The Law and the Gospel

[Shermana]

I told you twice already, I DID read the links, why don't you believe me? I don't believe the material there is as copyrighted as you think, perhaps I should post it later for you. If you think I"m violating the TOS because its copyrighted, feel free to report it.

 

[Pegg]

But if Jesus's teachings involve obeying every "iota" of the Mosaic Law, then they weren't already obeying the Father's laws.

Jesus never said that you must obey the mosaic law... he said you must obey God.

If God chose to present mankind with a new set of laws, would you refuse and stick to the mosaic law or would you accept?

So if only those 4 specific requirements need to be upheld, does that mean defrauding is now allowed? Does that mean sacrificing your children in a fire to Molech is allowed? Not quite the same as eating food sacrificed to him. Does this mean Christians can eat human meat that died from natural causes?

Regardless, there's good reason why many scholars doubt the authenticity of Acts 15.

Is it an act of love to defraud someone? Is it loving to sacrifice your children?

You think that the laws are besides love, yet Jesus showed that Love is superior to laws because the 'kingly law of love' is the one law that overides all other laws.

 

[Sleeppy]

Thanks, I've read the Gospels multiple times. His disciples ask him what he meant by the "Parable" of the things going in your mouth.

If nothing going in your mouth defiles you, take a cat litter box and scarf it like Garfield on Lasagna if that's what you truly believe.

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said to him -- 'It hath been said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.'

Where does Yashua speak of this "True circumcision" exactly?

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Did you read what I said about what the word "Fulfilled" means and how its used in Galatians 6:2?

I read it. I know what fulfilled means. Therefore, you can read what i'm saying, without thinking i'm mistaken in a definition.

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Hebrews 8:5-8 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

The story of the woman caught in adultery is known as the Pericope Adulterae and is nearly unanimously considered as a later interpolation that doesn't appear in any early manuscript, and even the early Church Fathers doubted its authenticity. You should see an asterisk at John 7:53 in any remotely honest copy.

Was there anything else you would like to omit from the gospels?

 

[Sleeppy]

Can you give any examples? It's a simple question. I want to know your reasoning for believing the way you do. I want to know what evidence you have to back up your claims.

You presented one for me. Did the Gentiles move under the Mosaic law?

 

[Pegg]

Shermana, i think the great difference between Judaism and Christianity are seen in law. In Judaism, the mosaic law is central to the observance of Judaism, whereas love is central to the observance of christianity.

The 'kingly law' is what christians are to observe...James 2:8 If, now, YOU practice carrying out the kingly law according to the scripture: “You must love your neighbor as yourself,”...

Romans 13: 8 Do not YOU people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled [the] law. 9 For the [law code], “You must not commit adultery, You must not murder, You must not steal, You must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.

God is calling all mankind to 'love' because if mankind truly loved one another and loved God, they would be perfect because love is perfect and we know this because God is love. And this is why Christians do not have to observe the mosiac law... love is greater then the mosiac law.

 

[Sleeppy]

uh, W. T. F. sorry , but did you read that ? Or am I miss reading it?

You're likely misunderstanding what I said. I emphasized a distinction between sinners and repenters.

If you read my conversations, you might get a better understanding.

 

[riley2112]

You're likely misunderstanding what I said. I emphasized a distinction between sinners and repenters.

If you read my conversations, you might get a better understanding.

Sorry you saw that , I thought that I had deleted it before anyone saw it. After I reread it , I thought it sounded rude and disrespectful, that is not my way, Sorry you had to see it .

 

[Sleeppy]

Sorry you saw that , I thought that I had deleted it before anyone saw it. After I reread it , I thought it sounded rude and disrespectful, that is not my way, Sorry you had to see it .

Yea. But I had a feeling that you aren't a rude and disrespectful person, so I take no offense.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus never said that you must obey the mosaic law... he said you must obey God.

You must be interpreting Matthew 5:17-20 and Luke 16:17 much differently than I am then.

If God chose to present mankind with a new set of laws, would you refuse and stick to the mosaic law or would you accept?

If I knew for a fact beyond dispute that G-d was doing away with some Laws and giving us new ones, of course I'd accept. Except that's not the case here. Jesus was specifically reacting against the Pharisaic and Sadduccee additions and subtractions to the Old Law. Jesus was presenting clarifications for the Original Law that should have always been there.

Is it an act of love to defraud someone? Is it loving to sacrifice your children?

Is it an act of love to obey His will that you honor His sabbath, that he repeatedly stresses is of vital importance?

You think that the laws are besides love, yet Jesus showed that Love is superior to laws because the 'kingly law of love' is the one law that overides all other laws.

Where did I say that? What exactly is this "Kingly law of love"? What does it mean exactly? Where did Jesus say it and what was his intent? I see you quoted James 2:8. But you are ignoring the rest of James in the process, where he emphasizes obeying the Law. There is much misinterpretation of the "If you break one Law, you break them all", the word is "Panton", which mean s "The whole thing". Similarly, if I steal a candy bar, I am just as much a criminal as an ax murderer, even if our sentences are different. Likewise, one who commits adultery has committed a crime that is equal in severity to murder. James was very much pro obedience to the Law. So were the Ebionites and Nazarenes and so was Peter. Peter never got the Memo in all of Yashua's teachings or something?

 

[Shermana]

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said to him -- 'It hath been said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.'

That has nothing to do with tempting. I am simply showing how you (and many many others) vastly misunderstood what Jesus meant, because this would mean you can eat cat feces by this logic. It can also mean that you can eat human flesh. Besides, like I said, the Disciples ask him why he was saying this "parable", which means there was more to it than just the face value.

Quote:
Where does Yashua speak of this "True circumcision" exactly?
Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

You must not understand the difference between Yashua's sayings and Paul's. That speaks volumes.

Quote:
Did you read what I said about what the word "Fulfilled" means and how its used in Galatians 6:2?
I read it. I know what fulfilled means. Therefore, you can read what i'm saying, without thinking i'm mistaken in a definition.

Apparently you do NOT know what fulfilled means even if you say you do, because fulfilled merely means to "obey" in this case. Like "I fulfilled my obligations for the day", or "I fulfilled my workload for the day".

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

The Law of Christ does not replace the Law of Moses, that is where you are mistaken..among many other places.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Same thing. And this also is a good verse for using against the authenticity of Paul as an apostle altogether.

Hebrews 8:5-8 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

The New Covenant is thoroughly explained in Jeremiah as having the Law (same Law) already written upon the hearts of the believers. It's amazing how often I have this argument.

Was there anything else you would like to omit from the gospels?

What's there to omit? It was already omitted in the earliest manuscripts. Are you denying that there should be an asterisk at John 7:53? Are you saying you can use any verse you want even if there's scholarly dispute about it? Do you understand the controversy behind the Pericope Adulterae to begin with? Apparently not.

 

[Pegg]

You must be interpreting Matthew 5:17-20 and Luke 16:17 much differently than I am then.

what do you think he is referring to when he says
"sooner will heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place"

He is not speaking of the mosaic laws when he says 'and not all things take place'

he's talking about all the 'prophecies' taking place....they will all take place in due time so this means the 'law' will eventually become fulfilled in all its promises.

If I knew for a fact beyond dispute that G-d was doing away with some Laws and giving us new ones, of course I'd accept. Except that's not the case here. Jesus was specifically reacting against the Pharisaic and Sadduccee additions and subtractions to the Old Law. Jesus was presenting clarifications for the Original Law that should have always been there.

did you not read in the law of the prophet Jeremiah 31:31 “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

God has told us that he would be making a new covenant... not like the mosaic law covenant. It will be different, but that does not mean the laws will be different, listen:
33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”

This is a covenant of the heart. It will be written in the hearts of mankind...it will not laid out as a written document with lists of rules to obey 'like the old covenant' was, rather this covenant will see Gods laws obeyed from the heart. Now tell me, how do you get mankind to obey your laws from the heart? The answer is you take away the requirement to do so and you allow people to choose your laws.
Because God knows that if they really love him, they will observe the greatest commandment...."LOVE YOUR GOD with your whole heart mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself"
These are the two commands on which the entire mosaic laws hang as Jesus said. If a person loves God from the heart, he will obey the laws of God even though he is not required to obey them....just as Abraham, Noah, Abel and all those who lived before the mosaic law was given.

That is the new covenant and that is why the mosaic covenant has been set aside...it is so that those who have a true love of God can worship him from the heart and obey from the heart.

Is it an act of love to obey His will that you honor His sabbath, that he repeatedly stresses is of vital importance?

yes it is and christians were not told to observe the sabbath 'every day' rather then just one day a week. Why? Because the sabbath was a day for worship. So is it proper to only worship God 1 day out of every week...4 days a month? Is that all God is worth???

We owe him our lives, so we should be using every day as a day to worship God, im sure you'd agree.

Where did I say that? What exactly is this "Kingly law of love"? What does it mean exactly? Where did Jesus say it and what was his intent? I see you quoted James 2:8. But you are ignoring the rest of James in the process, where he emphasizes obeying the Law. There is much misinterpretation of the "If you break one Law, you break them all", the word is "Panton", which mean s "The whole thing". Similarly, if I steal a candy bar, I am just as much a criminal as an ax murderer, even if our sentences are different. Likewise, one who commits adultery has committed a crime that is equal in severity to murder. James was very much pro obedience to the Law. So were the Ebionites and Nazarenes and so was Peter. Peter never got the Memo in all of Yashua's teachings or something?

John 13:33 Little children, I am with YOU a little longer. YOU will look for me; and just as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I go YOU cannot come,’ I say also to YOU at present. 34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

John 15:12 This is my commandment, that YOU love one another just as I have loved YOU.


Ephesians 5:2 and go on walking in love, just as the Christ also loved YOU and delivered himself up for YOU as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling odor

1 Thessalonians 4:9 However, with reference to brotherly love, YOU do not need us to be writing YOU, for YOU yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

1 John 3:14 We know we have passed over from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love remains in death

Romans 13:8 Do not YOU people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled [the] law.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

Galatians 6:2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.

1 John 4:20 If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.

 

[Shermana]

"sooner will heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place"

He says Heaven and Earth will collapse before the smallest letter of the Law is void. All things take place means every single event for all time that is possible, until Heaven and Earth collapse.

He is not speaking of the mosaic laws

Yes he is.

when he says 'and not all things take place'

he's talking about all the 'prophecies' taking place....they will all take place in due time so this means the 'law' will eventually become fulfilled in all its promises.

No, he's talking about ALL things taking place, until the very end of time itself.

did you not read in the law of the prophet Jeremiah 31:31 “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

I have read it, quite extensively. What part about the Law being written on their hearts didn't YOU read? When he says "Not like the others', 'he's referring to a Covenant where those who truly enter it will have the Law written on their hearts without being taught, as it says, as you've posted.

God has told us that he would be making a new covenant... not like the mosaic law covenant. It will be different, but that does not mean the laws will be different, listen:

The only thing not like it is that the true Disciples will have the Law in their hearts via the Spirit and won't have to learn it or be taught it.

33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”

"MY law" is the same Law as before. Except now those who truly become the Moshiach's disciples will have the Father's Law in their hearts.

This is a covenant of the heart. It will be written in the hearts of mankind...it will not laid out as a written document with lists of rules to obey 'like the old covenant' was, rather this covenant will see Gods laws obeyed from the heart. Now tell me, how do you get mankind to obey your laws from the heart?

By putting it in them who truly believe, as it says perhaps?

You teach them to observe the greatest commandment...."LOVE YOUR GOD with your whole heart mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself"
These are the two commands on which the entire mosaic laws hang as Jesus said. If a person loves God from the heart, he will obey the laws of God even though he is not required to obey them....just as Abraham, Noah, Abel and all those who lived before the mosaic law was given.

And Noah knew which animals were clean, Abraham knew who and how to make sacrifices to. Your point is moot.

That is the new covenant and that is why the mosaic covenant has been set aside...it is so that those who have a true love of God can worship him from the heart and obey from the heart.

Those who say it's been put aside are the same Lawless that Jesus warned about and says will be rejected "Begone, ye doers of lawlessness". What sort of "Lawlessness" do you think he meant? Only not loving their neighbors? Haven't we agreed that the whole of the Law is about loving the Lord and neighbor but nonetheless involves doing what is said?

yes it is and christians were not told to observe the sabbath 'every day' rather then just one day a week. Why? Because the sabbath was a day for worship. So is it proper to only worship God 1 day out of every week...4 days a month? Is that all God is worth???

This indisputably demonstrates that you don't understand what the Sabbath is about. We worship every day. Sabbath is not a day set aside for worship, it's a day set aside for REST. You CAN worship on Sabbath, it's not required, what's required is to REST. And do no work. You show your love for the Lord by resting as he commands. That's the point. Many people have this misunderstanding of what Sabbath actually means. The presumptiousness of telling a Jew what Sabbath is about is staggering.

We owe him our lives, so we should be using every day as a day to worship God, im sure you'd agree.

I agree, but I don't agree that Sabbath is only about worship or that we only set aside one day for worship. Once again, it's a day of REST.

John 13:33 Little children, I am with YOU a little longer. YOU will look for me; and just as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I go YOU cannot come,’ I say also to YOU at present. 34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

So by this logic and understanding of this verse, anyone who loves anyone (however you define "Agape") is thus identified as his Disciple?

John 15:12 This is my commandment, that YOU love one another just as I have loved YOU.

And how did Jesus love them exactly? In detail please.

Ephesians 5:2 and go on walking in love, just as the Christ also loved YOU and delivered himself up for YOU as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling odor

1 Thessalonians 4:9 However, with reference to brotherly love, YOU do not need us to be writing YOU, for YOU yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

1 John 3:14 We know we have passed over from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love remains in death

Romans 13:8 Do not YOU people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled [the] law.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

Galatians 6:2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.

Don't bother quoting Paul here for this argument. As for "love", that definition is explained through all the commandments. Thus, you "love" your brothers by obeying the commandments regarding how to treat them, every one of them.

1 John 4:20 If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.

[/quote]

Why don't you quote 1 John 5:3 while you're at it. And 1 John 3:4-10. As for the meaning of "brother", we probably have different understandings of that term. Those who don't obey the commandments but claim to know Christ are "Liars".

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

It seems this little verse Jesus spoke in Matthew has caused quite a controversy. It seems we're getting nowhere in debating it, so I went back and took another look at the passage. I realized that the whole passage actually starts in Matt. 5:14, and goes to verse 19. What did Jesus say before this verse? He told two parables, one about a city on a hill cannot be hidden, and one about not lighting a candle and placing it under a bucket. He then says to the disciples "so let your light shine before men, so that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father in heaven." And after the verse Jesus says, that one who breaks the least commandment and teaches others to do so is least in the kingdom of heaven, and one who does the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do so is great in the kingdom of heaven. So, it seems to me that, not only is Jesus advocating that the law has not been done away with, but that following it is what constitutes doing good, and glorifying God.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Matthew 5:14-19 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Again, I will reiterate. This says to me that Jesus was not only saying that the law was not to be abolished, but that by following it one does good works, which glorify God, and that by both doing and teaching it, one is called great in the kingdom of heaven. There's seems to be nothing here that says anything about the law no longer needing to be followed, on the contrary, it establishes that the law is to be followed, and there's great rewards for doing so.

 

[Pegg]

This indisputably demonstrates that you don't understand what the Sabbath is about. We worship every day. Sabbath is not a day set aside for worship, it's a day set aside for REST. You CAN worship on Sabbath, it's not required, what's required is to REST. And do no work. You show your love for the Lord by resting as he commands. That's the point. Many people have this misunderstanding of what Sabbath actually means. The presumptiousness of telling a Jew what Sabbath is about is staggering.

we obviously see things very differently so im not going to keep going over those points with you, but i will just comment on this point. You say the sabbath is purely a day of rest ... but what is the purpose of the rest? Does not Deut tell you that it is a day to recall the things that God did in bringing Isreal out of Egypt:

Deut 5:12 “‘Keeping the sabbath day to hold it sacred, just as Jehovah your God commanded you, ...15 And you must remember that you became a slave in the land of Egypt and Jehovah your God proceeded to bring you out from there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why Jehovah your God commanded you to carry on the sabbath day

A day to remember the saving power of God is much more then simply sitting around doing nothing for yourselves. It implies that some spiritual activity take place. And it doesnt stop there, Moses showed it had a deeper significance:
Exodus 31:16 And the sons of Israel must keep the sabbath, so as to carry out the sabbath during their generations. It is a covenant to time indefinite. 17 Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite, because in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth and on the seventh day he rested and proceeded to refresh himself.’”


And further on from this it was revealed that the day had a greater spiritual purpose then simply resting from work:
Isaiah 58:13 “If in view of the sabbath you will turn back your foot as regards doing your own delights on my holy day, and will actually call the sabbath an exquisite delight, a holy [day] of Jehovah, one being glorified, and will actually glorify it rather than doing your own ways, rather than finding what delights you and speaking a word; 14 you will in that case find your exquisite delight in Jehovah, and I will make you ride upon the high places of the earth; and I will cause you to eat from the hereditary possession of Jacob your forefather, for the mouth of Jehovah itself has spoken [it].
This day represents the day that God rested from his work... he rested to allow his purpose for mankind and the earth to be fulfilled. The christians understood that the sabbath observance was really an opportunity to enter into Gods purpose and to become a part of Gods purpose. Hebrews chapter 3 explains it.

 

[Pegg]

Again, I will reiterate. This says to me that Jesus was not only saying that the law was not to be abolished, but that by following it one does good works, which glorify God, and that by both doing and teaching it, one is called great in the kingdom of heaven. There's seems to be nothing here that says anything about the law no longer needing to be followed, on the contrary, it establishes that the law is to be followed, and there's great rewards for doing so.

what would you think to be more important...

to love God with ones full heart, or to obey the law?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

what would you think to be more important...

to love God with ones full heart, or to obey the law?

It seems to me that Jesus made no difference between them. He equated loving God with following his law.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Oh, you agree that Christians are meant to fully obey the Mosaic Law? I must have misunderstood, my bad.

Do Christians need to be circumcised?

Edit: male Christians.

 

[Shermana]

It seems to me that Jesus made no difference between them. He equated loving God with following his law.

What he said.

You'd make a great Messianic for a gentile, Dyana. Far greater than near all of those who claim to be "Christian".

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

What he said.

You'd make a great Messianic for a gentile, Dyana. Far greater than near all of those who claim to be "Christian".

Oh, I don't know about that. While I believe the New Testament teaches that believers are to follow the law, I also believe it teaches panentheism and universalism, and I'm not sure where Messianic Judaism stands on those issues.

Edit: and as a note, I also reject the trinity and original sin.