, respectively. In the War of Titans and Troy, both Zeus and Poseidon stood against Apollo. The Cymry bring their father from Constantinople (which also has 7 hills, BTW) and Thrace... across the bay from Troy. Davies, in 'Celtic Researches', does even more.

    Never Stop Learning
     
  12. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    What does Jesus tell us He taught?
    Isn't the Kingdom Gospel written large all over His writings?
    The Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, this IS the Kingdom Gospel.
    In some places, He even calls it "This Gospel of the Kingdom".


    Or maybe you need it in churchyisms? (shrug) I'm not the one to help you with those.
     
  13. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    If I stayed focused on the End Time, in the present day, I would lose it and blow my brains out. For me the best I can do is to focus on being pleasing to God, and doing what he has already told me. I trust him to keep loving me as he always has.
     
  14. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I just don't need this sort of talk from you or anyone. Bugger off.

    Ignore ON.
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The woman is Israel and the Beast is the Emperor of Rome. Look at a map of the Roman Empire in the first century.
     
  16. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    Jezebel becomes Babylon, within the pages of the Book of Revelation.

    At the time of Revelation's writing, one is = Rome.

    Rev.17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    Which power includes Musri, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome today? not 2000 years ago. (secretly... Trust No One)
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The seven kings, five of which had fallen, followed the count from Julius Caesar, the first - then, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, the five which had fallen - and Nero, the sixth.
     
  18. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    IMHO, you have to take into consideration the statue of Daniel's.

    In fact, these Revelation Kingdoms represented by their kings have to do with Israel and her bondage. In terms of bondage, there was Musri, Solomon, Assyria, Babylon, Media... these 5 had fallen. The 6th is the Persian Pharisees, since (on pain of excommunication) they persuaded the Jews to scream for the death of Jesus (Rome didn't want it). The 7th is Rome when she responded to the Pharisiacal rebellion and levelled the Temple. The term "of the seven" could mean of all seven or one of the seven.

    Greece is a puzzler, as regards Daniel. The coming of the Greeks happened at the Trojan War, where the Greeks are Achaeans and Spartan Dorians. The Pelasgian people generally lived in the Peloponnese, part of Thrace and Thessally, the Aegean islands, Crete and Cyprus, and the Ionian West and South of Anatolia (as well as Italy and Portugal/Spain).

    But who were the Greeks? Because they certainly weren't Ionian Pelasgians. The "crest-shaking Dorians" are the iron-age Philistines; the "divine Pelasgians" are Javan.

    Amorites had the south and eastern mountains of Palestine, and they spoke Semitic. Amorites had Semite names at Hurrian Nuzi. Amorites in Mari had a tribe called beni-jamina. Ebla is Sumerian in nature, and speaks of Palestine towns known to the Bible. The farthest reach of the Eblait Empire includes a place called Ursa'um, on the west bank of the Euphrates, which the Hittites conquered. The Hurrians were Jebusites that built Jerusalem and had the priest-king Melchesidek, until David conquered them (1174 BC ?). The Hatti and Sumerians are almost indistinguishable (as are the Assyrians and Persians) on the monuments. The neo-Hittites seem to have spoken Greek, if memory serves. Many of the Hittite monuments show people with that Grecian high bridged nose. And it is said that the Syrians, when they used Greek, used the Dorian.

    My feeling is that these Greeks are Persians... which is why I've made a point of separating Media from Persia. (Media is Japhethite; but Persia is Semitic Elam, to all intents and purposes.)

    People who don't want us to figure any of this out, are those who stopped classical education, and say (almost) all men are the same. Clearly, God wants us to know, or He would never have bothered His sheep with Prophecy.
     
    #18 OtherSheep, Jun 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    In the summer of 332 B.C.E., Palestine was conquered by Alexander the Great.

    The land and people of Israel were now part of the Hellenistic world. Alexander passed through Palestine first on his way to Gaza during his campaign to subjugate the Phoenician coast and then on his way from Egypt to Babylonia. He may have spent some time in Palestine dealing with a revolt in Samaria, and it is possible that he met then with Jewish leaders.

    You have lost me.. By the time of Jesus there were ten Greek cities in Palestine called the Decapolis.

    Alexander ruled from 336-323 BC He conquered the Persians who had earlier conquered Palestine and thus Alexander became "lord" of the Jews. Alexander's conquest of Palestine was not a violent event, however; it simply came to his hands with the rest of the Persian empire.

    B414 -- The History of the Levant from Alexander the Great ...
    www.theology.edu/b414.htm
     
  20. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

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    Alexander was a Macedonian. The Doric Spartans came from Macedonia. Conquered doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. Some say he only passed through Palestine on his way to Egypt. Some say he went out of his way to stop off at Jerusalem and bow to the temple. Some say that the Greeks say nothing about Alexander and Jerusalem. Some say that Alexander was pretty much like Rome, in that he let them keep their laws and added Macedonian overlords to the mix... taking taxes which were then called tribute. (shrug) Not much of a bondage.

    I've heard about the Decapolis, but the Greeks isn't a history I care to investigate. People play fast and loose with ancient history, confusing Pelasgian Javan with its (supposedly Indo-Iranian) Greek supplanters.

    On the other hand, if Ridgeway is right (in 'The Early Age of Greece'), the Achaean Greeks came from Halstadt, had iron weapons, and made Celtic jewelry. IMO, that pretty much makes them relatives to the Cymry, unless they copied what they found. But Davies' theory (in 'Celtic Researches') is that Riphath is Slavic, Ashkenaz is Cymry, and Togarmah is the Germans... which makes Riphath the Greeks, if you go by who owned Halstadt land. The Ligurians were the original Latins, who moved the Iberians east and had Turdetani and Turduli, and Celtica and Celto-Iberia. And Latin is the language we find on the monuments in Britain. Even the Belgae kings had Latin names. But the Druids used the Greek letters, and so did Gaul.

    It gets even stranger, when you read that the Cymry match the description of the Pelasgians. And that the Pelasgians had (Zeus and) the Oak Trees, just as the Druids did (Cook, 'Zeus, Jupiter and the Oak')... the difference being that the Druids had Apollo... as did Troy. National Gods matter, because Gods tended to be National in those days. People who don't see a connection between Troy and Britain, haven't gone beyond Geoffrey of Monmouth's largely fictionalized history... which in my mind means fiction added to distort/disguise that which was already a folk memory.

    THIS is the tip of the iceberg, as to why I question the identity of the Greeks... I think there's a big difference between the Achaeans and the Dorians; speaking Greek doesn't mean genetic Greeks.
     
    #20 OtherSheep, Jun 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
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