The human spirit

[Horrorble]

I just want to confirm something, what is the JW view of the human spirit, is it separate from the body? can it live outside of the body? Thank you.

 

[kjw47]

Psalm 146:4--- His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground, in that day his thoughts do perish.

Some translations render-spirit(ruach) as breath--

If one cannot think upon death anymore--proves the spirit is not a invisible thing inside of us that comes out of the body upon death--it wouldn't do any good for it to if it cannot think. In reality it is just the lifeforce from breath.

 

[Horrorble]

Psalm 146:4--- His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground, in that day his thoughts do perish.

Some translations render-spirit(ruach) as breath--

If one cannot think upon death anymore--proves the spirit is not a invisible thing inside of us that comes out of the body upon death--it wouldn't do any good for it to if it cannot think. In reality it is just the lifeforce from breath.

What is your view of 1 Peter 3:18-19? And is the soul and spirit different? Thanks

 

[Shiranui117]

Psalm 146:4--- His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground, in that day his thoughts do perish.

Some translations render-spirit(ruach) as breath--

If one cannot think upon death anymore--proves the spirit is not a invisible thing inside of us that comes out of the body upon death--it wouldn't do any good for it to if it cannot think. In reality it is just the lifeforce from breath.

So in the JW view, it's essentially the same thing as Japanese/Chinese/Korean ki/chi/qi?

 

[Pegg]

What is your view of 1 Peter 3:18-19? And is the soul and spirit different? Thanks

the soul is the nephesh - the body of flesh

the spirit is the breath within it. Its the force of life which is given by God.


The spirits in prison, as mentioned in that verse, can only be the demons who rebelled. Mankind are said to become unconscious after they die so Jesus could not have been preaching to them.

2 Peter 2:4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar′ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment

These are the 'spirits' to whom Jesus preached.

 

[Horrorble]

the soul is the nephesh - the body of flesh

the spirit is the breath within it. Its the force of life which is given by God.


The spirits in prison, as mentioned in that verse, can only be the demons who rebelled. Mankind are said to become unconscious after they die so Jesus could not have been preaching to them.

2 Peter 2:4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar′ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment

These are the 'spirits' to whom Jesus preached.

Yeah I figured that but what I was trying to say is when Jesus died his spirit left his body and he went into the underworld where god imprisoned these angels and gave them a message. Jesus was human and his spirit separated from his body while still being a conscious Jesus, what do you make of that?

And in 2Corinthians 12:1-4 Paul says he doesn't know whether he was in the body or outside the body, if Paul never believed you can have an outer body experience, why did he say he didn't know if he was in or outside the body? Thanks

 

[Pegg]

Yeah I figured that but what I was trying to say is when Jesus died his spirit left his body and he went into the underworld where god imprisoned these angels and gave them a message. Jesus was human and his spirit separated from his body while still being a conscious Jesus, what do you make of that?

Do you believe the scriptures which state that Jesus was dead for 3 days?

And do you believe what the scriptures say the condition of the dead is? ie, Eccl 9:5 "...for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all..."

If you do, then there is a logical explanation.

1Pet 3:18*Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.
So Jesus was put to death, he remained in that condition (unconsciousness) until he was 'made alive in the spirit' and what did he do after he was made alive???

Verse19*"In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison"

If we take all the scriptures into account, we would have to conclude that Jesus was dead for 3 days and remained in that unconscious state until he was resurrected....and THEN he went and preached the the rebellious angels.

And in 2Corinthians 12:1-4 Paul says he doesn't know whether he was in the body or outside the body, if Paul never believed you can have an outer body experience, why did he say he didn't know if he was in or outside the body? Thanks

He was describing a 'supernatural vision' he was given. Perhaps he really didnt know if he had only been dreaming it or if God actually had transferred him and his entire body into the vision.

But what we do know is that it was something supernatural and it could have only happened at Gods direction. I dont believe this is an indication that we have a living spirit inside of us...the scriptures simply dont support that idea.

 

[Horrorble]

Do you believe the scriptures which state that Jesus was dead for 3 days?

And do you believe what the scriptures say the condition of the dead is? ie, Eccl 9:5 "...for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all..."

If you do, then there is a logical explanation.

1Pet 3:18*Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.
So Jesus was put to death, he remained in that condition (unconsciousness) until he was 'made alive in the spirit' and what did he do after he was made alive???

Verse19*"In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison"

If we take all the scriptures into account, we would have to conclude that Jesus was dead for 3 days and remained in that unconscious state until he was resurrected....and THEN he went and preached the the rebellious angels.

That is possible thanks.

He was describing a 'supernatural vision' he was given. Perhaps he really didnt know if he had only been dreaming it or if God actually had transferred him and his entire body into the vision.

But what we do know is that it was something supernatural and it could have only happened at Gods direction. I dont believe this is an indication that we have a living spirit inside of us...the scriptures simply dont support that idea.

How i read it is that he wasn't sure if he came out of his body and went to the third heaven it says " Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know" "whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows"

Also what did Paul mean by " Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:1-6

 

[Pegg]

That is possible thanks.


How i read it is that he wasn't sure if he came out of his body and went to the third heaven it says " Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know" "whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows"

Also what did Paul mean by " Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:1-6

Paul is refering to the fact that some christians have the hope of eventually be glorified with Christ in heaven. But until that happens, they will continue to live apart from Christ as humans on earth in their physical body.


2 Corinthians 5:1-6 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent (our body), should be dissolved (should die), we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens (a glorified spiritual body). 2*For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one (the glorified body) for us from heaven, 3*so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked. 4*In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down (with sin); because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal (dying human bodies) may be swallowed up by life. 5*Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit. 6*We are therefore always of good courage and know that, while we have our home in the body, we are absent from the Lord,


for as long as a christian is still alive in the flesh, they are absent from the glorious hope of the heavenly calling. But after they die, they will be resurrected into their new bodies and join Christ in heaven.

 

[Horrorble]

Paul is refering to the fact that some christians have the hope of eventually be glorified with Christ in heaven. But until that happens, they will continue to live apart from Christ as humans on earth in their physical body.


2 Corinthians 5:1-6 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent (our body), should be dissolved (should die), we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens (a glorified spiritual body). 2*For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one (the glorified body) for us from heaven, 3*so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked. 4*In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down (with sin); because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal (dying human bodies) may be swallowed up by life. 5*Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit. 6*We are therefore always of good courage and know that, while we have our home in the body, we are absent from the Lord,


for as long as a christian is still alive in the flesh, they are absent from the glorious hope of the heavenly calling. But after they die, they will be resurrected into their new bodies and join Christ in heaven.

But how do we know Paul is not talking about all Christians?

 

[Pegg]

But how do we know Paul is not talking about all Christians?

because the scriptures clearly state that there is a definite number who will go to heaven

Revelation 7:4*And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:


this ties in with Jesus words that he has a 'little flock' and 'other sheep'

“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring.”—John 10:16.

So we dont expect that everyone is going to heaven..... there will be a definite number who will be going. They are Jesus chosen ones. The rest of mankind will be living on earth as members of the 'other sheep'

 

[Horrorble]

because the scriptures clearly state that there is a definite number who will go to heaven

Revelation 7:4*And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:


this ties in with Jesus words that he has a 'little flock' and 'other sheep'

“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring.”—John 10:16.

So we dont expect that everyone is going to heaven..... there will be a definite number who will be going. They are Jesus chosen ones. The rest of mankind will be living on earth as members of the 'other sheep'

Ok I see, thanks

 

[Horrorble]

Ok I have another question about this when the 144, 000 go to heaven, What does the bible say about the other Christians and where they go?

 

[kjw47]

Ok I have another question about this when the 144, 000 go to heaven, What does the bible say about the other Christians and where they go?

Jesus taught truth--- The meek will inherit the earth.)They are going nowhere.

 

[Pegg]

Ok I have another question about this when the 144, 000 go to heaven, What does the bible say about the other Christians and where they go?

Matthew 5:5*“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth."

Pslam 37:29 “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”

 

[Horrorble]

Jesus taught truth--- The meek will inherit the earth.)They are going nowhere.

can you please quote the verses please?

 

[Horrorble]

Matthew 5:5*“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth."

I wonder if there are any other interprations for that, since he also says with that that the kingdom of heaven is theirs, but thanks.

Pslam 37:29 “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”

[/QUOTE]

Most translations say they will "inherit the land" probably speaking about the Jews, that god will always have a place for the jewish people.

 

[Pegg]

I wonder if there are any other interprations for that, since he also says with that that the kingdom of heaven is theirs, but thanks.

Pslam 37:29 “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”



Most translations say they will "inherit the land" probably speaking about the Jews, that god will always have a place for the jewish people.

Before Jesus came on the scene, there was no talk of a heavenly kingdom among the jewish teachers. It was all earthly (it still is for them) and it is was all about physical realities and fulfillments.

It was only when Christ arrived that he shed light on the promises being both heavenly and earthly.,


The promise to Israel was that they would become a 'kingdom of kings and priests, a holy nation' ....this promise was always expected to be fulfilled in a physical earthly reality:

Exodus 19:5*And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. 6*And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.


But when Christ came, he indicated that this promise relates to the small number who will rule as Kings and priests in a heavenly kingdom. .

“You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.” Luke 22:28-30

This kingdom is the heavenly kingdom where the selected few would rule the nations along with Christ. Some people still think this kingdom is an earthly kingdom which will rule from out of Jerusalem.
But there is a physical fulfillment of this upon the people who will live on earth forever under the rule of Gods heavenly kingdom.

 

[Horrorble]

Before Jesus came on the scene, there was no talk of a heavenly kingdom among the jewish teachers. It was all earthly (it still is for them) and it is was all about physical realities and fulfillments.

It was only when Christ arrived that he shed light on the promises being both heavenly and earthly.,


The promise to Israel was that they would become a 'kingdom of kings and priests, a holy nation' ....this promise was always expected to be fulfilled in a physical earthly reality:

Exodus 19:5*And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. 6*And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.


But when Christ came, he indicated that this promise relates to the small number who will rule as Kings and priests in a heavenly kingdom. .

“You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.” Luke 22:28-30

This kingdom is the heavenly kingdom where the selected few would rule the nations along with Christ. Some people still think this kingdom is an earthly kingdom which will rule from out of Jerusalem.
But there is a physical fulfillment of this upon the people who will live on earth forever under the rule of Gods heavenly kingdom.

So what did he mean by the 12 tribes of israel, how are christians part of the 12 tribes of israel?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Before Jesus came on the scene, there was no talk of a heavenly kingdom among the jewish teachers. It was all earthly (it still is for them) and it is was all about physical realities and fulfillments.

It was only when Christ arrived that he shed light on the promises being both heavenly and earthly.,


The promise to Israel was that they would become a 'kingdom of kings and priests, a holy nation' ....this promise was always expected to be fulfilled in a physical earthly reality:

Exodus 19:5*And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. 6*And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.


But when Christ came, he indicated that this promise relates to the small number who will rule as Kings and priests in a heavenly kingdom. .

“You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.” Luke 22:28-30

This kingdom is the heavenly kingdom where the selected few would rule the nations along with Christ. Some people still think this kingdom is an earthly kingdom which will rule from out of Jerusalem.
But there is a physical fulfillment of this upon the people who will live on earth forever under the rule of Gods heavenly kingdom.

Many times we see teachers of the law asking about eternal life, and questions about the kingdom of heaven. It wasn't something that was outside of Jewish thought. Resurrection was well believed among the Pharisees, and I'm sure the other schools had their own beliefs about some sort of kingdom of heaven, be that kingdom one that is spiritual versus physical is important.

That being said One has to ask the question what is the role the brain plays with the spirit/soul?