The impact of anti-BUSHism

[egroen]

It's possible Bush will go down in history as one of the worse presidents the US has had. I think it will take quite a while for his legacy to be erased.

I think he'll go down as a bad one, for sure. I think he resembles Hoover the most in that he is moving to bankrupt the federal government on the eve of the retirement of the baby boom generation, and has brought America’s reputation in the world to its lowest point in the entire history of the United States

Worst Since:
Economic damage - Hoover.
Imperialism - T Roosevelt.
Dishonesty in government - Nixon.
Incompetence - Harding.
Corruption - Grant.
Cluelessness - Coolidge.
Personal dishonesty - Clinton.
Religious arrogance - Wilson.

Considering he had, in the wake of the terrorist attacks two years ago, the greatest worldwide outpouring of goodwill the United States has enjoyed at least since World War II and squandered it, thereby transforming almost universal support for the United States into worldwide condemnation. How do you botch that up?

-Erin

 

[Booko]

So my question is - will this problem fade with Bush, or is it here to stay? Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, and so on... are abuses of law that are shocking to Europeans. It's just shocking - but has it tarnished America in general, or just George Bush's America?

It depends on whether the next Administration has a change of course on issues like detainees, torture, disengagement in the Palestian/Israeli conflict, and other global impact issues like Kyoto.

I think most of the world is ready to forgive, if there's a change of course. It would be seen as an issue of the Bush Administration's policy, not US gov't generally.

But the longer we persist in policies that are entirely self-serving and that actively damage others, the slower that forgiveness will manifest itself.

 

[Booko]

I find it sad that people look at a country based on the actions of thier leaders when they (the leaders, Bush in particular) recieve little support or liking from the countrie's public.

otoh, it's a valid comment that someone voted for the people who are in our gov't.

While as individuals we should not be held responsible, as a group, it's not unreasonable to do so.

If many of us are unwilling to take action to improve our gov't, then our "sin of omission" is also worth condemnation.

We are responsible to inform ourselves and vote for people who could be good leaders. Yes, our system make it more difficult to do this these days, but it is not impossible.

The failure of our citizens to speak out on important issues is deserving of reproach.

 

[Booko]

getting rid of Bush will nor make the bad guys go away the next president will have to face up to it , appease or shrink back to an isolation policy

I don't see it as a choice between appeasement or isolationism.

Isn't reasonable engagement a possibility?

 

[Booko]

But you'll never see one leader, with one party, ramming everything they want through government with just 50% of the people's support. That madness is reserved for dictatorships.

You put your finger exactly on the problem, Djamila.

It's unusual for the Legislative and Executive Branches to be so dominated by one party.

There are many people who view some of the actions of the gov't in this country as little more than abuse of power. EVen staunch Republicans are among those who hold these views.

 

[Booko]

all this talk of dictatorships is a silly comparison to a twice elected president 50% is a lot more than a lot of countries leaders get including my own.

You do realize, I hope, that there is a significant portion of the population here that doesn't view Bush as having been elected to begin with, and smaller portion that doesn't believe he has ever been lawfully elected.

They are not all loony conspiracy theorists. There are many questions that deserve answers that have never been looked at.

 

[PureX]

The United State's problem is not George Bush, it's greed and stupidity. George Bush is just the representative of our greed and stupidity. And these will not go away when Bush leaves office because we will just elect another representative. I'm sad to say that I believe we are witnessing the slow decline of a once great nation, because we are witnessing the slow decline of a once great people. And I say this as an American citizen.

 

[Booko]

Many of whom consider themselves well informed because they watch MTV News and Jay Leno.

The sad fact, Moon Woman, is I get better news on the "fake news" shows of Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert.

That's a sad commentary on the competence of our broadcast news, at the very least. Print hasn't quite gotten to the point of near uselessness, though it seems to be heading downhill pretty well on its own.

You'd have to prove G.W. has acted alone and outside of Constitutional law before labeling him a 'dictator'. So what's 'arbitrary'? You sound as if you believe the POTUS' entire administration is being run in a vacuum with no input or support from the rest of the government.

Compared to prior administrations, they are.

I don't think dictatorship is even a close comparison, though..

I'm still typing what I like online, and no Men in Black have showed up at my front door.

'Justice?' We are the model of justice, the ACLU notwithstanding. 'World peace?' Real dictatorships and fascist regimes (not the phony rhetoric slung mindlessly at the Bush administration for effect) will give the world peace, hands down. Nothing more peaceful than a mass grave at sunset!

Hm, there's a point.

Yes, you have to ask how peaceful would the world be if the U.S. no longer intervenes anywhere - except via long distance rocketry and the latest in unmanned weaponry to defend itself against outside threats. And no, I'm not being 'sarcastic'. I'm just looking for realistic answers to those who hate the U.S.

If we pulled back and became isolationist and refused to let arms leave the country, I seriously doubt there'd be more peace.

We're hardly the only country that has an arms industry that sells to other countries.

 

[Booko]

The United State's problem is not George Bush, it's greed and stupidity. George Bush is just the representative of our greed and stupidity. And these will not go away when Bush leaves office because we will just elect another representative. I'm sad to say that I believe we are witnessing the slow decline of a once great nation. And I say this as an American citizen.

I agree. Our real God is materialism, pure and simple. That worship has even extended into our religious thought in some big ways.

As for our decline, I think that's quite obvious now, though one could argue it's been happening for a couple of decades at least.

I console myself with the idea symbolized by the Hindu "trinity" -- to create the new, you must first destroy the old.

No, I don't mean destroy in any violent manner. But let's look at our history this way: In order to become what we've been, we had to "destroy" lots of things: kingship, aristocracy, slavery, etc.

 

[Matt]

All democracies have many parties. America has many parties, however there are only usually 2 or 3 who are capable of running a country. Bush was the more popular choice between the two main parties.

When America first went to war, he had a great deal of support. Now that times have gotten tough in Iraq, he is losing that support. Although it has gotten tough, Bush is hanging in there, its a shame his supporters don't have as much heart as he does.

Besides what you see on television, do any of you have any idea what was happening in Iraq before the war and during.

As for the politics in Europe, which European countries have better democricies than America? You can't generalise, each European country is different. Surely your not referring to all the former states of Yugoslavia. That's not exactly a fine example of leadership there.

 

[lilithu]

In October of 1996, polls in Bosnia showed that more than 98% of Bosnian Muslims viewed the United States favorably. The number dipped to 94% by 1998, and rose again to 98% following the attacks of 9/11.

Since George Bush came to power, the number has dropped to 13%.

Similar changes are obvious around the world - from Canada, to South America, to Europe, to Asia, to the Middle East, to Africa. George Bush is the symbol of a new and more powerful anti-American sentiment that has crossed all cultural and religious boundaries.

So my question is - will this problem fade with Bush, or is it here to stay? Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, and so on... are abuses of law that are shocking to Europeans. It's just shocking - but has it tarnished America in general, or just George Bush's America?

Can just getting rid of Bush make it all better, or is America ****ed in the eyes of the world for generations to come?

That all depends on what the U.S. does after he's gone.

 

[Djamila]

"My husband, and the others, were acquitted of any wrong-doing in a court of law. The judge stated it was a blemish on the judicial system of Bosnia and Herzegovina that six men so obviously innocent were brought before the courts to begin with. Still they were... sold, really... to the Americans by Bosnian authorities and remain captives at the gulag in Guantanamo to this day...

...At first, I and the other wives demanded that our husbands be immediately released and returned to Bosnia and Herzegovina with official apologies from the American and Bosnian authorities and some form of compensation. It became clear this would not happen as it became clear we were not dealing with governments that respect the laws they themselves preach relentlessly to others...

...It has been years now, and all I want is to kiss my husband once more, to welcome him home once more. He is not the only innocent person the Americans have caged. I too am also caged, as are the other wives and our children. We have not lived a day since they were stolen from us...

...All we ask is that the Americans follow their own legal obligations set out according to their own constitution and international treaties. That is all it would take for our families to be reunited. No favors, no goodwill gestures, simply honesty and justice."

- Nadja Dizdarevic, wife of a Bosnian currently being held at Guantanamo Bay.

"When you have a beautiful, young woman who does nothing but cry on the steps of the American embassy for justice, it has an effect. Nadja Dizdarevic is viewed admirably by Bosnians of every ethnic and religious heritage and the longer she suffers on our television screens, on the evening news, the deeper the hole the Americans have dug for themselves. Bosnians can forget George Bush, but they shall not forget Nadja Dizdarevic."

- Samir Kolar, political commentator FTV1.

(Following Nadja's hunger strike. She lasted for many days without food and water and then collapsed on the steps of the Bosnian government building)

"The strength and determination personified in Nadja Dizdarevic should be a lesson for all Bosnians and for the American government as well. She clearly embodies the ideals of freedom and justice we stand for..."

- Imam Dzemal Hasanbegovic

 

[lilithu]

"My husband, and the others, were acquitted of any wrong-doing in a court of law. The judge stated it was a blemish on the judicial system of Bosnia and Herzegovina that six men so obviously innocent were brought before the courts to begin with. Still they were... sold, really... to the Americans by Bosnian authorities and remain captives at the gulag in Guantanamo to this day...

...At first, I and the other wives demanded that our husbands be immediately released and returned to Bosnia and Herzegovina with official apologies from the American and Bosnian authorities and some form of compensation. It became clear this would not happen as it became clear we were not dealing with governments that respect the laws they themselves preach relentlessly to others...

...It has been years now, and all I want is to kiss my husband once more, to welcome him home once more. He is not the only innocent person the Americans have caged. I too am also caged, as are the other wives and our children. We have not lived a day since they were stolen from us...

...All we ask is that the Americans follow their own legal obligations set out according to their own constitution and international treaties. That is all it would take for our families to be reunited. No favors, no goodwill gestures, simply honesty and justice."

- Nadja Dizdarevic, wife of a Bosnian currently being held at Guantanamo Bay.

"When you have a beautiful, young woman who does nothing but cry on the steps of the American embassy for justice, it has an effect. Nadja Dizdarevic is viewed admirably by Bosnians of every ethnic and religious heritage and the longer she suffers on our television screens, on the evening news, the deeper the hole the Americans have dug for themselves. Bosnians can forget George Bush, but they shall not forget Nadja Dizdarevic."

- Samir Kolar, political commentator FTV1.

(Following Nadja's hunger strike. She lasted for many days without food and water and then collapsed on the steps of the Bosnian government building)

"The strength and determination personified in Nadja Dizdarevic should be a lesson for all Bosnians and for the American government as well. She clearly embodies the ideals of freedom and justice we stand for..."

- Imam Dzemal Hasanbegovic

So it seems like you are arguing that "America (is) ****ed in the eyes of the world for generations to come."

Well if that really is the case, if there's nothing that we can do to change that, then we might as well do whatever the **** we want right?

As I said, it depends on what America chooses to do after Bush.

 

[Djamila]

Oh I don't think America will necessarily suffer this reputation for generations, but I do believe it will last until these sorts of things are corrected at least. The way things are going now, there's no reason to believe that will not last for generations.

 

[lilithu]

Oh I don't think America will necessarily suffer this reputation for generations, but I do believe it will last until these sorts of things are corrected at least. The way things are going now, there's no reason to believe that will not last for generations.

OK, I would agree with that.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Perhaps the reason George Bush often acts alone without the United Nations and without the help of European Nations, is because there are things that need to be dealt with urgently that only George Bush is willing to deal with.

You said that with a straight face. I am impressed.

Shrub is an embarrassment. He speaks when he should be silent. He is silent when he should speak. He invades when there are still diplomatic options open. He says one thing and does another. He is the most INCOMPETENT president we have ever had.

The world is right to mock us for putting him into offic TWICE. America: the land of the morons.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You said that with a straight face. I am impressed.

Shrub is an embarrassment. He speaks when he should be silent. He is silent when he should speak. He invades when there are still diplomatic options open. He says one thing and does another. He is the most INCOMPETENT president we have ever had.

The world is right to mock us for putting him into offic TWICE. America: the land of the morons.

Most of us non Americans do not have the right so say that.
However, it is very close to our thinking.

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

Amazing, all countries have done basically the same thing at one point or another but want to point to someone else as the "bad guy" who gives a damn? No governments are innocent, and they and their supportive media (no matter how free they say they are) says.

Abu Gahraib was just the most famous (or infamous) there are many torture centers around the world for many governments, once we see collectively beyond the gold paint over the rotten wood of all the self rightous, self serving power seeking societies and mindsets can we ever achieve anything as humanity as a whole.

 

[lilithu]

Amazing, all countries have done basically the same thing at one point or another but want to point to someone else as the "bad guy" who gives a damn? No governments are innocent, and they and their supportive media (no matter how free they say they are) says.

I have no patience for this type of argument. If we've done something wrong, then we've done something wrong. Saying "well, other countries have done it too" does not make it any less wrong.

There is also a difference when a country that claims to be democratic and civilized and motivated by the desire to spread peace and justice does something like this, as opposed to a country that has never made such claims. It's called hypocrisy.

Abu Gahraib was just the most famous (or infamous) there are many torture centers around the world for many governments, once we see collectively beyond the gold paint over the rotten wood of all the self rightous, self serving power seeking societies and mindsets can we ever achieve anything as humanity as a whole.

Once we can stop pointing fingers and own up to our own atrocities for what they are, only then can we have hope of peace.

Why has Germany largely been forgiven for the Holocaust? Because they do not deny that what they did was wrong. They do not make excuses. They don't say "Well other countries have committed genocide so you can't judge us." They owned up to it and put in place measures to safeguard against it happening again.

We need to do that.

 

[lilithu]

Perhaps the reason George Bush often acts alone without the United Nations and without the help of European Nations, is because there are things that need to be dealt with urgently that only George Bush is willing to deal with.

I think the United Nations and certain European Nations need to take a long hard look at themselves before they judge the United States.

thats a very good point

So seriously, even now, with no evidence to link Saddam to Al Qaeda, and no evidence of WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, and with plenty of evidence that we've turned Iraq from an oppressive dictatorship into an unstable, terrorist-filled blood bath, and plenty of evidence (testimony from high-ranking military officials) that the administration sent our soldiers into war with grossly insufficient manpower and support despite objections by the military, you guys think that invading Iraq was something that "needed to be dealt with urgently."

There are two things that I condemn George Bush for:
1) Waging an unnecessary war and killing innocent Iraqis
2) Waging a war incompetantly and killing our soldiers

No wait, actually there's also Abu Ghraib, lying to us about Iraq before we went in, the tax cuts to the wealthy while waging war and slashing social services, the refusal to sign the Kyoto protocol, and Katrina... slashing funding to FEMA and putting an incompetant friend in charge of it, and then leaving Americans to die in the sewage. Five days in the heat and humidity and no help??! Where was his sense of urgency then? America hasn't just violated the inherent rights of people from other countries; we're doing it to our own as well.